Women And Priesthood Essay

[Calm]

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, AND TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. (Abraham 1)

Possible interpretation, but I don't see it as having to refer to Priesthood but rather the ability to better keep God's commandments which may not at that time have included the Priesthood, just as Prof pointed out Priesthood doesn't have to be the only way to find greater happiness, etc.

Prof, If you insist that part must be read as an imperative (the only way to keep the commandments he was is through receiving the Priesthood...thus it means those commandments were to receive the Priesthood), I don't see how you can claim that there are other ways to receive the peace and happiness Abraham was looking for without having the Priesthood.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Calm

[bluebell]

See above.  Obedience.

 

So that it? 

 

That means that those people who believe that it's God's will that women are ordained can give that same answer.

[Tacenda]

I don't want the PH, but know women online who lean toward it or want the PH. They appreciate what it means...maybe some men feel it a burden but might miss it if they no longer have it. Doesn't it give men a more direct line to God and His authority? Or power of descernment...why wouldn't a woman want that?

Edited October 31, 2015 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

So that it?

That means that those people who believe that it's God's will that women are ordained can give that same answer.

Except no such commandment exists.

[JLHPROF]

Prof, If you insist that part must be read as an imperative (the only way to keep the commandments he was is through receiving the Priesthood...thus it means those commandments were to receive the Priesthood), I don't see how you can claim that there are other ways to receive the peace and happiness Abraham was looking for without having the Priesthood.

Except the commandment was given to Abraham, not Sarah or Hagar. Law obedience receives blessings. If the law doesn't apply no blessing would be received, unless For instance you think fundamentalists receive the blessings attached to plural marriage.

[Bobbieaware]

Possible interpretation, but I don't see it as having to refer to Priesthood but rather the ability to better keep God's commandments which may not at that time have included the Priesthood, just as Prof pointed out Priesthood doesn't have to be the only way to find greater happiness, etc.

Prof, If you insist that part must be read as an imperative (the only way to keep the commandments he was is through receiving the Priesthood...thus it means those commandments were to receive the Priesthood), I don't see how you can claim that there are other ways to receive the peace and happiness Abraham was looking for without having the Priesthood.

Through the scriptures, Abrahan KNEW receiving the priesthood was a commandment (except for those who were then banned from receiving it).

14 Which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah;

15 And from Noah till Enoch, through the lineage of their fathers;

16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, WHO RECEIVED THE PRIESTHOOD BY THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD , by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—

17 Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years. (D&C 84)

Tthe scriptures are full of verses that declare it's a commandment from God for men to receive the priesthood. If you're still not convinced, I'll cite them for you.

[Calm]

Except the commandment was given to Abraham, not Sarah or Hagar. Law obedience receives blessings. If the law doesn't apply no blessing would be received, unless For instance you think fundamentalists receive the blessings attached to plural marriage.

You are interpreting the commandment to include desire and receive Priesthood, there is nothing that requires that interpretation imo.

There are commandments that are identified as being given to men that are asking about them, but we assume the commandments apply to not only all men, but women as well.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Calm

[bluebell]

Except no such commandment exists.

There is no commandment for women to pay tithing, for example, or serve missions, yet women do both.

I'm not in agreement with the push for ordaining women, but I don't think your "what purpose does it serve" question is as much of a smoking gun against those who do as you think it is.

We often do things and believe things in this church without knowing "why". Having an answer for every "why" has never been a good way to determine if something is doctrinally sound.

[carbon dioxide]

See above.  Obedience.

Yes.   If priesthood ordination was completely optional and I could still receive all the eternal blessings without being ordained, I would take that route.  In my view why ask for more responsibility and accountability when it is not necessary?

[carbon dioxide]

"The big difference that women can expect if they are ordained is once again, attendance at more meetings"

So is that all that Priesthood gives men in the here and now? More meetings? There is nothing personally gained by being able to help bless someone through baptism and participating in providing other priesthood ordinances?

It is so strange to me when people act like the Priesthood is a burden in this life and not a blessing. It is like telling someone imo they shouldn't care about not having kids because they will be able to have all the blessings of children the next life and parenthood is only more laundry, more dirty dishes, more hassle right now.

