Worthiness Interviews: Is There A Better Way?

[Kenngo1969]

If the policy were ever to be changed to what you suggest it would be to protect the bishop, not the children.

 

The children would be the ones to suffer not being able to experience the full benefit of being to confidentially confess their sins to their bishops.

 

 

...or allow children to seek confidential help from church authorities when others sin against them.

 

 

Show me the stats that show [fewer] people are being abused because of these policies. ...

 

 

Yep.  I'm not a betting man, but in this case I say, play the percentages.  Mandating that a third party be in the room largely is a solution in search of a problem: which is more likely, that an ecclesiastical authority will abuse children if no third party is present, or that a would-be penitent will be less likely to speak freely because of the third party's presence?  Not to mention (at least, I don't think anybody has brought it up yet) what about this scenario?  What if a juvenile were to confess to a bishop that s/he abused someone else?  A third party was present, ergo (at least potentially, and at least in the U.S.), no privilege to confidentiality attached, ergo, a bishop could be called to the stand to testify as to what the confessing juvenile told him.

[Danzo]

I couldn’t disagree more with both of these views.  I think your culture has conditioned you to believe there is always inherent value in confessing of sins to an ecclesiastical leader.  I’m willing to allow for it helping in some cases, but I also think there are many other cases where this can be harmful.

 

I have personal experience with it.  I have felt the sins being lifted off of my shoulders after confession. It was real! not some sort of cultural conditioning.,  It has nothing to do with culture.

 

I have hear other people, with many different cultures and upbringings also describe it. 

 

 

I consider it a miracle as real as anything reported in the scriptures.

 

How Dare you write us off with "cultural conditioning."!

[hope_for_things]

...and that something you would replace the current system with would be?  

 

Just brainstorming, but why not have an online form that talks about some important things to consider to prepare for the temple, and then asks the person to self reflect and consider the importance of their covenants.  We are on a 2 year schedule now for a formal interview.  Maybe go to a lifetime schedule, go through for the first time have the prep class and formal interview, and then just re-up online for future recommends.  Those are some thoughts.  

[KevinG]

I'm glad its worked for you and for many others.

 

Not always.   I've had Bishops that couldn't counsel their way out of a paper bag.  But I was still blessed for considering their counsel (sometimes having to work hard to divine inspired counsel from hasty advise) and following it to the best of my ability.

 

But I'm arguing the system isn't broken to the point of having to chuck it out.

 

You are.  So what would you replace it with that would derive the same benefits, but not have the potential abuses you fear?

[KevinG]

I have personal experience with it.  I have felt the sins being lifted off of my shoulders after confession. It was real! not some sort of cultural conditioning.,  It has nothing to do with culture.

 

I have hear other people, with many different cultures and upbringings also describe it. 

 

 

I consider it a miracle as real as anything reported in the scriptures.

 

How Dare you write us off with "cultural conditioning."!

 

I suspect it was reflex from reading too many anti (excuse me) critical sources.  Those who find fault often invoke the Morg     when critiquing the church and our puzzling respect of authority.  Cultural conditioning is a PC way of saying we're sheep.

[hope_for_things]

I have personal experience with it.  I have felt the sins being lifted off of my shoulders after confession. It was real! not some sort of cultural conditioning.,  It has nothing to do with culture.

 

I have hear other people, with many different cultures and upbringings also describe it. 

 

 

I consider it a miracle as real as anything reported in the scriptures.

 

How Dare you write us off with "cultural conditioning."!

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend with that term cultural conditioning.  I was trying to articulate what's cultural over what's gospel doctrine, but those lines are gray at times and its hard to distinguish between the two.  In hindsight it was not appropriate.  Your experiences in matters of faith as everyone's are entitled to respect, and I can see how what I said may have invalidated your experience.  Sorry about that.

 

My experiences have been different, but that doesn't make mine better than yours, just different.  Again, I apologize.  

[KevinG]

Just brainstorming, but why not have an online form that talks about some important things to consider to prepare for the temple, and then asks the person to self reflect and consider the importance of their covenants.  We are on a 2 year schedule now for a formal interview.  Maybe go to a lifetime schedule, go through for the first time have the prep class and formal interview, and then just re-up online for future recommends.  Those are some thoughts.  

 

We already do Temple Prep.  You can request the class any time before, during, and after you have received a recommend.

 

We already ask people to reflect on their own worthiness.  I cannot tell you how many times the Bishop and Stake President have told me "the most important signature on the recommend is yours".

 

Re-up on line has none of the benefit of counselling with someone else.  In particular someone who is called and inspired to counsel us through the repentance process.  This is the primary reason I don't see changing the current interview process as being workable.  Perhaps a window on the office door, but even then privacy is a concern.

