Question About The Book Of Mormon Geography Debate

[Rajah Manchou]

Do you think that the deforestation had taken place due to the burning of so much timber with limestone, so as to make lime plaster?

According to archaeologists/geologists the dry zone in Burma was once a heavily forested region. The cutting of forests to fire brick kilns for construction of cities are said to be the primary cause of forest destruction. Other main causes of deforestation in the Dry zone were: (1) population growth, (2) agricultural encroachment, (3) increasing livestock population, (4) increasing demand for fuel wood. (Source)

[Brant Gardner]

Surely it's the timescale that is critical here.  The Book of Mormon claims that this deforestation for cement production was widespread circa 50BC - a textual claim which does not match the geography of Teotihuacan for that time period nor is there evidence of cement production during that time.  Thus the supposition is that Mormon made an editorial error and was describing conditions of a later period (250AD or later) for which there is simply no textual evidence whatsoever.  It is disingenuous, in my view, for apologists to offer cement production in Teotihuacan as an item of evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon when the convergence rests on a totally unsupported textual assumption. 

Perhaps it might be disingenuous if I had not clearly stated that there was a difference in time--and offered as the explanation the presentism of the writer. Surely you are aware of the issue in historical texts that were written long after the fact. So, you might suggest that it is wrong, but certainly not disingenuous when it was explicit in the original argument.

 

As for why it might be a case of presentism, again the argument explained in the paper. Mormon is interested in that location because of current events and is trying to make the connections clear. He has a textual interest in making the connection that is greater than making a historical point that he might never have known--since he never records that any who went there came back to describe it. The explanation is textually and historically consistent, and consistent with know aspects of ancient texts.

[Robert F. Smith]

..............................................................................

4. .......................................................... for you to suggest that the Hill Cumorah wasn't in NY is a huge stretch. Every word I've ever read about it from Joseph Smith says he got the plates from the hill Cumorah. He never said otherwise.

One of the best sources on this is the 1838 "Joseph Smith - History" in the Pearl of Great Price.  There, Joseph recounts his retrieval of the plates, and does not refer to the hill as the Hill Cumorah (JS-H 1:50-54,59).  Why do so many others begin referring to the hill near Manchester as the"Hill Cumorah"?  Because they did not carefully read the Book of Mormon:  Mormon himself buries the bulk of the records in the Hill Cumorah, and then gives the Plates (which were translated by Joseph) to Moroni for safekeeping.  During the next couple of decades, Moroni makes his way into the northeastern woodlands of North America and deposits those Plates where Joseph will later unbury them.  There is no connection between the two locations.

 

5. I am not an archaeologist.

6. The DNA evidence I talked about IS correct. see above

There is also archaeological evidence supporting a stone technology on the east coast of N America which matches a stone technology from Europe. This just doesn't match an immigration from the Bering Straight 10,000 yrs ago. Sorry. I don't really care if the archaeologists tried to fit the new DNA into their Bering Straight hypothesis. They are clearly being proved wrong by archaeology, and later archaeologists are being forced to admit that the Bering Straights hyposthesis does not explain all the new findings........................................................................

Migration across Beringia began around 24,000 years ago, with many other types of migrations over the millennia, across both Pacific and Atlantic.  The only DNA evidence which should be of interest to us should be ancient DNA (aDNA).  When you have some good DNA correlations, simply cite your source for us, so that we can consider it.

Charles Q. Choi, “ Who Were the First Americans? 'Missing Link' Skeleton Offers Clues,” LiveScience.com, May 15, 2014, online at https://news.yahoo.com/were-first-americans-missing-skeleton-offers-clues-181124782.html  .

Compare also http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/11/13/000-year-old-man-yields-secrets-america-earliest-inhabitants/?intcmp=latestnews&icid=maing-grid7|responsive-tablet|dl11|sec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D562719 .

 

Please feel free to discuss how the events of the BOM need a volcano. I do acknowledge that the mist of darkness may match, but in reality for it to get that dark from a volcano, basically implies they would suffocate from all its noxious gases, and would all be dead. This seems to mitigate against a volcanic event and just be a dense fog, which really is better explained in a cool climate around a large body of water. I have been in fogs so dense that you can barely see your hand in front of you.

...............................................................................

Volcanic effects in Mesoamerica do not match your suppositions.  A good example of the effects of a powerful volcano can be found in Payson Sheets, The Ceren Site: An Ancient Village Buried by Volcanic Ash in Central America, 2nd ed. (Wadsworth, 2005); and Payson Sheets and Brian McKee, eds., Archaeology, Volcanism, and Remote Sensing in the Arenal Region, Costa Rica (Austin: University of Texas Press, 1994).

