Nephi's Description Of Mary

[theplains]

I had a few questions about 1 Nephi 11:13,15.

 

What does he mean that Mary is exceedingly fair and white?  Did Nephi believe Mary was chosen

for her outward beauty instead of her inner qualities?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

[ksfisher]

I don't think that Nephi describing Mary in that manner meant that being fair and white was the reason that she was chosen, just that Nephi considered her to be that way.

That being said, his description could be taken to mean an inward beauty and purity rather than a description of her outward appearance.

[JAHS]

I would agree with this, but i wonder if when seeing things in a vision like that, everyone appears white in color; like the Angel Moroni did to Joseph Smith?

(JSH 1: 31-32) 

[The Nehor]

It is possible that Nephi was seeing her in her premortal form as opposed to what she looked like as a mortal. Experiences with premortal and postmortal beings often lead the viewer to comment on their beauty or glory. Either that or she was an albino but albino coloring is rarely referred to as fair.

Edited September 19, 2015 by The Nehor

[telnetd]

That being said, his description could be taken to mean an inward beauty and purity rather than a description of her outward appearance.

 

That's a stretch. She is also described as being most beautiful of all the virgins

on the earth. He is focusing on outward appearance. This same color theme

is applied to the appearance of the Lamanites in contrast to the Nephites.

 

Gail

[JLHPROF]

 

I had a few questions about 1 Nephi 11:13,15.

 

What does he mean that Mary is exceedingly fair and white?  Did Nephi believe Mary was chosen

for her outward beauty instead of her inner qualities?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

Don't forget verse 19 -  And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

 

Maybe Nephi saw her in the flesh first, or maybe his description was of her in her transfigured state.

[thesometimesaint]

White in the context of the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with skin color. Nephi would have looked like the Palestinians of today.

[Ahab]

exceedingly fair = very pretty, beautiful (physically)

white = pure, virtuous, righteous

virgin = young woman

[JLHPROF]

virgin = young woman

 

Well most historians believe she was betrothed at 12-13 and had Christ around age 14.

 

So young would be an understatement by today's standards.

[Storm Rider]

 

I had a few questions about 1 Nephi 11:13,15.

 

What does he mean that Mary is exceedingly fair and white?  Did Nephi believe Mary was chosen

for her outward beauty instead of her inner qualities?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

In this context I have always understood white not to be a color, but a reference to purity - fair and pure, which describes both here outward and inner qualities.  Joseph went back and corrected many similar situations - white to pure, but that translation is owned by the CofC/RLDS group.  The Church retained the 1840/1 edition printed in Europe, which did not have the last corrections Joseph completed.

 

I don't know if this was one of corrections he made, but I am aware that many "white" to "pure" corrections were made by Joseph prior to the end of his life. 

[Storm Rider]

That's a stretch. She is also described as being most beautiful of all the virgins

on the earth. He is focusing on outward appearance. This same color theme

is applied to the appearance of the Lamanites in contrast to the Nephites.

 

Gail

 

Yeah, not so much.  You are projecting.

[Deborah]

Why is it so unusual that the Lord would choose the maiden that was purest and loveliest. We all appreciate beauty. The fact is he can see inside the heart and recognizes the beauty inside. One day in our perfected state we will all be beautiful both inside and out. Mary happened to reach that pinnacle in this life.

[stephenpurdy]

 

I had a few questions about 1 Nephi 11:13,15.

 

What does he mean that Mary is exceedingly fair and white?  Did Nephi believe Mary was chosen

for her outward beauty instead of her inner qualities?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

 

Let me give you a hint: 

 

Lets start with Isaiah chapter 1:

 

18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."

 

Psalm 51:7

Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

 

What does "white" mean from the scriptural context?

 

Note:  Joseph Smith himself indicated that "white" could be translated as "pure".  

 

-Stephen

[DJBrown]

 

I had a few questions about 1 Nephi 11:13,15.

 

What does he mean that Mary is exceedingly fair and white?  Did Nephi believe Mary was chosen

for her outward beauty instead of her inner qualities?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

Maybe this is a little distracting, but it always bothers me to hear members of the church say that Christ was probably somewhat unattractive in His mortal life.  They usually quote Isaiah's famous statements about His appearance.  But considering who Christ's parents were- God the Father and Mary (according to Nephi- most fair above all other virgins), I think Christ was probably a very beautiful person, but clothed in modest and humble clothing and "accessories."  

 

I think Mary was very beautiful, physically.

[Bernard Gui]

 

I had a few questions about 1 Nephi 11:13,15.

 

What does he mean that Mary is exceedingly fair and white?  Did Nephi believe Mary was chosen

for her outward beauty instead of her inner qualities?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

It means she was pure and clean, not washed with soap but with the blood of Christ.

[theplains]

Don't forget verse 19 -  And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

 

Maybe Nephi saw her in the flesh first, or maybe his description was of her in her transfigured state.

 

Where did Nephi ever use the term 'transfigured' to describe Mary?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[theplains]

It means she was pure and clean, not washed with soap but with the blood of Christ.

 

She was made pure by the atonement, but the context in Nephi's passage is the

time before the birth of Christ (when she is a virgin).  She was a sinner and needed

a saviour, as mentioned in Luke 1:47.  

 

Do you believe as the Catholics do that she was born without original sin and

remained sinless her whole life?

 

Thanks,

Jim 

[stephenpurdy]

She was made pure by the atonement, but the context in Nephi's passage is the

time before the birth of Christ (when she is a virgin).  She was a sinner and needed

a saviour, as mentioned in Luke 1:47.  

