Women And Priesthood Essay

[Calm]

Edited to add: So in the eternal world, it might be said that the woman is a priestess unto her husband, and the husband is a priest unto his wife

Is that how it is described in the temple? If not, isn't that speculation?

[Bobbieaware]

I mean this in the best way possible, but whenever the idea that we don't have knowledge about the role of women and their power in the eternities is due to "extreme sacredness" that the world isn't ready for I think it sounds more like an "extreme" cop-out. We have several truths and points that the world would (and does) reject and have from the beginning. This hasn't stopped the Lord from giving it to us. Besides, the research being done and the scriptures themselves points to the idea that Mother (and ergo feasibly priestesshood) had place in the ancient worship/church. We lost it due to apostasy. If this is the restoration of all things, IMHO, it cannot be complete until we've fully restored women, their eternal roles, and Mother to their place. I feel that we have whispers of that, both in the temple and with the RS organization. But we do not have the fullness of it. And though others have brought this up (I feel it has come up in just about every discussion of HM I've ever experienced), it still ring hollow.

 

 

With luv,

BD

A question: Do you believe, based on how the Church operates at this time, that the faithful women of the Church are going to be held back in any way from receiving the fullness of all the eternal blessings God has waiting for them if they don"t receive priesthood ordination while in mortality? If so, how will the situation be rectified for the millions of women who have not been ordained in mortality?

[Steve-o]

You fell into my trap . In the eternal world, the husband is a God AND the wife IS a perfevted Goddess; and because, as the Apostle Paul said, ""the man is not without the woman, and the woman is not without the man in the Lord," both are eternally one -- as the Father and the Son are one -- and both are mutually dependent upon each other's divinity in order to continue to rule and reign as a God and and a Goddesses in heaven. Just as there can be no Heavely Father without a divine Son, there can be no Heavely Father unless he is one with and eternally sealed to his divine Wife.

Edited to add: So in the eternal world, it might be said that the woman is a priestess unto her husband, and the husband is a priest unto his wife

I don't think I fell into any trap but I still see a difference between me holding the priesthood of God and my wife holding the priesthood of Steve-o.

 

I don't think this last part is correct. If I'm remembering the Temple Language correctly it says nothing about a husband being a priest unto his wife. He is a priest unto God. She is a priestess unto god (lower g). The essay on becoming like God makes the distinction between (G)od and becoming a (g)od so it would seem there is some difference there.

[Jeanne]

What could be more sacred than divine authority flowing from the Father?

Divine authority from both the Father and the Mother.

[Bobbieaware]

What could be more sacred than divine authority flowing from the Father?

I would say both Heavenly Father's authority and Heavenly Mother's divine authority are equally sacred. Your question seems to stem from the sexist notion that Heavenly Father is somehow superior to Heavenly Mother and that her divine authority as a queen and priestess in heaven is in some way less valuable, important and sacred than Heavenly Father's kingship and priesthood. In my opinion, Heavenly Mother is every bit as perfect in every way as is her Husband, they just have different but perfectly complimentary roles in a reality based on opposition in all things.

[HappyJackWagon]

I would say both Heavenly Father's authority and Heavenly Mother's divine authority are equally sacred. Your question seems to stem from the sexist notion that Heavenly Father is somehow superior to Heavenly Mother and that her divine authority as a queen and priestess in heaven is in some way less valuable, important and sacred than Heavenly Father's kingship and priesthood. In my opinion, Heavenly Mother is every bit as perfect in every way as is her Husband, they just have different but perfectly complimentary roles in a reality based on opposition in all things.

That is a nice notion but it's speculaton.

 

It's hard for HF & HM's to be equal. I'm not claiming this is the way it works because we do not know, but think of it mathematically.

 

HF has 50% of the power and authority.

HM #1 has 5% Power and authority

HM#2 has 5%

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10 all have 5% authority individually compared to HF's 50%.

 

In other words where there are multiple wives their authority is divided amongst and therefore not equal to the husband. And they function only under the authority of the husband/God whereas the husband functions under the authority of our God.

[Bobbieaware]

That is a nice notion but it's speculaton.

 

It's hard for HF & HM's to be equal. I'm not claiming this is the way it works because we do not know, but think of it mathematically.