[Rajah Manchou]

Perhaps it might be disingenuous if I had not clearly stated that there was a difference in time--and offered as the explanation the presentism of the writer. Surely you are aware of the issue in historical texts that were written long after the fact. So, you might suggest that it is wrong, but certainly not disingenuous when it was explicit in the original argument.

 

As for why it might be a case of presentism, again the argument explained in the paper. Mormon is interested in that location because of current events and is trying to make the connections clear. He has a textual interest in making the connection that is greater than making a historical point that he might never have known--since he never records that any who went there came back to describe it. The explanation is textually and historically consistent, and consistent with know aspects of ancient texts.

Mormon mentions that "there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, by many of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them." It seems there were plenty of historical records available so there wouldn't have been much need for Mormon to present the history. He probably just read and summarized. There wouldn't be a need for guesswork.

Also, there was a shipping industry built up to supply timber to the people in the north so it would have been common knowledge that there wasn't much wood from 50 BC.

 

[Brant Gardner]

Mormon mentions that "there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, by many of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them." It seems there were plenty of historical records available so there wouldn't have been much need for Mormon to present the history. He probably just read and summarized. There wouldn't be a need for guesswork.

Also, there was a shipping industry built up to supply timber to the people in the north so it would have been common knowledge that there wasn't much wood from 50 BC.

 

 

Of course it comes down to how one reads the text. Your quotation follows an "and now" break, which signals a new topic in the Book of Mormon. That means that there is an unclear antecedent for "this people," which appears to be clarified in verse 14--but refers to the Nephites, not those from the north. 

 

It would be quite strange in the ancient world for a people unassociated with another pretty far away to be keeping records of that far away people. If we bring modern perspectives to the text, then it is easy--but not from an ancient perspective.

[Jonahatw]

Perhaps it might be disingenuous if I had not clearly stated that there was a difference in time--and offered as the explanation the presentism of the writer. Surely you are aware of the issue in historical texts that were written long after the fact. So, you might suggest that it is wrong, but certainly not disingenuous when it was explicit in the original argument.

 

As for why it might be a case of presentism, again the argument explained in the paper. Mormon is interested in that location because of current events and is trying to make the connections clear. He has a textual interest in making the connection that is greater than making a historical point that he might never have known--since he never records that any who went there came back to describe it. The explanation is textually and historically consistent, and consistent with know aspects of ancient texts.

 

Brant, I didn't have you directly in mind when I referenced 'apologists' above.  I'm well aware that you first espoused the 'presentism' claim and have always been up front about it.  I had in mind (and should have been clearer) second hand attempts, some of which have appeared on this board, to present the argument and then neglect to mention the crucial textual assumption upon which, in my view, the strength of the claim rests.

 

As to your presentism claim itself, I accept that it is possible, but you'll forgive me for concluding that it is rather weak.  It is, after all, mere supposition and doesn't, in my estimation, rise to the level of evidence. To me it looks like a wresting of the text to overcome the obvious time mismatch because you want their to be a connection between Helaman 3 and Teotihuacan, when the better explanation is that there is no connection because there's no connection between the Book of Mormon and real world archeology.  Yes I accept that historical presentism is a feature of other ancient texts but this doesn't itself constitute a reason to think that that is what is going on in the case of Helaman 3.  While an editorial error is possible, ultimately, it is just an argument from ignorance in this case.  I think you describe it in your paper as a 'major problem' and I certainly agree.

[Brant Gardner]

To me it looks like a wresting of the text to overcome the obvious time mismatch because you want their to be a connection between Helaman 3 and Teotihuacan, when the better explanation is that there is no connection because there's no connection between the Book of Mormon and real world archeology. 

 

I find it interesting that it is always wresting the text to assume that it was written anciently and therefore obeys ancient styles and interests rather than the modern literalism that I am wresting it away from. From my perspective, reading any ancient text and simply assuming literalism according to modern interpretations is a greater wresting of the text.

 

Still, if there were only that one point to try to match up with history, I would have to agree. It isn't very strong by itself. However, in the context of a lot of other evidence, it becomes not only stronger, but a much more plausible explanation of the text than the random chance that there would be such a literary interdependence with history in a text that simply made up its history. 

[Russell C McGregor]

I think I know your brother Fu.

The one who hatched fiendish plots?

[Russell C McGregor]

I actually believe the BoM mostly took place around the region of the Great Lakes, and largely because of the geographic descriptions which I feel do not match mesoamerica. The Great Lakes region has the narrow neck of land of one day's journey, and can match the description of the 4 seas. It also has the Hill Cumorah - the final resting place of the plates, etc.