Everyone is different.  I understand baptism is important but whether it is done by me or someone else really does not matter to me.  When my son is ordained a teacher, if it is not done by me but someone else, I am just fine with it.  Hey I don't mind if women are ordained.  If it means less work for me, that sounds great.   The reality is if you look at what the average priesthood holder does, less than 5% of the time they are doing blessing or ordinances. 

Edited October 31, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Calm]

So you don't care about the happiness, peace and rest and greater knowledge and righteousness that can be yours now through the Priesthood?

 

Serious question as this kind of response just bewilders me given how the Priesthood is described by our leaders.

[Maedros]

What if they want it because they believe it will give them greater happiness, peace and rest and help them be a greater follower of righteousness?

 

If this is their desire and belief, then they are deceived and understand not the scriptures. Matt 24: 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, [and false ideologies such as women lobbying for the right to bare the priesthood) and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Isn't this notion of women bearing the priesthood a sign of the elect being deceived? 

[Maedros]

The same question can be asked of men. For what purpose does a man need to be ordained to a priesthood office?

 

Really? Search the scriptures.

[Maedros]

Gordon B. Hinckley, prior President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:

“Women do not hold the priesthood because the Lord has put it that way. It is part of His program. Women have a very prominent place in this Church. Men hold the priesthood offices of the Church. But women have a tremendous place in this Church. They have their own organization. It was started in 1842 by the Prophet Joseph Smith, called the Relief Society, because its initial purpose was to administer help to those in need. It has grown to be, I think, the largest women’s organization in the world... They have their own offices, their own presidency, their own board. That reaches down to the smallest unit of the Church everywhere in the world...

“The men hold the priesthood, yes. But my wife is my companion. In this Church the man neither walks ahead of his wife nor behind his wife but at her side. They are co-equals in this life in a great enterprise.”

[Bobbieaware]

Really? Search the scriptures.

Whenever the subject of female ordination to the priesthood comes up, I wonder why those who push for this change don"t stick with what's already been revealed on the subject. And what has been revealed on this subject? It's that one day women will be ordained to be PRIESTESSES into their husbands, whatever that means. So if the ordain women movement had been smart they should have pressed the Church leaders for a fuller revelation of what it means to be a priestess and not make demands that women be ordained to the all-male priesthood.

The big mistake these OW folks have made is that their push for female ordination to the priesthood is affirmed upon the modern feminist dogma that there should be no differences of substance between men and women, and that the roles of men and women should be fully interchangeable in all things in a brave new world. But the Family Proclamation makes it clear that by divine design there will always be important differences between the roles of men and women that will exist throughout eternity.

Now some feminists may say the titles priest and priestess are terms of distinction without a difference, but I don't think it's likely that will turn out to be true. I personally believe when the nature of the female priestesshood is fully revealed it's very likely it will be understood to be a parallel and complimentary organization of divine authority to the priesthood of men and not one and the same thing. So will the OW people be wise and change course and begin to push for a fuller revelation of the roles of priestesses within the divine priestesshood? I doubt it.

[Steve-o]

Whenever the subject of female ordination to the priesthood comes up, I wonder why those who push for this change don"t stick with what's already been revealed on the subject. And what has been revealed on this subject? It's that one day women will be ordained to be PRIESTESSES into their husbands, whatever that means. So if the ordain women movement had been smart they should have pressed the Church leaders for a fuller revelation of what it means to be a priestess and not make demands that women be ordained to the all-male priesthood.

The big mistake these OW folks have made is that their push for female ordination to the priesthood is affirmed upon the modern feminist dogma that there should be no differences of substance between men and women, and that the roles of men and women should be fully interchangeable in all things in a brave new world. But the Family Proclamation makes it clear that by divine design there will always be important differences between the roles of men and women that will exist throughout eternity.

Now some feminists may say the titles priest and priestess are terms of distinction without a difference, but I don't think it's likely that will turn out to be true. I personally believe when the nature of the female priestesshood is fully revealed it's very likely it will be understood to be a parallel and complimentary organization of divine authority to the priesthood of men and not one and the same thing. So will the OW people be wise and change course and begin to push for a fuller revelation of the roles of priestesses within the divine priestesshood? I doubt it.

As you said, we don't really know what it means for a woman to be a priestess unto her husband. Does that mean that she holds the priesthood of God or the priesthood of Husband who will one day be exalted?

