Avatar4321 Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/toward-ever-more-intelligent-discipleship/Read this essay by Dr. P and thought it would be good to share.Any thoughts? 1
mfbukowski Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Based on my perceptions alone which are very uninformed, I see this as a step in the right direction. Justified or not, I think DCP has been perceived as a "traditionalist" in his defense of the church- and there is certainly a need for that view, but I think between this article and his FAIR presentation it indicates that he is now moving to explore different paradigms of belief. I know that he is a good friend of Dr. Hamblin who is definitely a traditionalist, and perhaps that image has rubbed off on DCP. As I said- I don't follow all this academic politics stuff- in fact I got out of academics precisely because I hated it all. But DCP is tremendously influential in the apologist community obviously, and I hope this signals a move in that community as well I have been saying for 35 years that Mormons have no clue about what they have to give the world due to our own insularity and suspicion of the "philosophies of men" and perhaps now that wall is showing cracks in the facade There is no problem with doctrine, the problem is how it is perceived. It's time to grow up and join the intellectual world outside the church to at least explain our wonderful world view in terms they can understand, and that is through humanism. If God is human, human progression becomes religion, and humanism also affirms this. We just need to better define what humanism means in an LDS context 3
Five Solas Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Okay, I ain't got a PhD or nothing--but thought I might apply my fingers to the keyboard & make reply to Dr. Peterson. Go easy on me.;0) From the article-- Growing up in the fifties and sixties, it was easy to assume that American society respected Latter-day Saints.…For example, Americans seemed to honor ideals of faithful, heterosexual marriage, with fathers taking the lead and mothers caring for children. Society was, in other words, largely in sync with, and supportive of, fundamental, practical Mormon values... Of course if you turned the clock back to the 1850’s & 60's instead of the 20th century’s decades—the above statement would be nothing short of hysterical. So what happened? Mormonism jettisoned many of its distinctives and caught itself up with contemporary American culture (with polygamy being the most obvious & oft cited, though hardly the sole example). And what does this little look back at history suggest for the future? As society continues to evolve, will Mormonism, “Prosper if it draws deeply from its own well”--as Dr. Peterson writes? Doubtful. I would submit it’s much more likely the LDS Church will continue with its cycles of relative stagnation punctuated by periodic events and revelations that catch things up with the broader culture. The 1978 “revelation” would be a very obvious example, catching LDS up to trends that had been going on in decades previous with the Civil Rights Movement. But Civil Rights wasn’t the 20th century’s only change agent. The experience of Prohibition, the New Deal and WWII likewise spurred momentous changes in the teaching & thinking of LDS Church leaders. (Recall LDS Prophet Heber J. Grant argued from the pulpit for isolationism as the Nazis over-ran Western Europe.) On to the future: For those advocating equality (including marriage equality) for homosexuals—the past is certainly cause for hope. Mormonism may be in another of those periods of stagnation, but things will change as it starts to get hot in the proverbial kitchen. They always do. It just takes a little thing like denial of statehood, Pearl Harbor or a threat to BYU’s tax exempt status—and leadership will lurch into a fresh new phase. Whatever happens to be in that deep well—it can very well stay down there. And that, quite honestly, might be the best thing for Utah & the nation. How did I do? --Erik 2
Jeanne Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 The never changing church is forever changing. 1
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted September 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted September 13, 2015 Okay, I ain't got a PhD or nothing--but thought I might apply my fingers to the keyboard & make reply to Dr. Peterson. Go easy on me.;0) From the article-- Growing up in the fifties and sixties, it was easy to assume that American society respected Latter-day Saints.