Problem: Mormon's Cumorah is north of the Nephite lands, and close to the Narrow Neck. Moroni's Cumorah is south of the Great Lakes.

And where is the northward-flowing river?

 

It is also backed by revelations in D&C referring to the local Indians as Lamanites, and statements of Joseph Smith regarding Zelph who placed the people in the area of the heartland. It also happens to correspond the timeframe of a specific mound building culture which we know disappeared at the time the BoM ended in 400 AD. It also happens to correspond with recent DNA evidence placing haplogroup X mtDNA in the region which corresponds to the Middle East rather than Asia which has basically none, as well as male haplogroup R DNA which corresponds to Europe and the Middle East rather than Asia as well and certain groups of Hebrews including Levites. Whereas known DNA of the MesoAmerica area correspond best with DNA found in Asia.

As time has passed there has been more evidence to support a heartland model.

The next problem is the notion of a "heartland" as in a land that is dear to the "hearts" -- of USAmericans.

The main attraction for the "heartland model" seems to be emotional rather than textual. Ultra-nationalistic, almost jingoistic American amour propre appears to be the driving mainspring.

 

The destruction can certainly be accounted for by the Mississippi River basin fault system, which is known to have produced substantial earthquakes and land shifting. There is a subsidance of the land in the fault zone of up to 15 feet which is directly attrubuted to one such quake in 1812. Cement structures could certainly be shaken to bits in such a quake without reinforcing steel, etc. We don't need a volcano to account for the events described.

 

Just thought I'd weigh in on the matter with a few thoughts, because I don't agree with your broad characterizations.

Cheers

Apart from the minor detail that the Mississippi flows in exactly the wrong direction, your model is wonderful.

Lou Midgley once pointed out that the North Island of New Zealand fits geographically far better than any US American model. The Waikato river flows northward, there are active volcanoes, and the land north of the Isthmus of Auckland is even called Northland!

Finding the actual setting requires more than wishful thinking. Sorry.

 

[hagoth7]

The next problem is the notion of a "heartland" as in a land that is dear to the "hearts" -- of USAmericans.

The main attraction for the "heartland model" seems to be emotional rather than textual. Ultra-nationalistic, almost jingoistic American amour propre appears to be the driving mainspring.

Finding the actual setting requires more than wishful thinking. Sorry.

 

I'm not an American citizen, and I'm currently of the opinion that Mesoamerica was not the epicenter of Nephite activity. (Although I'm quite willing to modify my opinion, if needed.)

I'm also of the opinion, per Pres. Hinckley's relatively recent encouragement (among other things), that we are to publish peace, not war.

 

So how is such a stance nationalistic and/or jingoistic?

 

If you actually hear and consider the assertions for such a model, they are based on a genuine attempt to understand concrete Nephite prophecy.

 

To say such things are nothing more than wishful thinking are quite dismissive and uncharitable, IMO.

Edited September 18, 2015 by hagoth7

[Rajah Manchou]

 

The main attraction for the "heartland model" seems to be emotional rather than textual. Ultra-nationalistic, almost jingoistic American amour propre appears to be the driving mainspring.

Lou Midgley once pointed out that the North Island of New Zealand fits geographically far better than any US American model. The Waikato river flows northward, there are active volcanoes, and the land north of the Isthmus of Auckland is even called Northland!

Finding the actual setting requires more than wishful thinking. Sorry.

The very first geographical reference in the Book of Mormon is that they were on an island in the sea, surrounded by other islands that were already inhabited by other Hebrews. That's clearly not Mesoamerica, or the Heartland. I think we should start considering models in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. 

Once you start looking in a location that actually has elephants, silk, chariots, iron, swords, writing, shipbuilding, etc. then things start to fall into place, and the Book of Mormon really does become a historical document tracing the path of groups from the Middle East across the isles of the sea to the New World. 

 

[hagoth7]

The very first geographical reference in the Book of Mormon is that they were on an island in the sea, surrounded by other islands that were already inhabited by other Hebrews.

Where do you get the implication of "surrounded"?

 

Once you start looking in a location that actually has elephants, silk, chariots, iron, swords, writing, shipbuilding, etc. then things start to fall into place, and the Book of Mormon really does become a historical document tracing the path of groups from the Middle East across the isles of the sea to the New World.

Interesting premise.

[Jonahatw]

I find it interesting that it is always wresting the text to assume that it was written anciently and therefore obeys ancient styles and interests rather than the modern literalism that I am wresting it away from. From my perspective, reading any ancient text and simply assuming literalism according to modern interpretations is a greater wresting of the text.