 

It seems to be a pretty big difference. If priesthood is the power and authority to act for _____________ (fill in the blank) it would seem that having God's authority would be more meaningful than having authority to act for a husband.

[Lachoneus]

Isn't this notion of women bearing the priesthood a sign of the elect being deceived? 

 

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”  (3 History of the Church 385 (2 July 1839, 7uMontrose, Iowa))

[Bobbieaware]

As you said, we don't really know what it means for a woman to be a priestess unto her husband. Does that mean that she holds the priesthood of God or the priesthood of Husband who will one day be exalted?

 

It seems to be a pretty big difference. If priesthood is the power and authority to act for _____________ (fill in the blank) it would seem that having God's authority would be more meaningful than having authority to act for a husband.

If you have been to the temple, then you know the wording pertaining to nature of priestesses is not mine. But in any case, yours is a moot point because in the eternal world the husband WILL be a God. At any rate, I believe it would be much wiser for OW to press for a fuller revelation of the role of priestesses -- something we know for certain is already part of our doctrine -- rather than pressing to be ordained priests.

I wonder if it ever dawned on anyone that one of the reasons why the full role of the priestesshood has not been yet been revealed is because it has something to do with divine authority flowing from Heavenly Mother, and because of its extreme sacredness the world isn't to hear about that yet.

[Steve-o]

If you have been to the temple, then you know the wording pertaining to nature of priestesses is not mine. But in any case, yours is a moot point because in the eternal world the husband WILL be a God. At any rate, I believe it would be much wiser for OW to press for a fuller revelation of the role of priestesses -- something we know for certain is already part of our doctrine -- rather than pressing to be ordained priests.

I wonder if it ever dawned on anyone that one of the reasons why the full role of the priestesshood has not been yet been revealed is because it has something to do with divine authority flowing from Heavenly Mother, and because of its extreme sacredness the world isn't to hear about that yet.

I don't agree with your point that the issue is moot. Isn't it different to have authority from God instead of just authority from your spouse. In fact, doesn't that sound a little sexist? As a husband I don't grant my wife authority to act for me and she doesn't grant me authority to act for her. That's just a given. That's what marriage is. We work together.

 

Your last point sounds okay but it's just a guess. It would be really nice to get some doctrine about this. It seems like this essay would have been a really good place to address the priestesshood.

[Bobbieaware]

I don't agree with your point that the issue is moot. Isn't it different to have authority from God instead of just authority from your spouse. In fact, doesn't that sound a little sexist? As a husband I don't grant my wife authority to act for me and she doesn't grant me authority to act for her. That's just a given. That's what marriage is. We work together.

Your last point sounds okay but it's just a guess. It would be really nice to get some doctrine about this. It seems like this essay would have been a really good place to address the priestesshood.

You fell into my trap

Edited November 3, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[BlueDreams]

I wonder if it ever dawned on anyone that one of the reasons why the full role of the priestesshood has not been yet been revealed is because it has something to do with divine authority flowing from Heavenly Mother, and because of its extreme sacredness the world isn't to hear about that yet.

 

I mean this in the best way possible, but whenever the idea that we don't have knowledge about the role of women and their power in the eternities is due to "extreme sacredness" that the world isn't ready for I think it sounds more like an "extreme" cop-out. We have several truths and points that the world would (and does) reject and have from the beginning. This hasn't stopped the Lord from giving it to us. Besides, the research being done and the scriptures themselves points to the idea that Mother (and ergo feasibly priestesshood) had place in the ancient worship/church. We lost it due to apostasy. If this is the restoration of all things, IMHO, it cannot be complete until we've fully restored women, their eternal roles, and Mother to their place. I feel that we have whispers of that, both in the temple and with the RS organization. But we do not have the fullness of it. And though others have brought this up (I feel it has come up in just about every discussion of HM I've ever experienced), it still ring hollow.

