Women And Priesthood Essay

[Zakuska]

That's not what I said and I never claimed the things I am actually saying are doctrine. In fact I have clearly labeled it "speculation".

 

I accept that my view is based on speculation and I'm suggesting that the views of others are also based on speculation since we know so little about this.

 

But regarding the issue of equality of power and authority between HF and HM, it would seem that power and authority would have to be equal, otherwise, one god would always be subject to the other.

 

How does one God get "unsubjected" from another?

 

Revelation 2:17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the ...

 

On the white stone is written a new name that no one knows except the person ... the stone a new name written, which no man knows except him who receives it.

 

Revelation 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his ...

He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ... and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 

 

 The power of a Name.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Zakuska

[HappyJackWagon]

How does one God get "unsubjected" from another?

 

Revelation 2:17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the ...

 

On the white stone is written a new name that no one knows except the person ... the stone a new name written, which no man knows except him who receives it.

 

Revelation 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his ...

He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ... and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 

 

Fundamentalist groups like to quote Revelation and the "crowns" which represent their many wives as evidence of the righteousness and necessity of eternal polygamy. This kind of proof texting means nothing to me.

 

One does not become "unsubjected" from another. From the beginning they must be equal and I contend that it's not possible for one man (god) to be equal with with many women (goddesses). It's an inherently imbalanced relationship.

[Zakuska]

Is Christ equal to his father?

 

1 Corinthians 15:28 

And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Is Christ equal to his father?

 

1 Corinthians 15:28 

And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

God is still the Father and Jesus is still the son. So, no. They're not equal. The son glorifies the father. The father does not glorify the son. The father is the head. Jesus supports the head.

[JLHPROF]

But regarding the issue of equality of power and authority between HF and HM, it would seem that power and authority would have to be equal, otherwise, one god would always be subject to the other.

 

And why is that a problem?

One God has always been subject to another God.

[HappyJackWagon]

And why is that a problem?

One God has always been subject to another God.

As long as women know they will eternally be subjects to their husbands, holding part of his power (The priesthood of husband, not the priesthood of our God) and they desire that kind of Heaven, then there's no problem at all.

[JLHPROF]

As long as women know they will eternally be subjects to their husbands, holding part of his power (The priesthood of husband, not the priesthood of our God) and they desire that kind of Heaven, then there's no problem at all.

 

Fanny Murray told Joseph Smith: ‘Now, don't talk to me; when I get into the celestial kingdom, if I ever do get there, I shall request the privilege of being a ministering angel; that is the labor that I wish to perform. I don't want any companion in that world; and if the Lord will make me a ministering angel, it is all I want.’

Joseph said, ‘Sister, you talk very foolishly, you do not know what you will want.’

 

 

I think that is true for most of us - we have NO idea what we would want in the next life.  For my part I will take whatever God wants me to have here and trust that whatever I have there will be better than I can ever imagine.

[BlueDreams]

It's not really hidden. We already have enough truth and more than enough ordinances in the Church for all its faithful women, both living and dead, to obtain the eternal fullness of exaltation. I can honestly imagine the day will come when God will upbraid many for not being truly greatful for the amazing blessings they already had. Could it be this whole ruckus has its origins in the pride, ego and self-inflicted low self-esteem that wouldn't exist if they would only take full advantage of the blessings they already have?

I think there's a difference between necessary and sufficient. We have the necessary ordinances for salvation, true. But I do not think that we have what is sufficient for a zion society. That takes more than baptism and the ordinances of the temple. Also, gratitude does not mean complacency or assumptions that all is well and we need no more revelation on this topic.

 

This "whole ruckus" are likely to have people who have pride and ego in the brain. Just as those who proclaim we have enough may also suffer from those same human frailties. But most that I've talked to and discussed this with do not have that as their main fault. It's an earnest sense of discrepancy based off of some mixed cultural messages (I'm just talking within the church...there's plenty outside as well of course), some doctrinal holes, certain inexplicable practices, really weak speculative explanations, etc. And no, i doubt most have self-inflicted low self-esteem (whatever that means). I can only talk for myself on that one though. I have a very high self-esteem and genuinely love myself. I am grateful for my amazing blessings and feel that, especially considering some of my circumstances, I've lucked out and hit the life-lotto. I still whine from time to time (mostly to God), but who doesn't? And I take advantage of all that is afforded me now, to the best of my ability.

