Falling Away

[The Nehor]

oh, well, that's no sin.

Pretty sure it is.

[Sanpitch]

Is there anyone that doesn't apply to? 

In reference to "In other words:  Why do people not believe as I do and think as I do.  I happen to know that I am right.  It's mind boggling."

 

Yes, I think some people are so totally devoted to their path in faith that they can't understand anyone not following the same.  Others are more open to errors on their part or on the part those they follow.

 

I happen to believe that we can't all be right.  Most JWs are as sure of themselves as any Mormon.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Russell C McGregor]

Don't mention the "A" word!!

[The Nehor]

oh, well, that's no sin.

Is it a sin to think that anyone who has a confederate battle flag tattoo or flies a confederate flag or adorns their car with one should be enslaved and carted off to a plantation and put to work picking tobacco?

[Mars]

Is it a sin to think that anyone who has a confederate battle flag tattoo or flies a confederate flag or adorns their car with one should be enslaved and carted off to a plantation and put to work picking tobacco?

 

i rather think they ought to be forced to forever drive a small toyota corolla instead of those awful jacked up trucks they drive, instead.  but i suppose sending them off to forced labor would be less cruel, as they see it. 

[mfbukowski]

then yell at the ones who can't shut up.  if someone says you're just an idiotic simpleton who is following along as a morg drone or some bulldink then yeah, pile on.

 

if you feel the need to generalize about people who have left and how weak they are, then you're probably best served keeping those comments to yourself.

I resemble that remark.  

 

No bombs on the porch so far....

 

Got the good old 50 caliber set up in the attic with slots in the armored roof.....  

[Russell C McGregor]

I happen to believe that we can't all be right.  Most JWs are as sure of themselves as any Mormon.

And most JW's are almost as sure of themselves as most critics of the Church of Jesus Christ.

But only almost.

[MDalby]

 

A few thoughts...

 

Life is hard but we often make it harder than it needs to be.  "It isn’t hard to keep the commandments, only when you have one foot in Babylon."

 

The natural man is so easy.  I think it is a little like the Hulk.  The natural Hulk wants to come out but we have to train our desires.  When I am unhappy with myself I generally turn to these scriptures and without exception, I am doing one of the following:

 

1 Behold, I say unto you, David, that you have feared man and have not relied on me for strength as you ought.

2 But your mind has been on the things of the earth more than on the things of me, your Maker, and the ministry whereunto you have been called; and you have not given heed unto my Spirit, and to those who were set over you, but have been persuaded by those whom I have not commanded.

(D&C 30:1-2) 

 

12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to translate, thou deliveredst up that which was sacred into the hands of a wicked man, 

13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and boasted in his own wisdom.

(D&C 3:12-3)

 

Those are easy things for me to fall into.  It takes constant effort.

[Mars]

I resemble that remark.  

 

No bombs on the porch so far....

 

Got the good old 50 caliber set up in the attic with slots in the armored roof.....  

 

i think you quoted the wrong post.

 

if it's bigger than a tacoma, you're compensating.  

[mfbukowski]

i think you quoted the wrong post.

 

if it's bigger than a tacoma, you're compensating.  

Well my anti-aircraft installation is smaller than the city of Tacoma, so I guess I am ok. 

 

Over compensating?  Who's overcompensating?  

[Tacenda]

As a parent of a gay child I have no difficulty supporting the church while loving my child and keeping a close relationship with her. We just don't discuss the issues as she knows where I stand. With this current hullabaloo however, she came out with a strong statement on FB chiding her friends for caring since they aren't part of the church anyway. Sadly her feelings about the church came out as well, as she considers it bigoted and hateful. I was surprised at that because many times she makes comments about people in the church that are very positive and when I was in the hospital she kept my home teachers updated and had long conversations with them.