 

 

With luv,

BD

[Storm Rider]

I mean this in the best way possible, but whenever the idea that we don't have knowledge about the role of women and their power in the eternities is due to "extreme sacredness" that the world isn't ready for I think it sounds more like an "extreme" cop-out. We have several truths and points that the world would (and does) reject and have from the beginning. This hasn't stopped the Lord from giving it to us. Besides, the research being done and the scriptures themselves points to the idea that Mother (and ergo feasibly priestesshood) had place in the ancient worship/church. We lost it due to apostasy. If this is the restoration of all things, IMHO, it cannot be complete until we've fully restored women, their eternal roles, and Mother to their place. I feel that we have whispers of that, both in the temple and with the RS organization. But we do not have the fullness of it. And though others have brought this up (I feel it has come up in just about every discussion of HM I've ever experienced), it still ring hollow.

 

 

With luv,

BD

 

What do you think the fullness of it looks like?

[BlueDreams]

Really? Search the scriptures.

 

I think you're missing the point. It's more to the disdain to asserting that the priesthood isn't necessary for women and/or that holding the priesthood offices (aaronic/melchizedek) is really inert, an male obedience factor, or somehow a negative burden that no one would really want (except, you know, Abraham....crazy man). It's a really poor argument for why women shouldn't hold priesthood office.

 

And, I'm not BB, but I would assume that her question is that the purposes of a man being ordained to the Priesthood are often the reasons some women desire it as well. Desiring the priesthood for men (and in particular, the case of Abraham) was not all about obedience...it was the reception of blessings from heaven, greater knowledge, greater true power, and seeking after God. I do believe that many of the women want it, because they searched the scriptures, saw the blessings of the priesthood, and earnestly desire that. They feel a deficit. I do too....I just hold a number of underlying assertions that makes me feel a different path for addressing that deficit is needed.

 

The point is, people can have pure intentions for wanting priesthood office.  And the purposes for a man to need the Power of God are not different to why a woman would. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited November 3, 2015 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

What do you think the fullness of it looks like?

 

In aggregate, I don't know, since I'm also learning line upon line and grace for grace. In someways I can see where the church is trying to move the body towards: a greater recognition and utility of women as equal partners not only in the home but in church decisions/structures. I think there will be greater emphasis and practice of having women not only as encouraged to be invited to things like PEC or other aspects of church leadership meetings but as necessary partners in addressing the needs of the church. I also think it will entail a cultural recognition of women's revelations as pertinent in directing us. There are small moves to this that points to the church doing so, but I still think we have a ways to go.

 

Personally, that's been an on and off search for me. Some of it is a research/study based exploration. It started by exploring the women we do have in scriptures, particularly in the OT. So for example, I like the imagery in the story of Huldah. You had the high priest, king's servants, and scribe coming to this woman for prophetic clarification. They represent the structural hierarchy of Israel meeting with a woman prophetess for direction to scriptures. Likewise the story of Deborah talks of the pertinence of female leaders, down the the victory would be to a woman for the conquering of Israel's enemies. There is Mary as a direct parallel to the Tree of Life (trees were also an ancient symbol of HM) and pertinent/integrative to being a light in the World of darkness. Or Eve in her mutual role of teaching with Adam their children and expounding revelation given to Adam with her own revelation from God to bring a full picture of truths. Recently I've been reading references to trees and wisdom to see more of Heavenly Mother...doing so has also given me a greater sense of the Divine feminine.

 

But it has also taken a spiritual aspect of growing closer to Her/the divine feminine. This has happened in small ways prior, but have become more pointed recently. I don't pray to Her, but I have prayed about Her....and I do wonder if one day that edict will change. I have my own way of "mother-worship" per se, in my art. It's entailed exploring and fulfilling my calling in the temple. And seeking Her out more has given me a greater sense of grounding....or being rooted.  Knowing Mother more leaves to a greater rooting and greater sense of worshiping a divine Family.  I particularly have liked this verse recently in Proverbs 8 about wisdom (ie. potentially HM): "Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength"

 

So Though I do not know exactly what that will look like as a church body, I know what it's felt like in my own limited studies and searchings: A greater sense of divine power bestowed to me, greater knowledge of God, better rooting and establishment in Their work, a vision of Mother and women as integral in the Creation and humankind, a sense of necessity for women leaders and female voice in all aspects of church, etc.

 

With luv,

BD 

Edited November 3, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

I wonder if it ever dawned on anyone that one of the reasons why the full role of the priestesshood has not been yet been revealed is because it has something to do with divine authority flowing from Heavenly Mother, and because of its extreme sacredness the world isn't to hear about that yet.

What could be more sacred than divine authority flowing from the Father?