 

Do you believe as the Catholics do that she was born without original sin and

remained sinless her whole life?

 

Thanks,

Jim 

 

Jim, you are probably quite aware that LDS do not believe in the Catholic dogma of the "immaculate conception". 

 

Now I have some questions for you.

 

Do you believe that every single person who lived prior to the mortal life and atonement of Jesus Christ died in their sins?

 

Or does the atonement transcend time and cover the sins of those who sinned prior to Christ's atonement?

 

Is Moses in hell?  Abraham?

 

Are you claiming that nobody in the Old Testament could be considered pure in the eyes of God?

 

Mary lived according to the laws of God as she was given them.  Yes, she was pure in the eyes of God. 

 

-Stephen

Edited September 22, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[rockpond]

exceedingly fair = very pretty, beautiful (physically)

white = pure, virtuous, righteous

virgin = young woman

 

This is how I interpret those verses as well.

[filovirus]

Nephi's interpretation of his and Lehi's dream spans more than only chapter 11. Let's look at other things that are "white" in the interpretation of the dream.

1 Nephi 11:8

And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

1 Nephi 12:10-11

And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

And the angel said unto me: Look! And I looked, and beheld three generations pass away in righteousness; and their garments were white even like unto the Lamb of God. And the angel said unto me: These are made white in the blood of the Lamb, because of their faith in him.

1 Nephi 13:15

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

It's pretty clear that Nephi is describing godliness/purity when he uses the term "white".

And what about the term " fair"?

1 Nephi 13:15

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

Does this mean Nephi was commenting on the outward beauty of all the gentiles? Nephi is pretty consistent in how he describes those who follow Christ as both "fair" and "white".

[theplains]

1 Nephi 11:8

And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

1 Nephi 13:15

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

It's pretty clear that Nephi is describing godliness/purity when he uses the term "white".

.

 

Thank you.

 

I have a few questions based on your interpretation of 'white'.  

 

In 1 Nephi 11:8, was the tree more pure/godly than the snow?

 

In 1 Nephi 13:15, which Gentiles are being referred to?  Were they considered godly/pure and

beautiful for their act of slaying, something else, or both?  Who is 'my people' a reference too

which were slain?

 

Jim

[Five Solas]

Maybe this is a little distracting, but it always bothers me to hear members of the church say that Christ was probably somewhat unattractive in His mortal life.  They usually quote Isaiah's famous statements about His appearance.  But considering who Christ's parents were- God the Father and Mary (according to Nephi- most fair above all other virgins), I think Christ was probably a very beautiful person, but clothed in modest and humble clothing and "accessories."  

 

I think Mary was very beautiful, physically.

I'm surprised you've heard LDS suggest Jesus was "somewhat unattractive."  I'd be interested if you could link a conference talk or anything else that confirms what you've heard.  I suspect the overwhelming majority of LDS would assume as you do & that you'd be hard-pressed to provide something showing otherwise. 

 

In my opinion, a "very beautiful" Jesus would ever-so-slightly undermine the Biblical narrative of God condescending to become a man...

 

--Erik 

[Bobbieaware]

I'm surprised you've heard LDS suggest Jesus was "somewhat unattractive." I'd be interested if you could link a conference talk or anything else that confirms what you've heard. I suspect the overwhelming majority of LDS would assume as you do & that you'd be hard-pressed to provide something showing otherwise.

In my opinion, a "very beautiful" Jesus would ever-so-slightly undermine the Biblical narrative of God condescending to become a man...

--Erik

Over the years, I have heard many Latter-day Saints say (usually in a teaching setting) it's likely Jesus wasn't particularly handsome based on Isaiah saying "there is no beauty we should desire him."

Edited September 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Five Solas]

Over the years, I have heard many Latter-day Saints say (usually in a teaching setting) it's likely Jesus wasn't particularly handsome based on Isaiah saying "there is no beauty we should desire him."

Interesting.  You're hearing this at the grass-roots so-to-speak, not in General Conference talks or anything published in official LDS Church outlets (e.g., Ensign) - is that right? 

 

--Erik

[Bobbieaware]

The exact quote is, "He hath no form or comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty we should desire him." Your response caused me to chuckle because this same quote from Isaiah is found in the the Book of Mormon (for Latter-day Saints, it doesn't get any more authoritative than that) where the prophet Abinadi quotes Isaiah 53 verbatim. And since Isaiah's words speak for themselves (no comliness, no beauty) why should you be surprised that we Latter-day Saints should take Isaiah and Abinadi at their word? Anyway, here is what Joseph Fielding Smith had to say about the verse in question:

“There was nothing about [Jesus] to cause people to single him out. In appearance he was like men; and so it is expressed here by the prophet that he had no form or comeliness, that is, he was not so distinctive, so different from others that people would recognize him as the Son of God. He appeared as a mortal man” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 1:2)

The following is from the New Era, one of the official magazines of the Church:

"As with everything that causes us problems, we should look to the example set by the Savior’s life. In Isaiah 53:2 [isa. 53:2] it was prophesied of Christ, “When we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.” In other words, the thing that attracted the early followers of Christ to him was not his physical appearance; they were drawn to the beauty of who he really was. But while he lived on earth, those who heard him teach and followed his example were able to see true eternal beauty, while those who refused to listen and turned away saw nothing because their hearts were closed." (New Era, March 1996)

Edited September 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware