Women And Priesthood Essay

[Buckeye]

Meadow

Let me run this by you.

Are you aware that women receive superior temple blessings to men? It is quite clear in the initiatory ordinances- ? Maybe go with your husband, do some and then compare in the celestial room?

Anyway, what if women do not need the experience of "presiding" as part of moving beyond the male ego to become righteous leaders who lead in love. Clearly men need such training to learn how to quit beating our chests gorilla style and get to play "boss" while yet learning that to be a leader one must be a servant, as Christ taught.

I think women know that naturally and why they end up often being the de-facto leaders of their families in every way, through service

Suppose Priesthood is to teach men to lead in love, it is a schoolmaster like the law of Moses was, to teach us just that?

It is a preparatory Gospel to allow us to become part of a Divine Pair without having our domineering biological instincts, which were necessary in our evolutionary past. Somebody had to go slay the beast and keep the other tribes from stealing our people and somebody had to take care of the babies and obviously women were equipped mentally and physically for the latter.

Now things have changed.

Men and women are equal partners but yet men need to learn how to lead by being servants, and that is the function of the priestood.

My wife totally buys this and so do a few other women I have shared this with. In fact she pretty much came up with the idea. I suppose it is politically incorrect because people see it as a variation of the "women don't need the priesthood" argument.

But it is a fact that in the temple, they don't. They get given instantly what men have to spend a lifetime learning, and it says so.

 

I can only share my personal experience, that I've seen many women become better people and closer to Christ by presiding. Women preside all the time. RS PRESIDENT, Primary PRESIDENT, Laurel Class PRESIDENT, Seminary class PRESIDENT, and many other roles that don't necessarily include the name "president" - for example, Temple Matron, Mission President Wife (we're still working on the title for that one), and so forth. 

 

The prime example I've seen is my own wife. As she presides in the home - i.e., calls on prayers, organizes FHE, calls the family to scripture study, etc. - she has grown into a stronger, self-assured, and righteous example for our children. It's been really wonderful to see. And it's the same thing that I see happen with fathers who preside (as I do as well). Women need these opportunities for growth just as much as men. And when they're given the opportunities, the generally accept them and all are blessed in abundance. 

[HappyJackWagon]

Handbook 2 (section 4.3) provides that the Relief Society President meets with the Priesthood Executive Committee at the invitation of the Bishop.

 

 

Our Relief Society President has been meeting regularly with the PEC for several years now.

I think there's a different dynamic when someone is invited as a guest to someone elses meeting as opposed to being a sitting member of the committee. They went so far as to change the name of the council at the general level but I haven't seen anything similar at the local level.

[mfbukowski]

This just in... some quotes about women participating in priesthood healing blessings in the early church.

https://theboard.byu.edu/questions/56934/

My wife has participated with me in priesthood blessings. I think it's a great idea. Edited October 29, 2015 by mfbukowski

[HappyJackWagon]

My wife has participated with me in priesthood blessings. I think it's a great idea.

Can you talk more about that? Women are often denied the opportunity to simply hold their baby during the naming and blessing. How did leaders respond to your wife standing in on blessings?

 

There's an interesting story of Pres. Kimball's wife standing in on a healing blessing for him while he was in the hospital, but I'm not familiar with many contemporary(ish) examples of when this is considered an acceptable practice.

[Buckeye]

Can you talk more about that? Women are often denied the opportunity to simply hold their baby during the naming and blessing. How did leaders respond to your wife standing in on blessings?

 

There's an interesting story of Pres. Kimball's wife standing in on a healing blessing for him while he was in the hospital, but I'm not familiar with many contemporary(ish) examples of when this is considered an acceptable practice.

 

I'd love to hear about this too.

[BlueDreams]

Thank heavens neither have I and good thing that wasn't what I was trying to say....

But enough about the mixed up young lady.

Then why bring up her sexual problems in the first place as somehow connecting to priesthoood ordination or how we teach about priesthood??? It just seems sloppy at best if not inappropriate 

 

My point is... male only priesthood has been pounded so hard into these young ladys heads that they are becoming spiritualy handicapt.