 

HF has 50% of the power and authority.

HM #1 has 5% Power and authority

HM#2 has 5%

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10 all have 5% authority individually compared to HF's 50%.

 

In other words where there are multiple wives their authority is divided amongst and therefore not equal to the husband. And they function only under the authority of the husband/God whereas the husband functions under the authority of our God.

That is your supposition based upon how things might work on earth, but God said "my ways are not your ways." Anyway, each heavenly mother -- if, as we're taught, she's a sovereign QUEEN and not a just princess -- most likely stands at the head (with her husband) of a separate (discrete) reality and creation, and her husband could not be the God of that specific reality and creation without being one with that particular sovereign Queen; and for any intelligence existing within the specific reality and creation, she absolutely reigns supreme.

[Zakuska]

Divine authority from both the Father and the Mother.

Rep points for that.

 

That is a nice notion but it's speculaton.

 

It's hard for HF & HM's to be equal. I'm not claiming this is the way it works because we do not know, but think of it mathematically.

 

HF has 50% of the power and authority.

HM #1 has 5% Power and authority

HM#2 has 5%

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10 all have 5% authority individually compared to HF's 50%.

 

In other words where there are multiple wives their authority is divided amongst and therefore not equal to the husband. And they function only under the authority of the husband/God whereas the husband functions under the authority of our God.

However this isn't how the math really works... because to talk to the father is to talk to the mothers since they are one flesh. So each member of the divine parent group hold 100% Authority all being = one to another. Edited November 3, 2015 by Zakuska

[KevinG]

Somehow I really doubt godly power is a zero sum game.

[Bobbieaware]

Is that how it is described in the temple? If not, isn't that speculation?

It's speculation based on lots of common sense. No man can rule in eternity as a God unless there is a perfect Queen (denotes rulership) and Priestess (denotes the fullness of divine female authority) reigning at his side, as a co-equal, with whom he is of one ihesrt and mind. He cannot rule as God without her Queenship and Priestesshood, and she cannot rule as a Goddess without his Kingship and Priestesshood. The are totally dependent upon one another. As free agents, they exist in perfect unity. Therefore Heavely Father's will for us is, without question, also Heavenly Mother's will for us. There are no manipulative, dominating and abusive husbands in the celestial kingdom. Edited November 3, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

Really? Search the scriptures.

 

It would be easier if you just posted the verses that you are referring to.

[Bobbieaware]

Most of the struggles folks experience on this subject, at least in part, grow out of not being able to appreciate the perfect oneness and harmony of divine beings. Instead of looking at the marital chaos that all-too-often exists on earth, elevate your eyes to heaven where those who have overcome the world and the flesh dwell in perfect love and devotion.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[BlueDreams]

A question: Do you believe, based on how the Church operates at this time, that the faithful women of the Church are going to be held back in any way from receiving the fullness of all the eternal blessings God has waiting for them if they don"t receive priesthood ordination while in mortality? If so, how will the situation be rectified for the millions of women who have not been ordained in mortality?

 

How do you mean by priesthood ordination in mortality? If you mean priesthood office that is the same as men's, I've never stated that I believed that women will receive such. I personally don't believe so (but am open to correction if one day that is the case). So the questions feel like they place assumptions for me that I've never actually held.

 

Generally speaking, we worship a God who promises to one day wipe away all tears. Much of our muddling may not be rectified for all generations in the exact moment when greater knowledge and practice are given. I figure the situation will be rectified by Their hands and Their way: With perfect mercy and justice. And that the commencement of that will entail what it always has: Doctrinal clarity/gradual revelation post the major one and temple work to begin tying loose ends.

 

With luv,

BD 

[HappyJackWagon]

Think of this possibility. HF & HM are equal amongst power of their offspring of 10 children. Each HM is limited to the authority and power over her offspring (Even saying "offspring" is a huge assumption). But HF isn't limited to authority over just those 10 because he has 9 other wives each with 10 children. Each wife has power and authority over her offspring of 10 while HF has power and authority over his offspring of 100. Power and authority over 100 is more than the power and authority over 10.