 

Still, if there were only that one point to try to match up with history, I would have to agree. It isn't very strong by itself. However, in the context of a lot of other evidence, it becomes not only stronger, but a much more plausible explanation of the text than the random chance that there would be such a literary interdependence with history in a text that simply made up its history. 

 

And what about allowing the text to speak for itself in this instance?  Hasn't this been a strong emphasis among apologists ever since the fall out of the DNA challenge against the Book of Mormon... We were frequently told that we long made inaccurate assumptions and inferences based on a misreading of the text, the danger of going beyond what the text actually says etc.  And yet that is exactly what you are doing with your 'presentism' theory and you are doing it because without it your Teotihuacan claim is severely weakened and you have all but admitted as much.  If we allow Helaman 3 to speak for itself without the unnecessary postulation of an editorial error for which there is no good evidence either inside or outside the text we are left with the following: 

 

1.  Reverse causation which might very well reflect the author's poor grasp of the process of cement production

and

2.  a 400 year mismatch between geographical conditions as described in the text and corresponding conditions as evidenced in the specified location.

 

Doesn't look good.  But as you say, one weak convergence on its own can easily be dismissed, but a body of weak convergences suddenly becomes strong?  Or am I reading you uncharitably?

[Rajah Manchou]

Where do you get the implication of "surrounded"?

If we look at the world from the perspective of the Lehites in 600 BC, everything beyond the Arabian Peninsula would have been contained in a sealed-off sea full of islands. There was no known Pacific Ocean or North/South American continent until the early 16th century, just before Magellan circumnavigated the globe.

All that the Mulekites and Lehites would have known in 600 BC was that there was a land of gold (Ophir) somewhere in a sea of "islands" to the east, and that those islands were possibly inhabited by traders that had been sent by Solomon. The historical record does offer some evidence of this. There is a group of Jews in India with some memory of leaving the Arabian Peninsula on merchant vessels. The Lemba tribe in Zimbabwe claims to have come across the sea after escaping captivity in Babylon and DNA testing shows they have Cohen ancestry. So there is some hint of evidence to back up Jacob's claim in 2 Nephi that the "islands of the sea" were inhabited by Israelite migrants before 600 BC. 

My thinking is that the Mulekites and Lehites (or anyone before 100 AD) would not have known there was anything beyond the Indian Ocean. The Malay Peninsula forms a gigantic wall that was nearly impassable, a formidable enough barrier that it wasn't conquered by Europeans until the 15th century. From Lehi's perspective, this would have looked like the end of the road, a "narrow neck of land" in a closed off sea surrounded by other islands. The most knowledgable geographers and cartographers from 100 AD to 1492 AD believed the Indian Ocean was the end of the world and that it was a sea of islands, possibly inhabited by Hebrew/Phoenician/Sabean traders. I assume Jacob and Nephi would have had the same perspective and that seems to come through in the text:

 

20 ...we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea.

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

22 For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also.

This isn't to say that the remnant of the Lehites didn't eventually reach the New World, they just took the "slow boat". But even if Lehi did manage the feat of passing through the dangerous Straits of Malacca, past hundreds of islands to eventually cross the Pacific Ocean to reach South America, it seems they still believed they were on an island surrounded by a number of other inhabited islands, or so it seemed from their perspective. Remember the Book of Mormon is a record of the people of the American continent and the "source from whence they sprang". If we include the islands of the sea as a source, then it isn't too difficult to get in step with history and the archaeological record.

 

[Brant Gardner]

And what about allowing the text to speak for itself in this instance?  

 

Texts seldom do. We speak for them in the way we read them and explain them to ourselves. In this case, Mormon is speaking. Do we suggest that the text reflects Mormon, or that it reflects some ideal of perfected God-breathed communication? Do we suggest that there was no Mormon so the text must be Joseph speaking? 

 

Personally, I approach the text as an ethnohistorian would (with a text assumed to be authentic). That is a very different approach from a religious fundamentalist reading. It is different from a devotional reading. It is also different from an archaeological reading that assumes a literal reading. Same words. The text may be speaking, but it really doesn't speak for itself. There is always something of our reading in it.

[Jonahatw]

Texts seldom do. We speak for them in the way we read them and explain them to ourselves. In this case, Mormon is speaking. Do we suggest that the text reflects Mormon, or that it reflects some ideal of perfected God-breathed communication? Do we suggest that there was no Mormon so the text must be Joseph speaking? 

