Worthiness Interviews: Is There A Better Way?

[KevinG]

If anyone has an alternative to the Bishop and Stake President for confessing sins and professing faith as a faithful Latter-day Saint, as part of the process of determining worthiness to enter the temple, then by all means suggest it.  

 

But don't be surprised if others notice flaws in your plan.  Like no authority to judge in Israel, no covenant to keep confessions confidential, no authority to authorize a recommend, no guarantee of gifts of the Spirit that Bishops have, etc.

[KevinG]

Great story. I'm glad your friend felt like he had improved. I think it great that the bishop is there for people. I'm simply suggesting it may not be for everyone. I can imagine a scenario, much like you and your friend's, wherein the friend confessed to another and they both moved on happily after and because of the confession. Not sure it's helpful to consider anecdotal experiences to be universally applicable, in each case.

 

Yes people can be happy and content not being Mormons.  That isn't up for question.  But it is off topic.

[stemelbow]

Yes people can be happy and content not being Mormons.  That isn't up for question.  But it is off topic.

I'm merely rebutting the claim that one is freest and happiest by confessing to a bishop. No one really knows that. It's just a guess.

[KevinG]

I'm merely rebutting the claim that one is freest and happiest by confessing to a bishop. No one really knows that. It's just a guess.

 

I'm not sure anyone made that claim.

 

If you are looking for absolution, or psychological counselling then an LDS Bishop is not necessary.  I agree.

 

However that is not the purpose of the Bishop's Temple Recommend Interview, which was the topic of this thread.

[stemelbow]

If anyone has an alternative to the Bishop and Stake President for confessing sins and professing faith as a faithful Latter-day Saint, as part of the process of determining worthiness to enter the temple, then by all means suggest it.  

 

But don't be surprised if others notice flaws in your plan.  Like no authority to judge in Israel, no covenant to keep confessions confidential, no authority to authorize a recommend, no guarantee of gifts of the Spirit that Bishops have, etc.

This got away from me. I was only trying to suggest that anyone at anytime can be freed from their sin by confessing to others, whether a bishop or not. That's why I chimed in on this point.

My issues with the interview have been mentioned already. you'll find, I'm not really thinking they are useless.

[The Nehor]

Confession is scriptural. It was not that long ago that when someone offended many by winning that they were asked or even required to confess the sin before the whole church in a sacrament meeting,

[stemelbow]

I'm not sure anyone made that claim.

 

If you are looking for absolution, or psychological counselling then an LDS Bishop is not necessary.  I agree.

 

However that is not the purpose of the Bishop's Temple Recommend Interview, which was the topic of this thread.

Well then chalk it up to misunderstanding. I didn't understand your initial response to me when you said,

"So much the better when it is with someone who is called and authorized to help us with our condition once we have confessed.

Friends and Family don't have the same calling or inspiration that the Bishop is privy too. Even the best of friends and family are not called to take confession in the sense that the Bishop is.

This is the reason I refer my children to the Bishop even if they have had a heart to heart with me about a transgression they are struggling with. "

Sounds to me like you are saying the feeling of being freed from sin is better for those who confess to a bishop. I'm not sure that's the case--not sure what you mean with "so much the better..."

[KevinG]

This got away from me. I was only trying to suggest that anyone at anytime can be freed from their sin by confessing to others, whether a bishop or not. That's why I chimed in on this point.

My issues with the interview have been mentioned already. you'll find, I'm not really thinking they are useless.

 

Even the Bishop cannot free you from sin.  That is up to the Lord.

 

There are however some conditions that must be met.

 

If someone has been offended (harmed) by sin, the confession must be made to them.  Restitution must be attempted.  In some cases church discipline must be carried out in order to allow the sinner to come back to full fellowship or repent fully.  This is the job of the Bishop to determine.

 

In my opinion seeking to confess sins to those not directly affected by the sin, and those not authorized to take confessions by the church, seeks to avoid the consequence of sin (guilt) while avoiding proper restitution, consequences, and the repentance process.

[stemelbow]

Confession is scriptural. It was not that long ago that when someone offended many by winning that they were asked or even required to confess the sin before the whole church in a sacrament meeting,

Stupid winners should always confess before the congregation.

[Gray]

If anyone has an alternative to the Bishop and Stake President for confessing sins and professing faith as a faithful Latter-day Saint, as part of the process of determining worthiness to enter the temple, then by all means suggest it.  