 

My wife and own mother both thought I was Apostitizing from the church when I brought up the fact that women used to give healing blessing and exercise that spiritual gift. They didn't even know they could give heeling blessings if only in the name of Jesus because it's been pounded into their head so hard that healing blessings are strictly to be done by super special male only priesthood holders with the right decoder rings.

 

I've reminded both of them that they wear the garb of a Melchezidek Priestess and they perform healing blessings in the temple. So If they can do it inside the temple all the better to do it outside as well where its needed even more in a fallen temporal world.

 

What duties and responsibilities are young women given on a per-sunday basis? Hardly anything. Teaching a class maybe.

 

My girls want and need more to do, why are we tying their hands, stunting their spiritual growth and sending the message that boys are better than girls because they belong to the special club for boys only?

 

 

 

All of these problems can be solved without having to change who is ordained to offices in the priesthood. It would come from clarifying teachings about priesthood and women's role in it (which the essay indicates a continuing evolution of trying to do that). It would include expanding the roles, duties, and sense of responsibilities to YW (which is also slowly happening. For example, I went to a ward this week where three sister missionaries spoke and the YW lesson came from PMG in preparation of knowing that a number of these girls would likely shortly become missionaries statistically). It also mean expanding and thinking about why we practice the current way we do and dispensing more basic knowledge about it. 

 

Male-only priesthood is not the sole cause for why these things have happened over time. I resonate a bit with the idea of having male-only priesthood can lead to a spiritual blind-spot....but I wouldn't call it a handicap per se and I didn't get my blindspot as a child solely from the way the church teaches. It simply had little place with me growing up since my family situation didn't warrant that. I was the oldest, my next closest brother in age never got past receiving aaronic priesthood ordination and was 15 when I left home, and my step-father was not super spiritual. I had exactly one....maybe two father blessings ever and my only personal experience with priesthood entailed 1 calling to the laurel's presidency and one Patriarchal blessing. So where a guy's hands were on my head as a teen can literally be counted on one hand. I say it wasn't a spiritual handicap, because I did my own thing...and frankly in my immediate family I was the most spiritually consistent. I sought out God, prayed earnestly, read my scriptures, and developed my talents, etc. Priesthood was just a dude thing and I did my thing and felt blessed by the Lord for it. Sometimes our paths intersected and I also felt blessed for that. But there simply wasn't a direct gift or attribute that I cannot develop without priesthood ordination.

 

Currently many of my views have changed from when I was a teen about the priesthood. I have learned far more about the priesthood now in my studies and Temple-worship and have come to the realization that I have part in the priesthood, have for years, and it's not just a dude thing. But I still haven't found a single talent, skill, or capacity that I cannot develop without ordination into priesthood office. (I should also say I'm one of those women who feels she has the priesthood and have been ordained within it already due in large part to the temple). The language and practices we've assumed around these gifts have been unnecessarily gendered and compartmentalized to male oriented offices by our culture and some practices...and that, to me, is the major problem.....NOT the actual office ordination. I've been thinking about that since I was a young girl and received my PB. I remember feeling a discrepancy, because some of the language in it describing me fit what I believed were male calls, because that's what we associate with them....not only in LDS terms, but in world terms as well.    

 

The incongruency, IMO, is being bridged slowly....but that bridge to me isn't leading to receiving male offices and male authority but expanding the utility of female ones and recognizing the necessity of female authority in all spheres of church influence. 

 

There was a Matriarchal Priesthood order of Aaronic women too ya know. (The Daughters of Aaron) Elizabeth, Jesus' aunt belonged to that order.(Luke 1:5) What did they do?

 

 

I don't know if that verse proves a matriarchal priesthood order. It would be cool if it did, but it probably points out more that men and women both were important in carrying on the lines and practices of the people. A lot of the OT passages about women also point to that for me as well as a number of the BoM ones. But I still haven't found one that convinces me that women should have the exact same priestly roles as men. But that their priestess roles are needed and ingrained in having a zion society.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited October 29, 2015 by BlueDreams

[KevinG]

My wife has participated with me in priesthood blessings. I think it's a great idea.

 

There is not a soul in my household that is not asked to pray with me and exercise their faith in support when I give blessings.  It is something we have always instinctively done.  I also often ask my wife if I missed anything while voicing the blessing.  She is in every way a prophetess in our household.