…For example, Americans seemed to honor ideals of faithful, heterosexual marriage, with fathers taking the lead and mothers caring for children. Society was, in other words, largely in sync with, and supportive of, fundamental, practical Mormon values... Of course if you turned the clock back to the 1850’s & 60's instead of the 20th century’s decades—the above statement would be nothing short of hysterical. So what happened? Mormonism jettisoned many of its distinctives and caught itself up with contemporary American culture (with polygamy being the most obvious & oft cited, though hardly the sole example). And what does this little look back at history suggest for the future? As society continues to evolve, will Mormonism, “Prosper if it draws deeply from its own well”--as Dr. Peterson writes? Doubtful. I would submit it’s much more likely the LDS Church will continue with its cycles of relative stagnation punctuated by periodic events and revelations that catch things up with the broader culture. The 1978 “revelation” would be a very obvious example, catching LDS up to trends that had been going on in decades previous with the Civil Rights Movement. But Civil Rights wasn’t the 20th century’s only change agent. The experience of Prohibition, the New Deal and WWII likewise spurred momentous changes in the teaching & thinking of LDS Church leaders. (Recall LDS Prophet Heber J. Grant argued from the pulpit for isolationism as the Nazis over-ran Western Europe.) On to the future: For those advocating equality (including marriage equality) for homosexuals—the past is certainly cause for hope. Mormonism may be in another of those periods of stagnation, but things will change as it starts to get hot in the proverbial kitchen. They always do. It just takes a little thing like denial of statehood, Pearl Harbor or a threat to BYU’s tax exempt status—and leadership will lurch into a fresh new phase. Whatever happens to be in that deep well—it can very well stay down there. And that, quite honestly, might be the best thing for Utah & the nation. How did I do? --ErikYou got it backwards, Erik. This is the golden age of Mormonism. You can't see the forest for the trees. True enough, vain and narcissitic people love to laugh at us knowingly, and "The Book of Mormon" Broadway musical is in no sense praising us. Yet we have come into our own as a worldwide religion with something profound to offer all mankind. We have taken the lemons brazenly handed to us and are busy making lemonade. True intellects are not laughing at us any longer. They have instead become our friends and allies. Haven't you noticed? 5
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted September 13, 2015 Popular Post Posted September 13, 2015 The never changing church is forever changing.Eternal progression? 5
Robert F. Smith Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 ................................................................... But DCP is tremendously influential in the apologist community obviously, and I hope this signals a move in that community as well ...................................................................As long as he can keep his wonderful sense of humor, Dan will do just fine. 1
Storm Rider Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 When we look at religion on a world wide scale it is easy to see that the fastest growing religions are those of a more socially conservative doctrinal system. It amazes me at how fast Islam is growing and yet few would accuse it of having even a liberal wing to their religion. Conversely, when we look at liberal Christianity it appears to be dying on the vine. It has opened its doors so wide that it has no set doctrine because all teachings are judged good and right. There is no direction and, consequently, there is no salvation being offered. I would agree with Robert, this is a golden age for the restored church of Jesus Christ. It offers firm doctrinal beliefs that answers the nagging questions of mankind and provides answers to what the future holds. There will always be those bedraggled seeds that have fallen among the tares, whose faith has been straggled and their unending barrage of complaints. However, the Body of Christ marches on; all are called to repentance and to take upon themselves the name of Christ. 2
The Nehor Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Okay, I ain't got a PhD or nothing--but thought I might apply my fingers to the keyboard & make reply to Dr. Peterson. Go easy on me.;0) From the article-- Growing up in the fifties and sixties, it was easy to assume that American society respected Latter-day Saints.…For example, Americans seemed to honor ideals of faithful, heterosexual marriage, with fathers taking the lead and mothers caring for children. Society was, in other words, largely in sync with, and supportive of, fundamental, practical Mormon values... Of course if you turned the clock back to the 1850’s & 60's instead of the 20th century’s decades—the above statement would be nothing short of hysterical. So what happened? Mormonism jettisoned many of its distinctives and caught itself up with contemporary American culture (with polygamy being the most obvious & oft cited, though hardly the sole example). And what does this little look back at history suggest for the future? As society continues to evolve, will Mormonism, “Prosper if it draws deeply from its own well”--as Dr. Peterson writes? Doubtful. I would submit it’s much more likely the LDS Church will continue with its cycles of relative stagnation punctuated by periodic events and revelations that catch things up with the broader culture. The 1978 “revelation” would be a very obvious example, catching LDS up to trends that had been going on in decades previous with the Civil Rights Movement. But Civil Rights wasn’t the 20th century’s only change agent. The experience of Prohibition, the New Deal and WWII likewise spurred momentous changes in the teaching & thinking of LDS Church leaders. (Recall LDS Prophet Heber J. Grant argued from the pulpit for isolationism as the Nazis over-ran Western Europe.) On to the future: For those advocating equality (including marriage equality) for homosexuals—the past is certainly cause for hope. Mormonism may be in another of those periods of stagnation, but things will change as it starts to get hot in the proverbial kitchen. They always do. It just takes a little thing like denial of statehood, Pearl Harbor or a threat to BYU’s tax exempt status—and leadership will lurch into a fresh new phase. Whatever happens to be in that deep well—it can very well stay down there. And that, quite honestly, might be the best thing for Utah & the nation. How did I do? --ErikYou did badly. I would explain but you asked us to go easy on you. 1