 

....Yet I still feel a discrepancy in the church surrounding women, how we teach about priesthood/HM/gender roles, and some of the practices and cultural assumptions that have built around it. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited November 4, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Zakuska]

I put this onthe other tread but it might do better here.

Another one of those words which gets muddled through translation so we can't tell if its a Title/Office or simply descriptive is found in this verse...

JAMES 5:14-15 KJV

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

The word there is...

Strong's Greek: 4245. πρεσβύτερος (presbuteros) -- elder

Which can also be applied to those of the Female Gender. Please note that Paul uses the same word to describe "elder women" in the church in 1 Tim. 5:2.

So how in the world can we justify not letting women participate in healing AND anointing blessings if this isn't even referring to the office in the priesthood of "Elder"?

More on that translation.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_2FYbmwnAiYC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=presbuteras&source=bl&ots=ylfW9jcF_u&sig=O8FI_0cNtu2_ffazrj1gG_47wws&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAmoVChMIptHHl7z1yAIVAdZjCh0jYAK1#v=onepage&q=presbuteras&f=false

[Bobbieaware]

I think there's a difference between necessary and sufficient. We have the necessary ordinances for salvation, true. But I do not think that we have what is sufficient for a zion society. That takes more than baptism and the ordinances of the temple. Also, gratitude does not mean complacency or assumptions that all is well and we need no more revelation on this topic.

This "whole ruckus" are likely to have people who have pride and ego in the brain. Just as those who proclaim we have enough may also suffer from those same human frailties. But most that I've talked to and discussed this with do not have that as their main fault. It's an earnest sense of discrepancy based off of some mixed cultural messages (I'm just talking within the church...there's plenty outside as well of course), some doctrinal holes, certain inexplicable practices, really weak speculative explanations, etc. And no, i doubt most have self-inflicted low self-esteem (whatever that means). I can only talk for myself on that one though. I have a very high self-esteem and genuinely love myself. I am grateful for my amazing blessings and feel that, especially considering some of my circumstances, I've lucked out and hit the life-lotto. I still whine from time to time (mostly to God), but who doesn't? And I take advantage of all that is afforded me now, to the best of my ability.

....Yet I still feel a discrepancy in the church surrounding women, how we teach about priesthood/HM/gender roles, and some of the practices and cultural assumptions that have built around it.

With luv,

BD

I respectfully submit that the self-inflicted low self-esteem of which I spoke occurs when people elect to not take full advantage of the divine blessings and opportunities already graciously made available to them. If the latter-day ark-steadiers and malcontents of today's Church would focus less on quixotic attempts to change the Church, and concentrate more on fulfilling the God-given responsibilities they already have -- and be content do so within their own spheres of influence -- there would be a lot less talk about feeling unfulfilled and incomplete unless and until women are ordained to the priesthood. If there could be more sincere focus on becoming quality visiting teachers, magnifying Church callings, performing frequent acts of Christlike service for those both within and without the Church, participating in diligent scripture study, attending the temple regularly, doing family history work that leads to temple ordinances for the dead, engaging in frequent fervent prayer, exercising great faith and looking unto Christ in every thought, and in all things becoming a positive and joyous representatives of the Savior in the world, then self-worth would soar as lives are changed for the better, holy light shines into darkness, and the Holy Ghost becomes a constant guide and companion.

Because the faithful women of the Church have been baptized, given the gift of the Holy Ghost, washed. anointed, and endowed with the power of the priesthood of God in holy temples, there is nothing standing in the way of their full exaltation in the celestial kingdom except for their own ingratitude and failure to realize just how blessed of the Lord they really are. The promise of becoming queens and priestesses in heaven is assured, but that blessing will only be obtained by those who possess broken hearts and contrite spirits, and a humble willingness to wait upon the Lord with patience until in his own good time he pours out the fullness of his blessings on the women of the Church. Whining and complaining like impatient children is unbecoming of the saints of God, especially when there is oh-so-much to be thankful for.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Comparing women who disagree with you to ark-steadying, malcontented, quixotic, discontented, insincere, ungrateful, whining, complaining, impatient, unbecoming children is respectful? 

[Maedros]

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”  (3 History of the Church 385 (2 July 1839, 7uMontrose, Iowa))

 

Excellent quote, this is the direction that Ordain Women is heading, ask Kate Kelly and as they persist more will follow.

[The Nehor]

Comparing women who disagree with you to ark-steadying, malcontented, quixotic, discontented, insincere, ungrateful, whining, complaining, impatient, unbecoming children is respectful? 