 

Personally, I approach the text as an ethnohistorian would (with a text assumed to be authentic). That is a very different approach from a religious fundamentalist reading. It is different from a devotional reading. It is also different from an archaeological reading that assumes a literal reading. Same words. The text may be speaking, but it really doesn't speak for itself. There is always something of our reading in it.

 

Thanks Brant, appreciate the discussion.

[Calm]

"Hasn't this been a strong emphasis among apologists ever since the fall out of the DNA challenge against the Book of Mormon.."

Are you speaking about the limited geography theories as opposed to a hemispheric?

[RevTestament]

One of the best sources on this is the 1838 "Joseph Smith - History" in the Pearl of Great Price.  There, Joseph recounts his retrieval of the plates, and does not refer to the hill as the Hill Cumorah (JS-H 1:50-54,59).  Why do so many others begin referring to the hill near Manchester as the"Hill Cumorah"?  Because they did not carefully read the Book of Mormon:  Mormon himself buries the bulk of the records in the Hill Cumorah, and then gives the Plates (which were translated by Joseph) to Moroni for safekeeping.  During the next couple of decades, Moroni makes his way into the northeastern woodlands of North America and deposits those Plates where Joseph will later unbury them.  There is no connection between the two locations.

Conceded. Not necessarily anyway. However, Moroni gives no hint of traveling thousands of miles away either.

However, the narrative of the Book of Mormon concerning the downtrodding of the Lamanites by the newcomers again is highly suggestive of N. America as well as D & C revelations concerning the locale of N Jerusalem.

 

 

 

Migration across Beringia began around 24,000 years ago, with many other types of migrations over the millennia, across both Pacific and Atlantic.  The only DNA evidence which should be of interest to us should be ancient DNA (aDNA).  When you have some good DNA correlations, simply cite your source for us, so that we can consider it.

Charles Q. Choi, “ Who Were the First Americans? 'Missing Link' Skeleton Offers Clues,” LiveScience.com, May 15, 2014, online at https://news.yahoo.com/were-first-americans-missing-skeleton-offers-clues-181124782.html  .

Compare also http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/11/13/000-year-old-man-yields-secrets-america-earliest-inhabitants/?intcmp=latestnews&icid=maing-grid7|responsive-tablet|dl11|sec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D562719 .

 

I really don't understand why ancient DNA should be of much interest to us regarding the BOM ie DNA before Adam. Do you not believe the timeline of the BOM? The Lamanites would not date in the Americas prior to 600 BC. Therefore, the Kennewik man is basically irrelevant. Plus, that release is a bit premature. I will wait for a more conclusive genetic profile before drawing any conclusions about him.

As for other genetic studies, here is a recent one:

 “In geographic plots, R1 frequencies in native populations, of the Great Lakes/ Algonquian-speakers stand out as the great majority, having among the highest worldwide R1 rates (e.g., Malhi et al. 2008; and World frequency map as of 1 June 2014), even higher than non-western Europe and far higher than other Native Americans (c. 0 – 10 per cent). When further characterized in the USA (Hammer et al. 2005), 97 per cent of R1 had the M269 SNP (unambiguous Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), which defines R1b1b, the main West European Y-haplogroup, which possibly originated there before the LGM (Morelli et al. 2010). The less-reliable P25 was used in an earlier US study (Zegura et al. 2004)."

http://www.academia.edu/9562579/Solutrean_hypothesis_genetics_the_mammoth_in_the_room

 

I find the genetics to be consistent with a few men who left Jerusalem and picked up wives in the Middle East along their journey......

Much moreso than trying to say the genetics of the Great Lakes Indians is due to a migration across all of Asia and across a frozen land bridge.

The western European insistence that Columbus was the first to "discover" America by boat is clearly not so. We know the Vikings found Greenland. We know ancient peoples used boats for fishing and trade. The fact that they may not have returned to report it, doesn't mean they didn't make the journey.

 

 

Volcanic effects in Mesoamerica do not match your suppositions.  A good example of the effects of a powerful volcano can be found in Payson Sheets, The Ceren Site: An Ancient Village Buried by Volcanic Ash in Central America, 2nd ed. (Wadsworth, 2005); and Payson Sheets and Brian McKee, eds., Archaeology, Volcanism, and Remote Sensing in the Arenal Region, Costa Rica (Austin: University of Texas Press, 1994).

Why don't you describe it for me? I don't debate with citations.

R U suggesting that one can live through a volcanic ash event so bad that a fire cannot be lit, and yet be able to breathe etc?

 

Again, I find it more plausible that a mist of darkness of a thick fog matches the description. It would be wet enough to prevent the lighting of a fire, yet survivable.