This is TOTAL speculation and I doubt things really work this way but the point is we really have NO CLUE how it works. If we were to assume HF and HM#1 have equal authority over all 100 of HF's children that actually diminishes God's authority and the authority of the other 9 HM's. It is all speculation. We don't know how it works and this essay does nothing to explain how it works.

[JLHPROF]

That is a nice notion but it's speculaton.

 

It's hard for HF & HM's to be equal. I'm not claiming this is the way it works because we do not know, but think of it mathematically.

 

HF has 50% of the power and authority.

HM #1 has 5% Power and authority

HM#2 has 5%

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10 all have 5% authority individually compared to HF's 50%.

 

In other words where there are multiple wives their authority is divided amongst and therefore not equal to the husband. And they function only under the authority of the husband/God whereas the husband functions under the authority of our God.

 

That's really what it comes down to in the end isn't it?  Who gets to be in charge?

Unless I'm exactly equal with my priesthood head I don't get to be happy.

 

Well, that's incorrect doctrine.  There will always be someone that presides over us and always be someone who we preside over.  Any notion of perfect equality between two beings is false.  (And yes, I even include Christ and the Father in that).

Abraham tells us of any two intelligences one is always greater - not intelligences as in knowledge, but intelligences as in authority in my opinion.

Even when we become joint-heirs with Christ and receive everything he receives, he will still preside over us to all eternity.  And even when the Father gives all he has to Christ, the Father will still preside.

 

But we insist on making everyone equal in power and authority so nobody has their feelings hurt.  It's the "A for effort, blue ribbon for participating" mentality.

So much for the greatest of all being the servant of all.

Edited November 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[KevinG]

That's really what it comes down to in the end isn't it?  Who gets to be in charge?

Unless I'm exactly equal with my priesthood head I don't get to be happy.

 

Well, that's incorrect doctrine.  There will always be someone that presides over us and always be someone who we preside over.  Any notion of perfect equality between two beings is false.  (And yes, I even include Christ and the Father in that).

Abraham tells us of any two intelligences one is always greater - not intelligences as in knowledge, but intelligences as in authority in my opinion.

 

But we insist on making everyone equal in power and authority so nobody has their feelings hurt.  It's the "A for effort, blue ribbon for participating" scenario.

So much for the greatest of all being the servant of all.

 

This takes on more poignancy when we consider the gospel is a mortal training ground for eventual eternal exaltation.   

 

Who gets to serve the sacrament, perform a laying on of hands, and administer the temporal mechanics of the church in mortality, will pale in comparison to being a joint heir with Christ, a role all faithful are promised regardless of gender.

[BlueDreams]

Think of this possibility. HF & HM are equal amongst power of their offspring of 10 children. Each HM is limited to the authority and power over her offspring (Even saying "offspring" is a huge assumption). But HF isn't limited to authority over just those 10 because he has 9 other wives each with 10 children. Each wife has power and authority over her offspring of 10 while HF has power and authority over his offspring of 100. Power and authority over 100 is more than the power and authority over 10. This is TOTAL speculation and I doubt things really work this way but the point is we really have NO CLUE how it works. If we were to assume HF and HM#1 have equal authority over all 100 of HF's children that actually diminishes God's authority and the authority of the other 9 HM's. It is all speculation. We don't know how it works and this essay does nothing to explain how it works.

 

I personally am not a fan of polygamous marriages in heaven (unless we consider both male-multiple female and female-multiple male marriage.....but even then, I'm not a huge fan of it). I feel we jump to polygyny way too fast, especially considering they are and always have been a minority of marriages.  

 

That stated, making a whole lot of assumptions....you could still have a power structure that didn't entail one with several partners being considered less powerful. You can take a multiplier model to it. Where each partner just multiplies the power of each other partner. You could also point out that the power of God is considered infinite. So 5% of infinity....is still infinity. 50% of infinity, is infinity. 2x's infinity is infinity. It's not a finite power. There's no reduction or increase of power based on the number of partners participating in said power. So there...math wise, it fails. 

 

And though we don't know how it all works or entirely what it looks like, we can make a few assertions to start off with: All are the same before God. God entails perfect mercy and Justice. Eternity is Their environment and Endless is literally Their name. If there were multiple Mothers, their power and influence could not be limited based on the nature of being Eternal and Endless. (Add on: likewise, if there were multiple Fathers it also would not somehow limit power or influence because infinity is still the same)

 

With luv,

BD

Edited November 3, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

Divine authority from both the Father and the Mother.