 

No but to be fair women (and men) who act like ark-steadying, malcontented, quixotic, discontented, insincere, ungrateful, whining, complaining, impatient, unbecoming children should not receive respect because that is just rewarding bad behavior and encourages more of the same.

[Maedros]

I think you're missing the point. It's more to the disdain to asserting that the priesthood isn't necessary for women and/or that holding the priesthood offices (aaronic/melchizedek) is really inert, an male obedience factor, or somehow a negative burden that no one would really want (except, you know, Abraham....crazy man). It's a really poor argument for why women shouldn't hold priesthood office.

 

And, I'm not BB, but I would assume that her question is that the purposes of a man being ordained to the Priesthood are often the reasons some women desire it as well. Desiring the priesthood for men (and in particular, the case of Abraham) was not all about obedience...it was the reception of blessings from heaven, greater knowledge, greater true power, and seeking after God. I do believe that many of the women want it, because they searched the scriptures, saw the blessings of the priesthood, and earnestly desire that. They feel a deficit. I do too....I just hold a number of underlying assertions that makes me feel a different path for addressing that deficit is needed.

 

The point is, people can have pure intentions for wanting priesthood office.  And the purposes for a man to need the Power of God are not different to why a woman would. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

I hear what you're saying and I respect you, I also respectfully disagree, here's why: I don't think a women who reads and understands the scriptures would desire to be ordained to the priesthood. It's like Satan wanting to be equal with God, the whole notion (in my view) is satanic deception. Here is a quote from apostate Kate Kelly:  “I respect and value the church and myself too much to be silent on this question. I truly believe that God wants us all to equally share the burdens and blessings of the priesthood. The ordination of women would put us all on equal spiritual footing with our brethren, and nothing less will suffice.” - See more at: http://janariess.religionnews.com/2013/09/25/lds-church-responds-ordain-women-movement/#sthash.LG2UNJGw.dpuf- So according to her belief, she knows better than the brethren who receive revelation for the Church, according to her "God wants us" to ordain women. To quote Capt Jack Sparrow: "Utterly deceptive twaddle-speak, says I." The priesthood is patriarchal (of, relating to, or characteristic of a system of society or government controlled by men) its proper name is the holy Order of the Son of God and it has been held my men (only) since the days of Adam. My point is that women should not desire to be ordained to the priesthood and if women so desire and make such desires public then it is a form of dissension which I believe is the result of deception and by-and-by they will travel down the road (paved with pure intentions) to apostasy and excommunication.   

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

... and now women who desire Priesthood are 'respectfully' compared to Satan. Lovely. I suppose a thread like this just wouldn't be complete without such a classy little touch. 

[Maedros]

It would be easier if you just posted the verses that you are referring to.

 

I think the below quote from a talk given by Elder Spencer W Kimball called The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood will suffice:

 

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (male), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

“Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” (Heb. 1:1–4.)

 

“I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.” (Abr. 1:3–4.)

Now if I haven’t wearied you with this reading, I should like to read another two or three lines and then close.

“As it was with Noah so shall it be with thee; but through thy ministry my name shall be known in the earth forever.” (Abr. 1:16, 19.) And he says, “I will … put upon thee my name.” (Abr. 1:18.) My name. The name of Jesus Christ. The priesthood is called the “Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.” (D&C 107:3.) And then Melchizedek’s name was given to the priesthood so we wouldn’t repeat too often the name of the Son of God. 

“But the records of the fathers, even the patriarchs, concerning the right of Priesthood, the Lord my God preserved in mine own hands; therefore a knowledge of the beginning of the creation, and also of the planets, and of the stars, as they were made known unto the fathers, have I kept even unto this day, and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record, for the benefit of my posterity that shall come after me.” (Abr. 1:28, 31.)

 

So, from these few verses I deduce that the priesthood has always been held by men, from the Son of God to Adam, all the way down to this day when it is still held only by men. I think that women who compete for this power stand in opposition to this order and its head (being Christ) and this new creed (Ordain Women) is by this false and deceptive desire propagating anti-Christ ideologies and furthering the work of the true master (of this false doctrine): Satan. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Maedros

[juliann]

 . My point is that women should not desire to be ordained to the priesthood and if women so desire and make such desires public then it is a form of dissension which I believe is the result of deception and by-and-by they will travel down the road (paved with pure intentions) to apostasy and excommunication. 