 

If someone tells me the priesthood is exclusionary or men presiding in homes is misogyny my first suspicion is that there are deeper dysfunctions going on in their family or partnerships with their spouse, or that they have experienced dysfunctional family or ward relationships.

[Buckeye]

There is not a soul in my household that is not asked to pray with me and exercise their faith in support when I give blessings.  It is something we have always instinctively done.  I also often ask my wife if I missed anything while voicing the blessing.  She is in every way a prophetess in our household.

 

If someone tells me the priesthood is exclusionary or men presiding in homes is misogyny my first suspicion is that there are deeper dysfunctions going on in their family or partnerships with their spouse, or that they have experienced dysfunctional family or ward relationships.

 

That's a good practice. I do the same prior to any milestone blessings I give my children (confirmation, ordination, back to school, etc.) I'd prefer to have my wife's hands in the circle for these events, but until that day at least my kids can hear her words through my mouth.

[mfbukowski]

There is not a soul in my household that is not asked to pray with me and exercise their faith in support when I give blessings. It is something we have always instinctively done. I also often ask my wife if I missed anything while voicing the blessing. She is in every way a prophetess in our household.

If someone tells me the priesthood is exclusionary or men presiding in homes is misogyny my first suspicion is that there are deeper dysfunctions going on in their family or partnerships with their spouse, or that they have experienced dysfunctional family or ward relationships.

EXACTLY!

[Bomgeography]

This I something the church needs to do

[Meadowchik]

Meadow

Let me run this by you.

Are you aware that women receive superior temple blessings to men? It is quite clear in the initiatory ordinances- ? Maybe go with your husband, do some and then compare in the celestial room?

Anyway, what if women do not need the experience of "presiding" as part of moving beyond the male ego to become righteous leaders who lead in love. Clearly men need such training to learn how to quit beating our chests gorilla style and get to play "boss" while yet learning that to be a leader one must be a servant, as Christ taught.

I think women know that naturally and why they end up often being the de-facto leaders of their families in every way, through service

Suppose Priesthood is to teach men to lead in love, it is a schoolmaster like the law of Moses was, to teach us just that?

It is a preparatory Gospel to allow us to become part of a Divine Pair without having our domineering biological instincts, which were necessary in our evolutionary past. Somebody had to go slay the beast and keep the other tribes from stealing our people and somebody had to take care of the babies and obviously women were equipped mentally and physically for the latter.

Now things have changed.

Men and women are equal partners but yet men need to learn how to lead by being servants, and that is the function of the priestood.

My wife totally buys this and so do a few other women I have shared this with. In fact she pretty much came up with the idea. I suppose it is politically incorrect because people see it as a variation of the "women don't need the priesthood" argument.

But it is a fact that in the temple, they don't. They get given instantly what men have to spend a lifetime learning, and it says so.

 

 

That will be something to contemplate when I have the opportunity to go to the temple.

 

I'm starting to shy away from definitive theories about why, opting to leave things open.  However, I do feel very strongly that the differences of men and women shouldn't be glossed over and cannot be wiped away by decree. Thus, it seems plausible to me that there would be major differences in the way the Church approaches our offices and callings on earth, as men and women.  Indeed, that we are counseled and led in different ways would seem to be a moral, and then pastoral, necessity.

 

Socially, whether we like it or not, we are, as you described, dealing with thousands of years of instinctive and learned divisions of labor.  That must mean something.  More and more, I've been thinking that there is a whole lot in our DNA that is activated in one of many ways, or that lays dormant, waiting to be triggered.  That must mean something, too.

 

So I will ponder what you've suggested.  Thanks to you and to Sister MfBukowski for both your wisdom!

[Meadowchik]

This just in... some quotes about women participating in priesthood healing blessings in the early church.

 

 

 

https://theboard.byu.edu/questions/56934/

 

Part of what hits me is the question of power.  Do I, as a woman, have power?

 

This may sound silly, but as a child, I would get scared at night.  I would be afraid of some evil force being able to hurt me.  At some point, though, I hooked on to Jesus's words and admonishment, "Get thee behind me, Satan," and I used it.

 

There's been times of emergencies when I've asked God to send angels to the aid of others, and when I've asked a blessing upon a sick child.

 

Without hesitation, yes, I feel powerful.