It wasn't easy when I first found out about her lifestyle, especially when I got a call from my sister telling me that my daughter was on MTV announcing she was gay. That was several years ago. We both live our lives parallel to each other but doing a lot of things together as well. For as many ways as we are different we also have many things in common and laugh a lot together. We love to go out to eat and we like pretty much the same movies. I love her so much and I know that it will probably not be in this life that she returns to God but I know that he is in charge and will watch out for her and bring her back to him as part of the covenant she was born in. No parent expects when they hold that innocent beautiful baby that they or their child would face such challenges. But after the first mourning period you come to realize she is the same person you loved and that she has her agency and what makes me happy in this life is not what makes her happy.

Beautiful!

[Storm Rider]

As a parent of a gay child I have no difficulty supporting the church while loving my child and keeping a close relationship with her. We just don't discuss the issues as she knows where I stand. With this current hullabaloo however, she came out with a strong statement on FB chiding her friends for caring since they aren't part of the church anyway. Sadly her feelings about the church came out as well, as she considers it bigoted and hateful. I was surprised at that because many times she makes comments about people in the church that are very positive and when I was in the hospital she kept my home teachers updated and had long conversations with them.

 

It wasn't easy when I first found out about her lifestyle, especially when I got a call from my sister telling me that my daughter was on MTV announcing she was gay. That was several years ago. We both live our lives parallel to each other but doing a lot of things together as well. For as many ways as we are different we also have many things in common and laugh a lot together. We love to go out to eat and we like pretty much the same movies. I love her so much and I know that it will probably not be in this life that she returns to God but I know that he is in charge and will watch out for her and bring her back to him as part of the covenant she was born in. No parent expects when they hold that innocent beautiful baby that they or their child would face such challenges. But after the first mourning period you come to realize she is the same person you loved and that she has her agency and what makes me happy in this life is not what makes her happy.

 

Wonderful words and an excellent story of being a good parent.  Some children will be gay and our job is to love them in spite of their actions and choices.  Sometimes our actions, their actions, will carry us far from where we want to be.  It is at those times we all need to repent and return to the source of Living Water.  

 

I hope you continue to overlook her negative comments about the Church.  As long as she is not being offensive to you personally, I view that as her business.  Respect is a two way street and we all need to understand how to demonstrate our respect for each other without abdicating our own beliefs and standards.  Loving a gay child, relative, or neighbor does not violate our standards.  

 

I am proud to be able to see such a great example as yours of being a LDS parent. 

[Daniel2]

Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?

It's mind boggling sometimes.

 

Regarding the title of this thread: as a glass-half-full kinda guy, I think it should be called "Rising Above" ;-)

[Russell C McGregor]

Regarding the title of this thread: as a glass-half-full kinda guy, I think it should be called "Rising Above" ;-)

"Falling away" is correct.

"Rising above" is better applied to those who keep themselves unspotted from the world.

[Bobbieaware]

"Falling away" is correct."Rising above" is better applied to those who keep themselves unspotted from the world.

That's probably what the adversary told the rebellious spirits who followed him as they were being cast down to perdition: "Don't worry boys and girls -- we're not being cast down to hell, we're rising above heaven!"

[carbon dioxide]

I anticipated objections such as yours before entering my post, but I entered it without any qualifiers because I believe what I said is basically true. Over the years, virtually every member I have known who has left the Church had only a superficial knowledge of the Restored Gospel and they really didn't KNOW by the power of the Holy Ghost -- as per Moroni's challenge --that the Gospel is true. A genuine testimony of the Gospel can endure "refiner's fire episodes," such as the mockery issuing forth from the widows of the great and spacious building, without withering and dying under assault from the forces of the adversary. The mere fact that most who leave the Church will not become sons of perdition is ample evidence that they didn't really KNOW the Gospel is true. Just look at those on this board who are teetering on the edge of leaving because of the recent policy change: almost all of these have been the complainers and ark-steadiers who have been speaking out against the Church, it's doctrine and its leaders for years.