That, or it was a mist of darkness imposed upon their minds. Acts 13:11.

[RevTestament]

Problem: Mormon's Cumorah is north of the Nephite lands, and close to the Narrow Neck. Moroni's Cumorah is south of the Great Lakes.

And where is the northward-flowing river?

Please cite scriptural references stating Cumorah is north of the Nephite lands.

The BOM says those that tried to escape southward perished. This does not exclude the possibility that Cumorah is eastward.

The St Lawrence river is a large river flowing north between Lake Eerie and Ontario.

 

 

 

The next problem is the notion of a "heartland" as in a land that is dear to the "hearts" -- of USAmericans.

The main attraction for the "heartland model" seems to be emotional rather than textual. Ultra-nationalistic, almost jingoistic American amour propre appears to be the driving mainspring.

 

Apart from the minor detail that the Mississippi flows in exactly the wrong direction, your model is wonderful.

 

Thanks. Yep, the Mississippi doesn't appear to be the River Sidon.

I'm not emotionally attached to the model at all. Convince me that MesoAmerica can possibly fit. I've never seen it.  Nothing matches up except some elephant art, ancient mastadon excavations and cement. Otherwise nada in my mind. Pyramids are wrong type and wrong time. Geography doesn't seem to match.

 

 

Lou Midgley once pointed out that the North Island of New Zealand fits geographically far better than any US American model. The Waikato river flows northward, there are active volcanoes, and the land north of the Isthmus of Auckland is even called Northland!

Finding the actual setting requires more than wishful thinking. Sorry.

Having the people survive the choking, poisonous fumes of a volcanic event is wishful thinking. The Great Lakes region is the best match that I have found. Convince me otherwise. It has the right types of earth mound structures, the right geography, and the closest DNA. The Indians there were clearly different than those in the west and in S. America by far in both stature and general appearance. It is clear to me that some Indian groups did have an Asian lineage. It is also now becoming accepted that some did not. This is not ruled out by the BOM which plainly tells us of 2 peoples which were in the land before Lehi's group.

[Robert F. Smith]

Conceded. Not necessarily anyway. However, Moroni gives no hint of traveling thousands of miles away either.

....................................................................

Since the only locale in the Western Hemisphere with writing, large populations, and high civilization is Mesoamerica, it is natural to expect that Moroni begins his journey there.  A journey which many have taken in primitive but historical times.

 

I really don't understand why ancient DNA should be of much interest to us regarding the BOM ie DNA before Adam. Do you not believe the timeline of the BOM? The Lamanites would not date in the Americas prior to 600 BC. Therefore, the Kennewik man is basically irrelevant. Plus, that release is a bit premature. I will wait for a more conclusive genetic profile before drawing any conclusions about him.

Ancient DNA (aDNA) refers to DNA from skeletal remains rather than from modern tribes.  It has nothing to do with Adam.

 

 

As for other genetic studies, here is a recent one:

 “In geographic plots, R1 frequencies in native populations, of the Great Lakes/ Algonquian-speakers stand out as the great majority, having among the highest worldwide R1 rates (e.g., Malhi et al. 2008; and World frequency map as of 1 June 2014), even higher than non-western Europe and far higher than other Native Americans (c. 0 – 10 per cent). When further characterized in the USA (Hammer et al. 2005), 97 per cent of R1 had the M269 SNP (unambiguous Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), which defines R1b1b, the main West European Y-haplogroup, which possibly originated there before the LGM (Morelli et al. 2010). The less-reliable P25 was used in an earlier US study (Zegura et al. 2004)."

http://www.academia.edu/9562579/Solutrean_hypothesis_genetics_the_mammoth_in_the_room

 

I find the genetics to be consistent with a few men who left Jerusalem and picked up wives in the Middle East along their journey......

So which haplotypes in this article match the Middle Eastern haplotypes?

 

 

..............................................................................................................

Why don't you describe it for me? I don't debate with citations.

R U suggesting that one can live through a volcanic ash event so bad that a fire cannot be lit, and yet be able to breathe etc?

 

Again, I find it more plausible that a mist of darkness of a thick fog matches the description. It would be wet enough to prevent the lighting of a fire, yet survivable.

................................................................

You do need to at least try to read actual accounts of volcanic eruptions and their effects for yourself, before forming your opinions. You might want to at least consider that not everyone dies when a Mt Saint Helens or Mauna Loa erupts in modern times. John Sorenson provides succinct coverage of Mesoamerican volcanic effects in his An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (1985), 318-323. FAIRMORMON also has an excellent descriptive analysis: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Three_days_of_darkness .