 

Oh, like that would ever happen. How would you be able to round up enough wives for your eternal reward without every last one of us?

[Maedros]

Oh, like that would ever happen. How would you be able to round up enough wives for your eternal reward without every last one of us?

 

Ask Kate Kelly, she is the perfect example of the end result of the false creed: Ordain Women. 

 

“I respect and value the church and myself too much to be silent on this question. I truly believe that God wants us all to equally share the burdens and blessings of the priesthood. The ordination of women would put us all on equal spiritual footing with our brethren, and nothing less will suffice.” - See more at: http://janariess.religionnews.com/2013/09/25/lds-church-responds-ordain-women-movement/#sthash.LG2UNJGw.dpuf

 

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That [wo]man who rises up to condemn others [in this case the brethren], finding fault with the Church [for not ordaining women], saying that they are out of the way, while he [herself] is righteous (since she believes God wants us all to equally share the burdens and blessings of the priesthood), then know assuredly, that that [wo]man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”  (3 History of the Church 385 (2 July 1839, 7uMontrose, Iowa))

[Maedros]

... and now women who desire Priesthood are 'respectfully' compared to Satan. Lovely. I suppose a thread like this just wouldn't be complete without such a classy little touch. 

 

Not 'compared to' but 'deceived by' Satan. 

 

The next time you put LDS women and Satan in the same sentence you will be thread banned. We have zero tolerance.

[Bobbieaware]

Comparing women who disagree with you to ark-steadying, malcontented, quixotic, discontented, insincere, ungrateful, whining, complaining, impatient, unbecoming children is respectful?

I see you missed the main message of my post. Perhaps you should go back and read it again.

At any rate, the women of the Church should already know they are promised if they remain faithful they will one day become queens (not kings) and priestesses (not priests) in heaven. The fact that one day faithful women will become queens and priestesses is a fait accompli, therefore siphoning off spiritual energies and emotional strength into a futile cause of wanting to be treated as if they are men is unseemly and puts on display, in varying degrees, some or all of the behaviors described in my post.

it's just a matter of time before the Lord more fully reveals what the roles of being made queens and priestesses are all about. So why not wait patiently until the Lord decides in his own wisdom that the time has come to reveal more? What if, for instance, the fuller revelation of queens and priestesses is in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and will not be revealed until the dawn of the millennium? Therefore, is it not more wise to think and act as if the Church is actually true and that it's led by true living prophets? Why not trust in the Lord that the Promised revelations on these things will come in his own due time? But till then, should we not be anxiously, joyously end confidently engaged in building the kingdom of God on earth through the means already put at our disposal?

One last point: Is it possible one of the reasons why the Lord has not yet revealed more on the roles of queens and priestesses is because when that revelation does come it will be made starkly plain that the roles of men a women in the kingdom of God are not interchangeable -- that these roles are discrete and not one and the same -- and that if the Lord allowed such feminism busting information to be revealed at this time that it would cause even more discontent and rebellion in the Church? In this same regard, does it ever dawn on progressive members of the Church that much of modern feminist doctrine could be a false construct that stands in opposition to will of God? Or are we to automatically presume the non-member secular feminists are always more enlightened than the leaders of the Church?

Edited November 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Tacenda]

Whenever the subject of female ordination to the priesthood comes up, I wonder why those who push for this change don"t stick with what's already been revealed on the subject. And what has been revealed on this subject? It's that one day women will be ordained to be PRIESTESSES into their husbands, whatever that means. So if the ordain women movement had been smart they should have pressed the Church leaders for a fuller revelation of what it means to be a priestess and not make demands that women be ordained to the all-male priesthood.

The big mistake these OW folks have made is that their push for female ordination to the priesthood is affirmed upon the modern feminist dogma that there should be no differences of substance between men and women, and that the roles of men and women should be fully interchangeable in all things in a brave new world. But the Family Proclamation makes it clear that by divine design there will always be important differences between the roles of men and women that will exist throughout eternity.

Now some feminists may say the titles priest and priestess are terms of distinction without a difference, but I don't think it's likely that will turn out to be true. I personally believe when the nature of the female priestesshood is fully revealed it's very likely it will be understood to be a parallel and complimentary organization of divine authority to the priesthood of men and not one and the same thing. So will the OW people be wise and change course and begin to push for a fuller revelation of the roles of priestesses within the divine priestesshood? I doubt it.