[Tacenda]

LOL you still with that? Gladly 99% of active LDS women don't give a da about receiving the priesthood. They are happy and that is what matters.

Ordaining women to the priesthood won't solve the gender pay gap and many other issues that do actually matter.

If it was opened up to women as a possibility it may be different, right now the notion of women holding the PH is too foreign.

[carbon dioxide]

If it was opened up to women as a possibility it may be different, right now the notion of women holding the PH is too foreign.

Women gain virtually nothing by being ordained except with expectations to attend more meetings than they currently attend.  In terms of eternity, they gain absolutely nothing. 

 

If a woman dies faithful, she can obtain exaltation.  If women were to be ordained and die faithfully, they can obtain exaltation.  Exaltation is exaltation.  There is no bonus points or exaltation plus awaiting women who are ordained to the priesthood.  So women gain ZERO on the eternal perspective if they are ordained.  God can't give anything beyond exaltation to anyone.  The big difference that women can expect if they are ordained is once again, attendance at more meetings.  Perhaps women like meetings and desire more meetings.   I don't know why but perhaps I am the crazy one that wants to be involved in fewer meetings.

Edited October 31, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

"The big difference that women can expect if they are ordained is once again, attendance at more meetings"

So is that all that Priesthood gives men in the here and now? More meetings? There is nothing personally gained by being able to help bless someone through baptism and participating in providing other priesthood ordinances?

It is so strange to me when people act like the Priesthood is a burden in this life and not a blessing. It is like telling someone imo they shouldn't care about not having kids because they will be able to have all the blessings of children the next life and parenthood is only more laundry, more dirty dishes, more hassle right now.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

Women gain virtually nothing by being ordained except with expectations to attend more meetings than they currently attend.

 

You know, it has occurred to me for a while that you can tell a lot about a person who is in favor of ordaining women by asking them "what a woman needs ordination for".  Pretty much all of the possible answers give you a direct insight into the priorities, understanding, and perspective of that person.

 

It's really kind of fascinating.

 

So those in favor - boil it down for us opposed - "For what purpose does a woman need to be ordained to a priesthood office?"

And yes, your response will be indicative of many things.

[Calm]

What if they want it because they believe it will give them greater happiness, peace and rest and help them be a greater follower of righteousness?

[JLHPROF]

What if they want it because they believe it will give them greater happiness, peace and rest and help them be a greater follower of righteousness?

 

We can all draw our own conclusions from each of the many reasons that have been given.

I think this one is probably the most pure (but I doubt the most prevalent if people were being honest with themselves).

 

I'm also not convinced doctrinally of priesthood being needed to achieve that goal.  None of these things require priesthood.

[Calm]

Not the only thing undoubtedly, but if it was not very useful in getting there and other things would have sufficed than why did Abraham think it was so important in achieving those goals?

Why do you think most men desire the Priesthood?

Edited October 31, 2015 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

Not the only thing undoubtedly, but if it was not very useful in getting there and other things would have sufficed than why did Abraham think it was so important in achieving those goals?

Why do you think most men desire the Priesthood?

 

Because God commanded it.  And obedience is the first law of heaven, not self motivation.

If the desire for priesthood is motivated to serve oneself and not to obey Gods designs the motivation is incorrect.

 

Abraham wanted the blessings of obedience (see Isaac and the ram).

If God hasn't commanded women to obey then no blessing would be attached.

[Calm]

Where is Abraham commanded to get the Priesthood before he desires it?

[Bobbieaware]

Where is Abraham commanded to get the Priesthood before he desires it?

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, AND TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. (Abraham 1)

[bluebell]

So those in favor - boil it down for us opposed - "For what purpose does a woman need to be ordained to a priesthood office?"

And yes, your response will be indicative of many things.

The same question can be asked of men. For what purpose does a man need to be ordained to a priesthood office?

[JLHPROF]

The same question can be asked of men. For what purpose does a man need to be ordained to a priesthood office?

 

See above.  Obedience.

[JLHPROF]

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, AND TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. (Abraham 1)

 

Yes, this.  Thank you Bobbieaware.

The same reason Abraham entered plural marriage and Sarah gave Hagar to him.  Because it was the law.

 

D&C 130

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

No law decreed before the foundations of the world = no blessing attached.