If they are truly one, why would there be any difference?

[Calm]

I would say both Heavenly Father's authority and Heavenly Mother's divine authority are equally sacred. Your question seems to stem from the sexist notion that Heavenly Father is somehow superior to Heavenly Mother and that her divine authority as a queen and priestess in heaven is in some way less valuable, important and sacred than Heavenly Father's kingship and priesthood. In my opinion, Heavenly Mother is every bit as perfect in every way as is her Husband, they just have different but perfectly complimentary roles in a reality based on opposition in all things.

I am not the one suggesting that we have the Father's authority now, but have to wait for the Mother's because of its extreme sacredness.

If they are equally sacred, then why are we allowed access to the Father's now?

[Bobbieaware]

If they are truly one, why would there be any difference?

Because there are complimentary roles. The whole point is that in the highest degree of glory men need women and women need men because neither the man nor the woman can fulfill the divinely appointed role of their opposite sex spouse.

[BlueDreams]

Because there are complimentary roles. The whole point is that in the highest degree of glory men need women and women need men because neither the man nor the woman can fulfill the divinely appointed role of their opposite sex spouse.

 

So how does it help God's children to become like Them if one of those complimentary roles is partially hidden or and it's power stunted in this life?

[Bobbieaware]

I am not the one suggesting that we have the Father's authority now, but have to wait for the Mother's because of its extreme sacredness.

If they are equally sacred, then why are we allowed access to the Father's now?

I was speculating. But in answer to your question, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon (for example) contains a tremendous amount of doctrine, history and information we are not now permitted to know. Why not? After all, what could be any more sacred than a knowledge of Heavenly Father? So for his own good reasons Heavenly Father may not want to have the full role of Queens and Priestesses revealed at this time because we're just not ready for it yet. And it could be that one of the reasons why we may not be ready for it is that much of the the Church is now in a state of semi-rebellion, where a significant number of presumptuous and petulant "children" are acting as if the Lord doesn't know how to run his own kingdom.

[Bobbieaware]

So how does it help God's children to become like Them if one of those complimentary roles is partially hidden or and it's power stunted in this life?

It's not really hidden. We already have enough truth and more than enough ordinances in the Church for all its faithful women, both living and dead, to obtain the eternal fullness of exaltation. I can honestly imagine the day will come when God will upbraid many for not being truly greatful for the amazing blessings they already had. Could it be this whole ruckus has its origins in the pride, ego and self-inflicted low self-esteem that wouldn't exist if they would only take full advantage of the blessings they already have?

[Jeanne]

Another reason why I couldn't wrap myself  around the eternal plan..power is not a desire of mine..nor is the responsibility of that power.  I don't want to have spirit children go to an earth..and try to come   back to me under such and such conditions.  My desire would be..just come home..I will love you anyway.

[HappyJackWagon]

That's really what it comes down to in the end isn't it?  Who gets to be in charge?

Unless I'm exactly equal with my priesthood head I don't get to be happy.

 

Well, that's incorrect doctrine.  There will always be someone that presides over us and always be someone who we preside over.  Any notion of perfect equality between two beings is false.  (And yes, I even include Christ and the Father in that).

Abraham tells us of any two intelligences one is always greater - not intelligences as in knowledge, but intelligences as in authority in my opinion.

Even when we become joint-heirs with Christ and receive everything he receives, he will still preside over us to all eternity.  And even when the Father gives all he has to Christ, the Father will still preside.

 

But we insist on making everyone equal in power and authority so nobody has their feelings hurt.  It's the "A for effort, blue ribbon for participating" mentality.

So much for the greatest of all being the servant of all.

That's not what I said and I never claimed the things I am actually saying are doctrine. In fact I have clearly labeled it "speculation".

 

I accept that my view is based on speculation and I'm suggesting that the views of others are also based on speculation since we know so little about this.

 

But regarding the issue of equality of power and authority between HF and HM, it would seem that power and authority would have to be equal, otherwise, one god would always be subject to the other.