I would agree that most that leave the church will not become sons of perdition. There is a lot of ground between the Celestial Kingdom and outer darkness.    It is important to know the difference between doctrine and policy.   The handbook is not a book of doctrine but policy and policy can be easily changed.  I don't particularly agree with the policy.  I think its an overreach, one size fits all.  I think the church should look at every situation differently.  In some situations, baptism at 18 might be necessary.  In others situations, it might be fine to baptized at 8. 

 

What I don't get is those who overreact to this policy.  If the Church was true last month, why is it not true today.  If Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, how does a bad policy in 2015 change that?  If the Book of Mormon is true, how does a bad policy in 2015 change that.  If one believes this policy is bad and not inspired, all that proves is that the Brethren are not perfect and can make mistakes.   That is not a revelation.  Only Christ was perfect.  Rather than leave or get angry and protest, they should persuade that there is a better way that protects the Church and its doctrines while showing wisdom and reason with it comes to the children of various gay families. 

 

I sort of like to take the policy to the issue of, good, better, and best which has been spoken of in conference.  I think the Brethren had good intentions but took the good or better position rather than the best approach.  Treat each individual case on its own merits.  It is not like the Church is going to be flooded with gay parents with kids.  In most wards, there will not even be one case of it.

Edited November 11, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Meadowchik]

As a parent of a gay child I have no difficulty supporting the church while loving my child and keeping a close relationship with her. We just don't discuss the issues as she knows where I stand. With this current hullabaloo however, she came out with a strong statement on FB chiding her friends for caring since they aren't part of the church anyway. Sadly her feelings about the church came out as well, as she considers it bigoted and hateful. I was surprised at that because many times she makes comments about people in the church that are very positive and when I was in the hospital she kept my home teachers updated and had long conversations with them.

It wasn't easy when I first found out about her lifestyle, especially when I got a call from my sister telling me that my daughter was on MTV announcing she was gay. That was several years ago. We both live our lives parallel to each other but doing a lot of things together as well. For as many ways as we are different we also have many things in common and laugh a lot together. We love to go out to eat and we like pretty much the same movies. I love her so much and I know that it will probably not be in this life that she returns to God but I know that he is in charge and will watch out for her and bring her back to him as part of the covenant she was born in. No parent expects when they hold that innocent beautiful baby that they or their child would face such challenges. But after the first mourning period you come to realize she is the same person you loved and that she has her agency and what makes me happy in this life is not what makes her happy.

I am going to edit that post be it's unintentionally confusing, imo. Sorry.

To be clear, I was trying to say that some who identify as LGBT genuinely feel as if they are incapable of leading the life prescribed by the gospel. In an area of life that can be so all-encompassing, that can be terribly hard.

Thank you for your story and for being lovingly there for your beautiful child. I hope I can be like you when my kids grow up!

[Calm]

Any know of a more traditional LDS Parents of LGBT children support group w/o activism needed.

Have a few friends beside myself that might be able to use one.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

Any know of a more traditional LDS Parents of LGBT children support group w/o activism needed.

Have a few friends beside myself that might be able to use one.

 

I've seen groups mentioned through Sherri Park at Mormons Building Bridges on Facebook.  It may take a bit doing to find her and to request the group, but there are some there. 

[sdc999]

I would agree that most that leave the church will not become sons of perdition. There is a lot of ground between the Celestial Kingdom and outer darkness.    It is important to know the difference between doctrine and policy.   The handbook is not a book of doctrine but policy and policy can be easily changed.  I don't particularly agree with the policy.  I think its an overreach, one size fits all.  I think the church should look at every situation differently.  In some situations, baptism at 18 might be necessary.  In others situations, it might be fine to baptized at 8. 

 

What I don't get is those who overreact to this policy.  If the Church was true last month, why is it not true today.  If Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, how does a bad policy in 2015 change that?  If the Book of Mormon is true, how does a bad policy in 2015 change that.  If one believes this policy is bad and not inspired, all that proves is that the Brethren are not perfect and can make mistakes.   That is not a revelation.  Only Christ was perfect.  Rather than leave or get angry and protest, they should persuade that there is a better way that protects the Church and its doctrines while showing wisdom and reason with it comes to the children of various gay families. 