Bobbieaware, I agree and think you're spot on. When is the church and men going to see this revelation by you? I think it's time they ask God about the church JS started, I'm fairly confident we'd have women as Priestesses had BY not veered off the path of prophecy. Never entered my mind on what you've just played out, or it's always been on my mind and you've brought it out, light bulb turned fully on here! I'm thinking of some art I've seen in the church right now of a woman, possibly a Priestess. Maybe this will do until then.

http://www.canstockphoto.com/beautiful-painting-of-a-young-woman-in-25182552.html

And this article is a good read about the feminine divine and our Heavenly Mother. I especially thought the poem below to be hauntingly beautiful.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2014/05/19/finding-the-pagan-goddess-in-a-mormon-temple/

 

A Poem by Carol Lynn Pearson

 

A Motherless House

I live in a Motherless house

A broken home.

How it happened I cannot learn.

When I had words enough to ask “Where is my Mother?”

No one seemed to know

And no one thought it strange

That no one else knew either.

I live in a Motherless house.

They are good to me here

But I find that no kindly Patriarchal care eases the pain…

 

ETA:  Bobbieaware what if that's what OW want, and we've misunderstood, it may be that that's what they're talking about, Priestesshood.  My apologies to any OW here. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

I think the below quote from a talk given by Elder Spencer W Kimball called The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood will suffice:

 

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (male), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

“Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” (Heb. 1:1–4.)

 

“I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.” (Abr. 1:3–4.)

Now if I haven’t wearied you with this reading, I should like to read another two or three lines and then close.

“As it was with Noah so shall it be with thee; but through thy ministry my name shall be known in the earth forever.” (Abr. 1:16, 19.) And he says, “I will … put upon thee my name.” (Abr. 1:18.) My name. The name of Jesus Christ. The priesthood is called the “Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.” (D&C 107:3.) And then Melchizedek’s name was given to the priesthood so we wouldn’t repeat too often the name of the Son of God. 

“But the records of the fathers, even the patriarchs, concerning the right of Priesthood, the Lord my God preserved in mine own hands; therefore a knowledge of the beginning of the creation, and also of the planets, and of the stars, as they were made known unto the fathers, have I kept even unto this day, and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record, for the benefit of my posterity that shall come after me.” (Abr. 1:28, 31.)

 

So, from these few verses I deduce that the priesthood has always been held by men, from the Son of God to Adam, all the way down to this day when it is still held only by men. I think that women who compete for this power stand in opposition to this order and its head (being Christ) and this new creed (Ordain Women) is by this false and deceptive desire propagating anti-Christ ideologies and furthering the work of the true master (of this false doctrine): Satan. 

 

I appreciate you providing the references.  And in the interest of full disclosure, i don't agree with the idea that God has always condoned ordaining women and it's just been culture and men who have kept women from receiving that blessing. I don't support ordaining women right now and don't foresee it happening in the future but if it suddenly did i would be fine with that.

 

Having said all of that, though I can understand why you interpret these verses the way that you do, I don't believe that your interpretation is the only valid one.  I mentioned this earlier, but the biggest hurdle that people have in using scriptures to support the idea that women are not to be ordained is that scripture very very rarely speaks about women at all, even when something does very much apply to us.  

 

If you look up all the scriptures about serving proselyting missions, for example, you'll see that they are all about and addressed to men.  However, women still serve missions.

 

Women are forced to read themselves into scripture all the time, and in fact in the church is fully in support of that, and even teaches women that's what we must do.  With that kind of scriptural history and practice behind us, you can't really fault people when they feel it's acceptable to read women into those verses of scripture which talk about receiving the priesthood.

[Bobbieaware]

Bobbieaware, I agree and think you're spot on. When is the church and men going to see this revelation by you? I think it's time they ask God about the church JS started, I'm fairly confident we'd have women as Priestesses had BY not veered off the path of prophecy. Never entered my mind on what you've just played out, or it's always been on my mind and you've brought it out, light bulb turned fully on here! I'm thinking of some art I've seen in the church right now of a woman, possibly a Priestess. Maybe this will do until then. http://www.canstockphoto.com/beautiful-painting-of-a-young-woman-in-25182552.html

And this article is a good read about the feminine divine and our Heavenly Mother. I especially thought the poem below to be hauntingly beautiful. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2014/05/19/finding-the-pagan-goddess-in-a-mormon-temple/

I live in a Motherless house

A broken home.