mfbukowski Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) You got it backwards, Erik. This is the golden age of Mormonism. You can't see the forest for the trees. True enough, vain and narcissitic people love to laugh at us knowingly, and "The Book of Mormon" Broadway musical is in no sense praising us. Yet we have come into our own as a worldwide religion with something profound to offer all mankind. We have taken the lemons brazenly handed to us and are busy making lemonade. True intellects are not laughing at us any longer. They have instead become our friends and allies. Haven't you noticed?When people figure out that the Council of the Gods is humanistic social constructivism raised to the level of theology, we will have the potential to change the earth. It's exactly what secularism is looking for with all the talk of secular "religions" and all. But don't tell anyone. I mean we don't want to peak too early or anything like that. I mean it's only been 185 years that this idea has been around and unnoticed by the church. I mean look at this: Curious about Secular Humanism?If you’ve rejected traditional religion (or were never religious to start), you may be asking, “Is that all there is?” It’s liberating to recognize that supernatural beings are human creations … that there are no such things as “spirit” or “transcendence”... that people are undesigned, unintended, and responsible for themselves. https://www.secularhumanism.org/"Supernatural beings are human creations"- indeed they are- created by our Human Father in Heaven.Spirit? Yes there is such thing- but guess what? It is material!! Mormons are materialists as well as secular humanists are materialists- we just see it a tad differently. Transcendence? No problem- our God is immanent. People are undesigned? We need a little work there and that statement is not falsifiable. Oops- they are contradicting themselves in believing things which cannot be proven ! And what does it mean for parents to "design" their children? Does that make sense? Did God design his own body? Not if we believe the King Follette discourse. Clearly now more than ever children ARE "intended" at least in most of the first world countries. People responsible for them selves? Of course! we have agency and affirm that we are responsible for our own actions and receive just praise and blame for the way we live our lives. And now the clincher:But what’s next?For many, mere atheism (the absence of belief in gods and the supernatural) or agnosticism (the view that such questions cannot be answered) aren’t enough.Atheism and agnosticism are silent on larger questions of values and meaning. If Meaning in life is not ordained from on high, what small-m meanings can we work out among ourselves? If eternal life is an illusion, how can we make the most of our only lives? As social beings sharing a godless world, how should we coexist?For the questions that remain unanswered after we’ve cleared our minds of gods and souls and spirits, many atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and freethinkers turn to secular humanism. Even without God, humans are hungry for meaning in their lives. What meaning can humans work out for themselves? Our human God has given us those ideas which make our life "sweet" (Alma 32) and we can affirm those truths for ourselves by living the principles that Humanity has found essential to progression. And those are the principles of the gospel. Yes we are social beings, but not Godless. The very yearnings we have for eternal life and meaning PROVE that it is NOT an illusion. What survival value in a godless world of Darwinian evolution does a yearning for meaning have? The very existence of this secular humanism is based on our human yearning for meaning- and yet they deny the source of that yearning while affirming it at the same time! This is a clear contradiction. We yearn for God and meaning because it is vital to the survival of the human race, for the survival of culture and civilization. We have inside of us the knowledge that people have rights and should be treated as we would want to be treated. Is that evidence that people are "undesigned and unintended"? If that is the case, why do we have such a need to find meaning for our lives? Why are we not randomly killing each other for sport, if we are "undesigned and unintended"? Because we have a conscience - all of us do- which establishes right and wrong action. Did that evolve in us? Possibly, but does that mean that God was not responsible for that process? Of course not. People are turning