 

I sort of like to take the policy to the issue of, good, better, and best which has been spoken of in conference.  I think the Brethren had good intentions but took the good or better position rather than the best approach.  Treat each individual case on its own merits.  It is not like the Church is going to be flooded with gay parents with kids.  In most wards, there will not even be one case of it.

I'm not sure that it is overreacting to this policy alone.  With your statement of true last month, not true today, that could be applied to marriages as well.    If your marriage was good for 'time and all eternity' on day one then it obviously should be the same forever and there would be no divorce within the church.  People change or people learn more about whom they are committed to and they realize they don't like that commitment anymore. 

One may overlook some small flaws or not acknowledge they are even flaws at all in the beginning.   Over time, eyes are opened to those flaws and there may be a breaking point.  And this policy may be someone's breaking point.  

[busybee]

I'm not sure that it is overreacting to this policy alone.  With your statement of true last month, not true today, that could be applied to marriages as well.    If your marriage was good for 'time and all eternity' on day one then it obviously should be the same forever and there would be no divorce within the church.  People change or people learn more about whom they are committed to and they realize they don't like that commitment anymore. 

One may overlook some small flaws or not acknowledge they are even flaws at all in the beginning.   Over time, eyes are opened to those flaws and there may be a breaking point.  And this policy may be someone's breaking point.  

I don't think the comparison of marriage is a good one.

Truth never changes. What was true today will remain true forever.

Individuals in a marriage can and do change. The man I am married to today is definitely not the same man I married 30 years ago. And I'm not the same woman either. Neither would I want to be. We have grown and progressed , into better people. Some individuals in marriages regress, rather than progress. That is why they fail. This has nothing to do with eternal truths.

[sdc999]

I don't think the comparison of marriage is a good one.

Truth never changes. What was true today will remain true forever.

Individuals in a marriage can and do change. The man I am married to today is definitely not the same man I married 30 years ago. And I'm not the same woman either. Neither would I want to be. We have grown and progressed , into better people. Some individuals in marriages regress, rather than progress. That is why they fail. This has nothing to do with eternal truths.

But what is the truth?

Is the truth what you were told by the missionaries?  Is the truth what you were told by the bishop?  Is the truth what you were told by your parents?

 

Over time, I found quite a few things that were very untrue from all individuals above.  Kids have to grow up and depend on their parents to lead them and to lean upon them for truths.  Converts do the same with missionaries and bishops and others they trust within the church.  At the point where I realized that many of the things that were told to me as truths ended up being folklore, I had to basically start over with my decision as to whether it was the right church.  At that point in my life, I came to a different conclusion with study, conversation with others and yes, even prayer.

[Deborah]

To be clear, I was trying to say that some who identify as LGBT genuinely feel as if they are incapable of leading the life prescribed by the gospel. In an area of life that can be so all-encompassing, that can be terribly hard.

 

 

I thought that was what you meant but I have seen so many parents of such children think they need to march with them, etc. I wanted to make clear that there are parents who sustain the church leaders but still have a relationship with their children.

 

Cal, I would love to know of such a support group.

[busybee]

But what is the truth?

Is the truth what you were told by the missionaries?  Is the truth what you were told by the bishop?  Is the truth what you were told by your parents?

 

 

Truth is what is confirmed by the Holy Spirit, no matter where you heard it from. We should never just take someone's word that what they are saying is true. The missionaries never tell the people they are teaching to just take their word for it. Neither should parents tell their children that. My parents taught me the principles of the Gospel and made sure to tell me to find out the truth of what they were teaching for myself.

 

I stand by my point. You cannot compare a marriage that ends in a divorce with someone who no longer believes the truth.

[SmileyMcGee]

Why is the scriptures can show us the events that lead to apostasy and our leaders can warn us and yet people ignore all those warnings and end up in apostasy exactly as they were warned not to?

It's mind boggling sometimes.

What about it specifically boggles your mind?