Edited September 9, 2015 by KevinG

[stemelbow]

I have personal experience with it.  I have felt the sins being lifted off of my shoulders after confession. It was real! not some sort of cultural conditioning.,  It has nothing to do with culture.

 

I have hear other people, with many different cultures and upbringings also describe it. 

 

 

I consider it a miracle as real as anything reported in the scriptures.

 

How Dare you write us off with "cultural conditioning."!

I've found confessing to friends, family, and even those whom you've wronged works the same. It's freeing to confess.

[thesometimesaint]

Not sure how this became about my personal standing with the church.  Yikes.  I was just wondering why you said my actions spoke louder than my words, when all you have access to through this message board is my words.  

 

I very serious doubt my parents had you personally in mind when they told me those things. Nor do I have you personally in mind when I say such things.

[hope_for_things]

We already do Temple Prep.  You can request the class any time before, during, and after you have received a recommend.

 

We already ask people to reflect on their own worthiness.  I cannot tell you how many times the Bishop and Stake President have told me "the most important signature on the recommend is yours".

 

Re-up on line has none of the benefit of counselling with someone else.  In particular someone who is called and inspired to counsel us through the repentance process.  This is the primary reason I don't see changing the current interview process as being workable.  Perhaps a window on the office door, but even then privacy is a concern.

 

Your points seem to support my case.  Go to the bishop if you feel the urge to need counseling.  Personally, I'll go to counselors and professionals way more often than the bishop for counseling, but I will still see my bishop in matters of faith.  I've talked with him recently in fact on faith issues.  Overall, leave it to the member's discretion.  No interview for renewals, only interview as needed and initiated by the member.  

[hope_for_things]

I very serious doubt my parents had you personally in mind when they told me those things. Nor do I have you personally in mind when I say such things.

 

If you weren't talking about my personal actions speaking louder than my words when you shared those quotes, who's actions were you talking about?  

[KevinG]

I've found confessing to friends, family, and even those whom you've wronged works the same. It's freeing to confess.

 

So much the better when it is with someone who is called and authorized to help us with our condition once we have confessed.

 

Friends and Family don't have the same calling or inspiration that the Bishop is privy too.  Even the best of friends and family are not called to take confession in the sense that the Bishop is.

 

This is the reason I refer my children to the Bishop even if they have had a heart to heart with me about a transgression they are struggling with.  

[KevinG]

Your points seem to support my case.  Go to the bishop if you feel the urge to need counseling.  Personally, I'll go to counselors and professionals way more often than the bishop for counseling, but I will still see my bishop in matters of faith.  I've talked with him recently in fact on faith issues.  Overall, leave it to the member's discretion.  No interview for renewals, only interview as needed and initiated by the member.  

 

We keep going around the same points over and over.  I'm starting to think it is a comprehension problem or you aren't reading.

 

Counsels in the church are different than counselling.

 

The issues the Bishop can help with are spiritual or have to do with preparing ourselves for the Temple, or callings.  When something falls outside of this scope the Bishop would be the first to refer us to a professional.  

 

Do not go to the Bishop with a broken arm.  Do not go to the Bishop to cure a drug addiction.

 

Do go to the Bishop when seeking to repent of sins.  Do go to the Bishop when struggling with your faith.  Do go to the Bishop for help reviewing your worthiness to enter the temple and to receive counsel from a servant of the Lord.

[stemelbow]

So much the better when it is with someone who is called and authorized to help us with our condition once we have confessed.

Meh...subjective determination I guess.

 

Friends and Family don't have the same calling or inspiration that the Bishop is privy too.  Even the best of friends and family are not called to take confession in the sense that the Bishop is.

 

This is the reason I refer my children to the Bishop even if they have had a heart to heart with me about a transgression they are struggling with.

Well I say good. I guess mileage varies for us all. I personally don't see the burdens lifted from me any different than from those who aren't LDS for instance. I'm wondering how much of this is really just us.

[KevinG]

Meh...subjective determination I guess.

 

Well I say good. I guess mileage varies for us all. I personally don't see the burdens lifted from me any different than from those who aren't LDS for instance. I'm wondering how much of this is really just us.

 

Faith plays a big part in the process.  

 

If you don't believe that Bishop's are called, and have discernment, then I can see why any confession will do for you.  My subjective determination gained through my experience and faith says otherwise.

 

But this thread is about what the church should do (policy, practice) about worthiness interviews.  If someone does not have faith in the inspiration of leadership of the church (General and local) then I don't see why their opinion about how the church should be run would be considered very heavily.

[hope_for_things]

We keep going around the same points over and over.  I'm starting to think it is a comprehension problem or you aren't reading.

 

Counsels in the church are different than counselling.