How it happened I cannot learn.

When I had words enough to ask “Where is my Mother?”

No one seemed to know

And no one thought it strange

That no one else knew either.

I live in a Motherless house.

They are good to me here

But I find that no kindly Patriarchal care eases the pain…

See my previous post on this thread, as It provides a possible answer as to why a fuller revelation of the preistesshood of women has not yet been given. In short, it could be that when that fuller revelation does come it will be revealed it's the Lord's will that the women of the Church will NEVER hold the same priesthood authority as men because of differing eternal roles for each sex. Therefore. it could be that the leaders of the Church already do know the answer to the question but they're withholding that answer because in today's feminist secular environment the rebelation could cause even more discontent for the progressives element within the Church and even more mockery blasting us from without.

It could actually turn out to be true when Paul said it's God's design that the men of the Church should be in subjection to the righteous Savior and the women of the Church shoulf be in the subjection to their righteous and faithful husbands -- and what self-respecting feminist could stand for that? This could be the reason why the leaders are keeping their silence.

In any case, it could be that this issue all boils down to a test to see who will bow in humble subjection to the Lord's will, even though for now there may not be satisfactory answers as to why the Lord ordered his kingdom in such a way. It could be that those women who are able humble themselves in the depths of humility and gladly obey the Lord's will be exalted as Queens of Heaven; while those who who are unable to humble themselves to the Lord's will will miss out on full exaltation as equals with their husband. Anyway, remember that I'm speculating and making educated guesses based on the scriptures,

Edited November 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Zakuska]

It should be remembered that there was a time when Israel worshiped a female deity / consort to YHWH.

 

Hebrew Bible references[edit]

Worship of a "Queen of Heaven" (Hebrew מלכת השמים, Malkath haShamayim) is recorded in the Book of Jeremiah, in the context of the Prophet condemning such religious worship as blasphemy and a violation of the teachings of the God of Israel.

In Jeremiah 7:18:

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.[15]

In Jeremiah 44:15-18:

Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."[16]

It should be remembered in this context that there was a temple of Yahweh in Egypt at that time that was central to the Jewish community at Elephantine in which Yahweh was worshipped in conjunction with the goddess Anath (also named in the temple papyri as Anath-Bethel and Anath-Iahu).[17]

The goddesses Asherah, Anath and Astarte first appear as distinct and separate deities in the tablets discovered in the ruins of the library of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra, Syria). Some biblical scholars[who?] tend to regard these goddesses as one, especially under the title "Queen of heaven".

John Day states that "there is nothing in first-millennium BC texts that singles out Asherah as 'Queen of Heaven' or associates her particularly with the heavens at all."[18] F. F. Bruce, an evangelical (Biblical) scholar differentiates between Astarte and Asherah as two distinct feminine deities.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_heaven_(antiquity)

Goddess Anat in Antiquety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anat

Edited November 4, 2015 by Zakuska

[Tacenda]

It should be remembered that there was a time when Israel worshiped a female deity / consort to YHWH.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_heaven_(antiquity)

Wow, thanks for sharing!  I really never understood anything to do with a Queen of Heaven, it was never in my scope of reality.  What an awesome idea and would hope that our church curriculum would include it somewhere in the Sunday School manuals. 

 

I am woman hear me roar...

I Am Woman

By Helen Reddy

 

I am woman, hear me roar

In numbers too big to ignore

And I know too much to go back an' pretend

'Cause I've heard it all before

And I've been down there on the floor

No one's ever gonna keep me down again

[Chorus:]

Oh yes I am wise

But it's wisdom born of pain

Yes, I've paid the price

But look how much I gained

If I have to, I can do anything

I am strong (strong)

I am invincible (invincible)

I am woman

You can bend but never break me

'Cause it only serves to make me

More determined to achieve my final goal

And I come back even stronger

Not a novice any longer

'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

[Chorus]

I am woman watch me grow

See me standing toe to toe

As I spread my lovin' arms across the land

But I'm still an embryo

With a long long way to go

Until I make my brother understand

Oh yes I am wise

But it's wisdom born of pain

Yes, I've paid the price

But look how much I gained

If I have to I can face anything

I am strong (strong)

I am invincible (invincible)

I am woman

Oh, I am woman

I am invincible

I am strong

I am woman

I am invincible

I am strong

I am woman

 

Songwriters: BURTON, RAY / REDDY, HELEN