to secular humanism in droves. How many of those people could we turn toward the humanistic gospel of theistic humanism if they only heard the message in their own terms? I am convinced many many could join us. After all I did! But studying science and showing scientifically that the earth exists for a purpose is not the way, I am convinced. The argument must be based not on some physicist's notion that the earth was designed- it must be based on each individual's need for meaning in life. The argument must be a philosophical one, not one based in science or even transhumanism which is essentially the worship of science. I am waiting to be disabused of that notion but no one has presented a convincing argument as far as I see. Everyone wants to change the world but to change people you have to do it one at a time- you have to change their ways of seeing the world. The kingdom of heaven is within, not out there waiting to be discovered scientifically Edited September 13, 2015 by mfbukowski 2
Robert F. Smith Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) ............................................................. But don't tell anyone. I mean we don't want to peak too early or anything like that. I mean it's only been 185 years that this idea has been around and unnoticed by the church.................................................................. Somehow, I think that Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt fully understood what you are saying, Mark, even if they didn't say it quite your way. The force of their theological views has taken time to mature and to have its full impact on modern Mormonism, with a few detours taken along the way (muddy roads and all). At times, the Divine Plan has seemed to have gotten out of kilter, but (as with the Foundation series by Asimov) all was foreseen and steps taken to assure that there would be eventual success. We and our Jewish brethren have not been left without His Divine Presence (Shekinah), to comfort and console us through the hard times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09KCf_-wby4 . Edited September 13, 2015 by Robert F. Smith 1
carbon dioxide Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 The never changing church is forever changing.What is the point of having prophets and revelation is nothing ever changes? Overall the Church today is pretty much the exact same church I knew 25 years ago.
mfbukowski Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Somehow, I think that Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt fully understood what you are saying, Mark, even if they didn't say it quite your way. The force of their theological views has taken time to mature and to have its full impact on modern Mormonism, with a few detours taken along the way (muddy roads and all). At times, the Divine Plan has seemed to have gotten out of kilter, but (as with the Foundation series by Asimov) all was foreseen and steps taken to assure that there would be eventual success. We and our Jewish brethren have not been left without His Divine Presence (Shekinah), to comfort and console us through the hard times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09KCf_-wby4 .Agree all around, and I am positive you are right about Joseph and Orson Pratt. Their world was not ready yet for those ideas which ultimately came from Kant across the world and only a few years earlier. But Kant would lay the groundwork for James and Husserl, Wittgenstein and the boys.I think it was providence at work to get us where we are.
Calm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Just in time for the technology to make these kinds of discussions available.
Bernard Gui Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Somehow, I think that Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt fully understood what you are saying, Mark, even if they didn't say it quite your way. The force of their theological views has taken time to mature and to have its full impact on modern Mormonism, with a few detours taken along the way (muddy roads and all). At times, the Divine Plan has seemed to have gotten out of kilter, but (as with the Foundation series by Asimov) all was foreseen and steps taken to assure that there would be eventual success. We and our Jewish brethren have not been left without His Divine Presence (Shekinah), to comfort and console us through the hard times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09KCf_-wby4 .Stephen Foster's best song. The Mormon "folk-singing" group The Three D's sang this back in the 60s, but changed the words...It's the song, the sigh, of the Mormons....hard times, hard times, come again no more... I wish I could find a recording. They did it very well. Edited September 13, 2015 by Bernard Gui
Calm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Is it called Mormon Hard Times. If so it is on their heritage album, 12th song 99 cents at I tunes.Clip available herehttps://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/172668009-the-three-d Edited September 13, 2015 by Calm
Avatar4321 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Posted September 13, 2015 What can we do to further draw from the gospel well?Im not a philosopher. I'm a lawyer. I'd argue not a terribly effective one. What can I do?