 

The issues the Bishop can help with are spiritual or have to do with preparing ourselves for the Temple, or callings.  When something falls outside of this scope the Bishop would be the first to refer us to a professional.  

 

Do not go to the Bishop with a broken arm.  Do not go to the Bishop to cure a drug addiction.

 

Do go to the Bishop when seeking to repent of sins.  Do go to the Bishop when struggling with your faith.  Do go to the Bishop for help reviewing your worthiness to enter the temple and to receive counsel from a servant of the Lord.

 

I think we define seeking to repent of sins differently and perhaps worthiness as well.  So we likely disagree on when to go see a bishop on those two items.  

[stemelbow]

Faith plays a big part in the process.  

 

If you don't believe that Bishop's are called, and have discernment, then I can see why any confession will do for you.  My subjective determination gained through my experience and faith says otherwise.

 

But this thread is about what the church should do (policy, practice) about worthiness interviews.  If someone does not have faith in the inspiration of leadership of the church (General and local) then I don't see why their opinion about how the church should be run would be considered very heavily.

I commented in that confession to anyone often has the same effect as it can have if one confesses to the Bishop. I don't care if you disagree. I'm happy for you. But that certainly doesn't take the many cases wherein confession to people that are not Bishop's has the same freeing effect as confessing to a Bishop has. I suppose in your mind those who think so are lacking faith or lacking the Spirit, but that's a little too convenient I'd say.

I would say confessing to a Bishop can help, but not necessarily. In some cases it is better to confess to someone that is not your bishop, I'd imagine. God need not be constrained by working with someone's Bishop when there are a plethora of people in each of our lives. If not, then the more than 99% of the people in the world are lacking a real chance to feel free after confessing. That doesn't really make sense, if you ask me.

[Danzo]

I've found confessing to friends, family, and even those whom you've wronged works the same. It's freeing to confess.

 

 

Confessing to those whom you have wronged is important, I don't feel confessing to friends and family that beneficial. If it doesn't affect them, they don't need to know.

 

When confessing to a bishop, one is  confessing to Christ (the bishop stands in his place).

 

Doesn't really matter if the bishop, then gives one good or bad counsel.   I don't go to see him because of his ability to give good advice.

 

I go to him as a manifestation of my faith in Christ.

 

It is from Christ that I expect any benefit, not the bishop.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Danzo

[KevinG]

I think we define seeking to repent of sins differently and perhaps worthiness as well.  So we likely disagree on when to go see a bishop on those two items.  

 

We have already established that you and I disagree on the purpose and efficacy of confession to a Bishop.  This is a good guide to what the LDS Church teaches:

 

Confession

The scriptures use confession in at least two ways. One is to confess that Jesus is the Christ; that is, a confession or profession of faith; see, for example, Matt. 10:32; 16:16;John 6:68–69; 12:42; Rom. 10:9; Philip. 2:11; 1 Tim. 6:12; Heb. 4:14; 1 Jn. 4:2. A second usage of confession is confession of sin. It is a duty of all persons to confess all their sins to the Lord and, when necessary, to the person or persons sinned against. Sins against the public must be publicly confessed (D&C 42:88–93). Other items may be confessed to a church official (bishop), or in many cases to the Lord alone. Confession to a church official (in most cases the bishop) is necessary whenever one’s transgression is of a nature for which the Church might impose loss of membership or other disciplinary action. The bishop cannot and does not forgive sin, but he may judge the matter and waive the penalty that the Church might otherwise impose against the person. The repentant sinner must still make confession and obtain forgiveness of the Lord.

Confession is a condition of forgiveness. The Lord has said that true repentance is always accompanied by confession (D&C 58:43; 64:7). Confession was clearly a requirement of forgiveness under the law of Moses (Lev. 5:5; 26:40; Num. 5:7; Josh. 7:19; Ezra 10:11). John the Baptist baptized those who repented and confessed their sins (Matt. 3:5–6).

When we go to a Temple Recomend interview we use both types of confession.  An affirmation of our faith in Christ, and if necessary a confession of sins that we need to repent of.  An earthly counselor or confidant cannot provide all of these services.

[KevinG]

I commented in that confession to anyone often has the same effect as it can have if one confesses to the Bishop. I don't care if you disagree. I'm happy for you. But that certainly doesn't take the many cases wherein confession to people that are not Bishop's has the same freeing effect as confessing to a Bishop has. I suppose in your mind those who think so are lacking faith or lacking the Spirit, but that's a little too convenient I'd say.

I would say confessing to a Bishop can help, but not necessarily. In some cases it is better to confess to someone that is not your bishop, I'd imagine. God need not be constrained by working with someone's Bishop when there are a plethora of people in each of our lives. If not, then the more than 99% of the people in the world are lacking a real chance to feel free after confessing. That doesn't really make sense, if you ask me.