Here is a short, scholarly video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4ocLDQ7MsA .

Your version of what takes place is false.

[PeterPear]

Since the only locale in the Western Hemisphere with writing, large populations, and high civilization is Mesoamerica, it is natural to expect that Moroni begins his journey there.  A journey which many have taken in primitive but historical times.

 

 

Dr. Sorenson admitted in his "Open Letter To Dr. Coe" that the Maya were not the Nephites, but likely Lamanites, to paraphrase him. Maya glyphs are in no way similar to the characters on the gold plates. Nor did the Lamanites have a written language but were later taught the language of the Nephites via the wicked Priests of King Noah. The Nephites also taught the Mulekites the Nephite language as the Mulekites language became corrupted before meeting the Nephites.   So your language claim is inaccurate. It doesn't match the scriptures.

[RevTestament]

Since the only locale in the Western Hemisphere with writing, large populations, and high civilization is Mesoamerica, it is natural to expect that Moroni begins his journey there.  A journey which many have taken in primitive but historical times.

 

Ancient DNA (aDNA) refers to DNA from skeletal remains rather than from modern tribes.  It has nothing to do with Adam.

Yeah, my point is your links were to the 1. 1st inhabitants of America, and 2. Kinnewik man both of which science place well before the time of Adam of 4000 BC. I see no relevance in those links.

 

I also noticed you edited out this part of my argument:

 

However, the narrative of the Book of Mormon concerning the downtrodding of the Lamanites by the newcomers again is highly suggestive of N. America as well as D & C revelations concerning the locale of N Jerusalem.

The natives of MesoAmerica and S America are still largely there, while the natives in N America were almost wiped out.

The locale of the New Jerusalem appears to be the heartland.

 

 So which haplotypes in this article match the Middle Eastern haplotypes?

 The Middle East has changed drastically since 600 BC, but R and X are at least tenable matches.

Which haplogroups of MesoAmerican natives match?

 

 

You do need to at least try to read actual accounts of volcanic eruptions and their effects for yourself, before forming your opinions. You might want to at least consider that not everyone dies when a Mt Saint Helens or Mauna Loa erupts in modern times. John Sorenson provides succinct coverage of Mesoamerican volcanic effects in his An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (1985), 318-323. FAIRMORMON also has an excellent descriptive analysis: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Three_days_of_darkness .

Here is a short, scholarly video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4ocLDQ7MsA .

Your version of what takes place is false.

No, it's not. From your own link:

"A concentration of dense volcanic gases (carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide) at ground level is sufficient to prevent igniting of the kindling and to cause suffocation

The inability to ignite the exceedingly dry wood is interesting in view of the fact that a few people are also described as dying from suffocation during the period of destruction which preceded the period of darkness (3 Nephi 10:13). This suggests that in some regions the concentration of dense volcanic gases (carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide) at ground level was sufficient to prevent igniting of the kindling and to cause suffocation. The uncle of Pliny died of suffocation as a consequence of a volcanic eruption."

 

If you can't light a fire from volcanic gases you are close to death.

[PeterPear]

Please cite scriptural references stating Cumorah is north of the Nephite lands.

The BOM says those that tried to escape southward perished. This does not exclude the possibility that Cumorah is eastward.

The St Lawrence river is a large river flowing north between Lake Eerie and Ontario.

 

Thanks. Yep, the Mississippi doesn't appear to be the River Sidon.

I'm not emotionally attached to the model at all. Convince me that MesoAmerica can possibly fit. I've never seen it.  Nothing matches up except some elephant art, ancient mastadon excavations and cement. Otherwise nada in my mind. Pyramids are wrong type and wrong time. Geography doesn't seem to match.

 

Having the people survive the choking, poisonous fumes of a volcanic event is wishful thinking. The Great Lakes region is the best match that I have found. Convince me otherwise. It has the right types of earth mound structures, the right geography, and the closest DNA. The Indians there were clearly different than those in the west and in S. America by far in both stature and general appearance. It is clear to me that some Indian groups did have an Asian lineage. It is also now becoming accepted that some did not. This is not ruled out by the BOM which plainly tells us of 2 peoples which were in the land before Lehi's group.

 

http://www.new-madrid.mo.us/index.aspx?nid=132

 

This site talks of the Earthquake Fog that occurred during the New Madrid earthquake in 1812:

 

Earthquake Smog

The skies turned dark during the earthquakes, so dark that lighted lamps didn’t help. The air smelled bad, and it was hard to breathe. It is speculated that it was smog containing dust particles caused by the eruption of warm water into cold air.