mfbukowski Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Just in time for the technology to make these kinds of discussions available.I think you are right. Gutenberg was step 1, now we no longer need even a publisher
Avatar4321 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Posted September 13, 2015 You got it backwards, Erik. This is the golden age of Mormonism. You can't see the forest for the trees. True enough, vain and narcissitic people love to laugh at us knowingly, and "The Book of Mormon" Broadway musical is in no sense praising us. Yet we have come into our own as a worldwide religion with something profound to offer all mankind. We have taken the lemons brazenly handed to us and are busy making lemonade. True intellects are not laughing at us any longer. They have instead become our friends and allies. Haven't you noticed?I don't know that we have fully entered our golden age. But if we haven't it will be soon
Ahab Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 What is the point of having prophets and revelation is nothing ever changes? Overall the Church today is pretty much the exact same church I knew 25 years ago.The Church is the people in it, and the people have changed in those 25 years. We have some new ones in it now who were not in it before then and some that were in it have either died or just left the Church. And some of the thoughts of the people in it have changed some in those 25 years. Time and life just has a way of doing that sometimes.The point of having prophets, who are also members of the Church, is to have people who know what our Lord has said and wants us to do. If we didn't have any or any more, and we couldn't be prophets ourselves either, we would just be a bunch of people like the rest of the world who just don't know what our Lord still wants for and from us and we would then need our Lord to tell us either personally or through some more of his prophets.
Ahab Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I don't know that we have fully entered our golden age. But if we haven't it will be soonSame is true for the golden age of Communications.If we haven't entered the golden age of Communications yet we will be in it soon.
Teancum Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 You got it backwards, Erik. This is the golden age of Mormonism. You can't see the forest for the trees. True enough, vain and narcissitic people love to laugh at us knowingly, and "The Book of Mormon" Broadway musical is in no sense praising us. Yet we have come into our own as a worldwide religion with something profound to offer all mankind. We have taken the lemons brazenly handed to us and are busy making lemonade. True intellects are not laughing at us any longer. They have instead become our friends and allies. Haven't you noticed? Robert. If what you say is true why does it not reflect as such? The Church has anemic growth. It barley kept up with the population growth in the USA the past 25 years. It is declining in other industrialized nations. Yes in third world countries it is growing some. But retention over all is just awful. We love to tout that we are a 15 million member church (which over all is pretty small and has a small impact on the world over all) but activity rate is 35% or so at best! So we have 5-6 million active members. Golden Age? Really? Further if the Church has more growth in poor nations and less in wealthy nations it may become unsustainable from financial stand point. Further you and mfbukowski Talk about the appeal of the theology in a humanistic and secular world. And guess what. I agree. There is much that is compelling in the depth of Mormon Theology. I think Mark referred to Pratt and Hyde. They were great! But where is that today in the Church? This thread is about a more intelligent discipleship. And that is great. But I don't see it from the top. GC sessions are banal and boring and focus on the elementary gospel issues over and over. Same in the wards. The lesson manuals are dumbed down. Sitting in church 3 hours every Sunday at least for me is torture. The past few sacrament meetings are typical.... "How to bear a testimony and what it should include" "Reverence in sacrament meeting" "Standards and obedience" Kids speaking in sacrament and giving talks they ought not to give including a family speaking with the mom whispering in the ear of her four or five year old something about following the prophet. If Mormonism is rich and full of though provoking ideas and doctrine and if this is the golden age it sure is missing in what comes from the top as well as what happens in the wards and stakes that I am involved with at least.