 

But don't be surprised if others notice flaws in your plan.  Like no authority to judge in Israel, no covenant to keep confessions confidential, no authority to authorize a recommend, no guarantee of gifts of the Spirit that Bishops have, etc.

 

I was inactive for a few years as a young man. Some of the procedural details of how things work in the church (steps of repentance, for instance) were a bit fuzzy for me at the time. In any case, I had a change of heart and was converted. I remember asking in prayer for forgiveness and feeling immediately that I was forgiven and loved unconditionally. I mentioned all this later to my bishop when I returned to activity. But my spiritual experience was that I was already forgiven. I didn't need his rubber stamp in order to be forgiven, although I confessed everything to him anyway. He seemed fine with it. I related this experience later to someone else, and they were a little flabbergasted. How could I have felt forgiveness without confessing first? That's not how it's supposed to work!

 

Even within the church, I've found that spiritual experiences have the habit of completely ignoring the limits of what's in the manual of instructions. Maybe God is bigger than our instruction manuals and our procedural rules. 

[KevinG]

I was inactive for a few years as a young man. Some of the procedural details of how things work in the church (steps of repentance, for instance) were a bit fuzzy for me at the time. In any case, I had a change of heart and was converted. I remember asking in prayer for forgiveness and feeling immediately that I was forgiven and loved unconditionally. I mentioned all this later to my bishop when I returned to activity. But my spiritual experience was that I was already forgiven. I didn't need his rubber stamp in order to be forgiven, although I confessed everything to him anyway. He seemed fine with it. I related this experience later to someone else, and they were a little flabbergasted. How could I have felt forgiveness without confessing first? That's not how it's supposed to work!

 

Even within the church, I've found that spiritual experiences have the habit of completely ignoring the limits of what's in the manual of instructions. Maybe God is bigger than our instruction manuals and our procedural rules. 

 

God is much bigger than the manual.  But ignoring His counsel, and the counsel of His anointed is not the way to get closer to Him.

 

I have not had issues reconciling imperfect human procedures and laws, with being able to access great personal revelation.  There are always exceptions to the rules, however if you find yourself always being an exception to the rule, you may be kidding yourself.

[stemelbow]

God is much bigger than the manual.  But ignoring His counsel, and the counsel of His anointed is not the way to get closer to Him.

 

I have not had issues reconciling imperfect human procedures and laws, with being able to access great personal revelation.  There are always exceptions to the rules, however if you find yourself always being an exception to the rule, you may be kidding yourself.

But you also may not be kidding yourself. Maybe in the end the rule is kidding everyone else.

Edited September 9, 2015 by stemelbow

[Gray]

God is much bigger than the manual.  But ignoring His counsel, and the counsel of His anointed is not the way to get closer to Him.

 

I have not had issues reconciling imperfect human procedures and laws, with being able to access great personal revelation.  There are always exceptions to the rules, however if you find yourself always being an exception to the rule, you may be kidding yourself.

 

I don't think God gives council in any literal way. Human beings can experience God in a number of different ways. For some, a particular set of rules might be helpful. For others, those same rules might be a hindrance to a relationship with the Divine. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Gray

[KevinG]

But you also may not be kidding yourself. Maybe in the end the rule is kidding everyone else.

 

Go and follow your crazy inspirations.  I won't object.

[KevinG]

I don't think God gives council in any literal way. Human beings can experience God in a number of different ways. For some, a particular set of rules might be helpful. For others, those same rules might be a hindrance to a relationship with the Divine. 

 

That sounds like a recipe for easy rationalization if taken too far.

 

I'm not sure doing away with Bishop's interviews in the LDS church would benefit more Saints than it would hinder from experiencing closeness to God.

[Gray]

That sounds like a recipe for easy rationalization if taken too far.

 

I'm not sure doing away with Bishop's interviews in the LDS church would benefit more Saints than it would hinder from experiencing closeness to God.

 

Maybe. But I think it's true that no one system is going to work for everyone. 

 

As far as what will work best for the majority of Latter-day Saints, I really don't know. 

[Tacenda]

I commented in that confession to anyone often has the same effect as it can have if one confesses to the Bishop. I don't care if you disagree. I'm happy for you. But that certainly doesn't take the many cases wherein confession to people that are not Bishop's has the same freeing effect as confessing to a Bishop has. I suppose in your mind those who think so are lacking faith or lacking the Spirit, but that's a little too convenient I'd say.