 

Sounds a lot like what is described in the Book of Mormon - lighted fire didn't help with the darkness; overcome by the mist, etc.

 

Here's another site:

http://www.tnhistoryforkids.org/insearchof/new_madrid_earthquake

 

"The “sulphurous vapor” that Bryan mentioned was a chemical released by the earth that engulfed the entire region with a fog-like covering for months."

 

This mentions a fog after the earthquake:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FZCDAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=new+madrid+earthquake+fog&source=bl&ots=WOJ9Rpcn_G&sig=l7ieZVb7qw6J5Wo5L_R9NA5YgRE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGMQ6AEwDWoVChMI_obCh8SByAIVyXk-Ch35zgSi#v=onepage&q=new%20madrid%20earthquake%20fog&f=false

 

Here's a USGS article:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0494/report.pdf

 

Page 44

 

"

Darkness.

 

 

As in most of the great earthquakes the atmosphere

seems to have become darkened during the more severe shocks in the

Mississippi Valley. Eliza Bryan notes that total darkness accompanied

the first shock, while a similar

 

" awful darkness of the atmosphere"

marked the severe shock of 4 p. m. on February 7.2 Godfrey

Le Sieur also says a

 

" dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the

land" after the severe shocks.2 At Herculaneum the atmosphere,

according to Col. Samuel Hammond, was filled with smoke or fog so

that a boat could not be seen 20 paces, and houses were so shrouded

as not to be visible 50 feet. The air did not clear until the middle

of the day.3 A writer from New Madrid states that at the time of

the shock the air was clear, but in five minutes it became very dark,

and the darkness continued until nearly morning, during which period

there were six shocks. At 6.30 the air cleared, but at the severe

shock later in the morning the darkness returned."

[Brant Gardner]

This site talks of the Earthquake Fog that occurred during the New Madrid earthquake in 1812:

 

 

You missed the problem with that earthquake. It is in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is considered an extremely rare occurrence, perhaps unique. There is no record of a similar earthquake during any Book of Mormon time, let alone at the time frame of Christ's death.

 

If that weren't sufficient, there are aspects of the Book of Mormon event that cannot be explained by an earthquake. Please see the geologists that were cited earlier. Since you cited the USGS, I'm sure you are willing to believe geologists.

[RevTestament]

http://www.new-madrid.mo.us/index.aspx?nid=132

 

This site talks of the Earthquake Fog that occurred during the New Madrid earthquake in 1812:

 

Earthquake Smog

The skies turned dark during the earthquakes, so dark that lighted lamps didn’t help. The air smelled bad, and it was hard to breathe. It is speculated that it was smog containing dust particles caused by the eruption of warm water into cold air.

 

Sounds a lot like what is described in the Book of Mormon - lighted fire didn't help with the darkness; overcome by the mist, etc.

 

Here's another site:

http://www.tnhistoryforkids.org/insearchof/new_madrid_earthquake

 

"The “sulphurous vapor” that Bryan mentioned was a chemical released by the earth that engulfed the entire region with a fog-like covering for months."

 

This mentions a fog after the earthquake:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FZCDAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=new+madrid+earthquake+fog&source=bl&ots=WOJ9Rpcn_G&sig=l7ieZVb7qw6J5Wo5L_R9NA5YgRE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGMQ6AEwDWoVChMI_obCh8SByAIVyXk-Ch35zgSi#v=onepage&q=new%20madrid%20earthquake%20fog&f=false

 

Here's a USGS article:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0494/report.pdf

 

Page 44

 

"

Darkness.

 

 

As in most of the great earthquakes the atmosphere

seems to have become darkened during the more severe shocks in the

Mississippi Valley. Eliza Bryan notes that total darkness accompanied

the first shock, while a similar

 

" awful darkness of the atmosphere"

marked the severe shock of 4 p. m. on February 7.2 Godfrey

Le Sieur also says a

 

" dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the

land" after the severe shocks.2 At Herculaneum the atmosphere,

according to Col. Samuel Hammond, was filled with smoke or fog so

that a boat could not be seen 20 paces, and houses were so shrouded

as not to be visible 50 feet. The air did not clear until the middle

of the day.3 A writer from New Madrid states that at the time of

the shock the air was clear, but in five minutes it became very dark,

and the darkness continued until nearly morning, during which period

there were six shocks. At 6.30 the air cleared, but at the severe

shock later in the morning the darkness returned."

Thank you much for those references. Wow, didn't know that about the 1812 earthquake. Most earthquakes don't seem to have that effect. Another thing I can look at.