 

Technically we confess to God, and any person we have offended first.  This does not preclude confessing to the Bishop "whenever one’s transgression is of a nature for which the Church might impose loss of membership or other disciplinary action."  I have also found that seeking the Bishop's counsel prior to a sin becoming that serious is sometimes helpful, although we are also counselled not to go with trivial or repeated issues.

 

Arguing that we should change the practices of the church because they aren't reaching enough people falls flat to my ears.  We are working to spread the Gospel to the living and dead, not water it down so it is easier to obey even if we don't know it exists.

[KevinG]

After much dancing around the subject of "Is there a better way to engage in worthiness issues?"  We are still left with this question.

 

Is there a better way to interview or help members self-evaluate worthiness that still provides the following benefits that we now have:

-Opportunity to receive counsel and help privately

-Opportunity to confess sins confidentially

-Opportunity to confess or affirm faith in God

-Opportunity to receive spiritual counsel from one called of God

[stemelbow]

Technically we confess to God, and any person we have offended first.  This does not preclude confessing to the Bishop "whenever one’s transgression is of a nature for which the Church might impose loss of membership or other disciplinary action."  I have also found that seeking the Bishop's counsel prior to a sin becoming that serious is sometimes helpful, although we are also counselled not to go with trivial or repeated issues.

I find this type fo thinking a symptom of far too much Pharisee and not enough individual concern. Honestly. I don't know that God needs us to follow a proscribed list of people to go to . We can find great comfort and release by confessing--whether to a bishop or not. many have felt the same type of freedom by confessing to a non bishop. One can say, "well that confessor wasn't a freed as I was when I confessed to a bishop". But one simply can't know that. It's just a guess. A guess is not faith, either. Confused why that was invoked.

 

Arguing that we should change the practices of the church because they aren't reaching enough people falls flat to my ears.  We are working to spread the Gospel to the living and dead, not water it down so it is easier to obey even if we don't know it exists.

Working while spinning wheels is silly if we can make changes and work that brings great progress. I realize suggesting change is needed falls flat on many members ears ,but it'll continue to come until change comes. That's just how it works with the Church. Things move at an increasingly slow pace--the slowness seems to get worse in time because we add more and more hands into the pot.

[stemelbow]

After much dancing around the subject of "Is there a better way to engage in worthiness issues?"  We are still left with this question.

 

Is there a better way to interview or help members self-evaluate worthiness that still provides the following benefits that we now have:

-Opportunity to receive counsel and help privately

-Opportunity to confess sins confidentially

-Opportunity to confess or affirm faith in God

-Opportunity to receive spiritual counsel from one called of God

I'm confused why any of these are only possible through the interview process. I'm not trying to be difficult. But I think many in the world, outside the Church and in, can find plenty of opportunity to receive counsel and help privately, confess sins, confidentially, confess and affirm faith in God, and receive spiritual counsel from one called of God. No need for private one on one interviews for that.

[Danzo]

I find this type fo thinking a symptom of far too much Pharisee and not enough individual concern. Honestly. I don't know that God needs us to follow a proscribed list of people to go to . We can find great comfort and release by confessing--whether to a bishop or not. many have felt the same type of freedom by confessing to a non bishop. One can say, "well that confessor wasn't a freed as I was when I confessed to a bishop". But one simply can't know that. It's just a guess. A guess is not faith, either. Confused why that was invoked.

 

Working while spinning wheels is silly if we can make changes and work that brings great progress. I realize suggesting change is needed falls flat on many members ears ,but it'll continue to come until change comes. That's just how it works with the Church. Things move at an increasingly slow pace--the slowness seems to get worse in time because we add more and more hands into the pot.

When I was a young adult, I had a friend that was always confessing things to me that he probably should have confessed to his bishop instead.  It seemed to help him feel better for a little while, but didn't seem to help much in the long term.  After a while, it started to become burdensome to me as well.  Things didn't seem to improve until he started talking to the bishop instead.

[stemelbow]

When I was a young adult, I had a friend that was always confessing things to me that he probably should have confessed to his bishop instead.  It seemed to help him feel better for a little while, but didn't seem to help much in the long term.  After a while, it started to become burdensome to me as well.  Things didn't seem to improve until he started talking to the bishop instead.

Great story. I'm glad your friend felt like he had improved. I think it great that the bishop is there for people. I'm simply suggesting it may not be for everyone. I can imagine a scenario, much like you and your friend's, wherein the friend confessed to another and they both moved on happily after and because of the confession. Not sure it's helpful to consider anecdotal experiences to be universally applicable, in each case.