Five Solas Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Robert. If what you say is true why does it not reflect as such? The Church has anemic growth. It barley kept up with the population growth in the USA the past 25 years. It is declining in other industrialized nations. Yes in third world countries it is growing some. But retention over all is just awful. We love to tout that we are a 15 million member church (which over all is pretty small and has a small impact on the world over all) but activity rate is 35% or so at best! So we have 5-6 million active members. Golden Age? Really? Further if the Church has more growth in poor nations and less in wealthy nations it may become unsustainable from financial stand point. Further you and mfbukowski Talk about the appeal of the theology in a humanistic and secular world. And guess what. I agree. There is much that is compelling in the depth of Mormon Theology. I think Mark referred to Pratt and Hyde. They were great! But where is that today in the Church? This thread is about a more intelligent discipleship. And that is great. But I don't see it from the top. GC sessions are banal and boring and focus on the elementary gospel issues over and over. Same in the wards. The lesson manuals are dumbed down. Sitting in church 3 hours every Sunday at least for me is torture. The past few sacrament meetings are typical.... "How to bear a testimony and what it should include" "Reverence in sacrament meeting" "Standards and obedience" Kids speaking in sacrament and giving talks they ought not to give including a family speaking with the mom whispering in the ear of her four or five year old something about following the prophet. If Mormonism is rich and full of though provoking ideas and doctrine and if this is the golden age it sure is missing in what comes from the top as well as what happens in the wards and stakes that I am involved with at least.Exactly. If the LDS Church is uniquely positioned to capitalize on postmodernism, as mfbukowski imagines, shouldn't we be seeing some evidence for it in our cultural centers, in our leading cities? Instead, we're seeing the opposite. For example, in the City of Seattle where I live there are fewer LDS wards now there were 15 years ago (University 4th is gone as is the International Ward). Yet during that same period, the city's population has grown nearly 50%--and Seattle's hardly a backwater of contemporary art & ideas. Some on this thread have probably even heard of it...;0) And if this is some "golden age" for Mormonism (or about to be) why is Dr. Peterson so evidently nostalgic for culture when he was growing up in the 1950's & 60's, back when Mormons were "quintessentially American" as he wrote? His argument might be better served if he didn't indulge that impulse. So with all that said, you'll please understand & forgive my skepticism that the way for the LDS Church to prosper in the 21st century is to double-down on its founders' writings from the 19th. --Erik PS. And speaking of golden ages and nostalgia, I'll indulge one myself, "drawing deeply" from my New Wave/1980's well...
Teancum Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/toward-ever-more-intelligent-discipleship/Read this essay by Dr. P and thought it would be good to share.Any thoughts? I just read the essay. It is a good essay. It rings of things seemingly used to discuss in Church in the 70s and even early 80s. But these topics have at least where I attend, all but disappeared. We are told to stick to the manuals for SS and Priesthood and RS meetings. So much to the richness Dr. Peterson discusses are long absent from the manuals. Where are such topics in the Ensign? Where are the Institute classes that cover such topics? When was the last general conference talk that someone delved into the doctrines Dr. Peterson refers to? How is this more intelligent discipleship supposed to come about when we don't talk, teach or write much about them where the main stream members will have access to them?
pogi Posted September 14, 2015 Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) The church's role is to provide us a simple, safe, and enduring framework that individual members can launch from to delve into the richness of the gospel. It is the personal time, meditation, and heart felt application of the simple yet profound principles taught in Sunday school that generates the richness and depth that so many hunger for. Unfortunately, many people give no real thought, no fasting, no meditation and prayer that is required to gain an appreciation for just how profound and how eternally spiritually sustaining the basic principles of the gospel are. The living waters are right before us, but no one is going to dip the ladle for you. I fear that people have forgotten what it means to be a disciple, which is derived from the word "discipline". We often expect instant spiritual gratification with no application of discipline or discipleship to the principles taught. It is in becoming true disciples that new spiritual worlds are opened up to us. We have to actually plant the seeds, we can't expect the fruit to be fed to us by another. I view the culture of convenience and instant gratification as one of the greatest threats to Mormonism which requires true discipleship, and all that entails, to reach the depths of what Mormonism has to offer. If you want to just skim the top, with a passive approach, you will not be gratified in Mormonism, because you are right, there is not much there without application. Mormonism is like a mustard seed... Edited September 14, 2015 by pogi 4
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