I would say confessing to a Bishop can help, but not necessarily. In some cases it is better to confess to someone that is not your bishop, I'd imagine. God need not be constrained by working with someone's Bishop when there are a plethora of people in each of our lives. If not, then the more than 99% of the people in the world are lacking a real chance to feel free after confessing. That doesn't really make sense, if you ask me.

Atleast confessing to the bishop has a greater chance of not being repeated, since bishops are supposed to adhere to the confidentiality rule.

[Yirgacheffe]

Come to think of it, that is probably when I was told to read Miracle of Forgiveness, I know there were 4 or 5 books he had me read.  And I did read it.  At the time I didn't notice how some of it could hurt me or others, it's definitely how I was conditioned to believe, also with the levels of sin.  Again how I was taught to think.  How does the bishop handle that, what if someone thought stealing a pencil from work or a paper clip needed to be confessed?  Just how do we measure sin?  I'm all ears for suggestions on this.  But do know the church needs to draw some lines don't they?  But good question and comments.  It made me wonder about Evangelical churches, I guess their members just take it to the Lord.  Or Protestant and Methodists?  I know Catholics go to their Priests.  So interesting, how each church handles confession with their members. 

From what I understand Catholics go to their priests, the priests don't call them in and question them.

[sunstoned]

But you also may not be kidding yourself. Maybe in the end the rule is kidding everyone else.

Good point!

[Kenngo1969]

When I was a young adult, I had a friend that was always confessing things to me that he probably should have confessed to his bishop instead.  It seemed to help him feel better for a little while, but didn't seem to help much in the long term.  After a while, it started to become burdensome to me as well.  Things didn't seem to improve until he started talking to the bishop instead.

Funny, that.  But I'm sure all of those with an anti-confession stance will attribute that improvement to mere coincidence.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm merely rebutting the claim that one is freest and happiest by confessing to a bishop. No one really knows that. It's just a guess.

Alrighty, then.  I'll simply ignore the countless accounts I've heard from people who entered bishops offices with crushing burdens and left those offices feeling infinitely lighter in favor of some anonymous Internet poster who assures me that these people don't "really know[ ]" what they're talking about. UNSURE:

[stemelbow]

Alrighty, then.  I'll simply ignore the countless accounts I've heard from people who entered bishops offices with crushing burdens and left those offices feeling infinitely lighter in favor of some anonymous Internet poster who assures me that these people don't "really know[ ]" what they're talking about. UNSURE:

Why discount that? It seems to say anyone who confesses to a bishop is infinitely lighter than someone who feels relieved after confessing to another is discounting another. I am not. I accept people's accounts when they feel infinitely lighter after confessing to a bishop.

[stemelbow]

Atleast confessing to the bishop has a greater chance of not being repeated, since bishops are supposed to adhere to the confidentiality rule.

well I'm not so sure. With some bishop's sure. A few other's? Guaranteed someone else will hear about it, sadly.

[stemelbow]

Go and follow your crazy inspirations.  I won't object.

Seriously? you won't? Great. Oh wait...you think I'm crazy?

[bsjkki]

I don't think you have to discount one persons experience to validate your own.  Some people may feel lighter and like a burden is lifted.  That is how most of the experiences or stories are told in the manual and in talks.  Personally, I know of 2 instances that these confessions with two different Bishops resulted with feelings of hopelessness, despair and suicidal thoughts.  Their burdens were not lightened but added to.  One experience led to a suicide attempt and inactivity and the other, through the help of his friends, was able to stay active and survive a disciplinary council.  Is the repentence process supposed to be survival of the fittest?  I think a lot depends if the Bishop feels the need to punish the sinner and that it is his job to chastise.   Bishops have a heavy burden because they must know the heart of the person sitting in their office and what works for one person could destroy another.  I have five children and my methods of correction are much different for each one.  How can a Bishop know who needs a stern talking to and who will crumble because they already feel completely worthless and need to be shown love and that it is going to be okay?  In confessional, the Bishop is a stand-in for the Savior and youth especially may feel, how their Bishop thinks is how the Savior thinks.  It's dangerous territory and an almost an impossible task for very imperfect humans.  For all the scholars on this board (which I am not, just a very average mom) what is the history of our current repentance and confessional process? In all of my pondering on the topic, I have not come up with an alternative except Bishops need more mental health training.  As a mother, I refuse to have my daughters sit with a Bishop I do not trust or be in a room alone with a counselor who gives me the creeps.  It is a case by case determination.