Worthiness Interviews: Is There A Better Way?

[hope_for_things]

Abuse is much more likely to occur in the home than at church. Do you want to create a law which will require no parent is allowed to be with a child without another adult present?

I wonder if the number of times a child has been able to appeal to a bishop for help with abuse at home because a parent isn't present and only the bishop is there so the child feels less threatened is more or less than the times a child has been abused in an interview.

 

Lots of what if speculation here.  I don't like absolutes, there are always exceptions.  Just because it doesn’t always work a certain way, doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to implement a policy that can help the general population on a whole.  Should we change the scouting policy and let scouts be with leaders?  Should we go back to single adults in primary class instead of two?  Take away all controls because you can't have a perfect policy?  

[Danzo]

Secondly, what if that Bishop had referred you to read the Miracle of Forgiveness by Kimball.  There are some really negative messages in there that can be hurtful to many people, and I know of bishops who still to this day, recommend that book.  There can be good and bad from these conversations from my experience.  

 

Recommending that book is a negative experience for everyone, at least is wasn't for me.  I don't think you can just make blanket assumptions like that.

[hope_for_things]

As my mom always taught me "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". My dad always taught me "Your actions are yelling so loudly I can't hear a word you say".

 

What actions am I doing that are speaking louder than my words?  Are you watching me on video or something?  

[hope_for_things]

Recommending that book is a negative experience for everyone, at least is wasn't for me.  I don't think you can just make blanket assumptions like that.

 

I said good and bad from that book, didn't say all people have a bad experience with it.  

[Danzo]

Lots of what if speculation here.  I don't like absolutes, there are always exceptions.  Just because it doesn’t always work a certain way, doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to implement a policy that can help the general population on a whole.  Should we change the scouting policy and let scouts be with leaders?  Should we go back to single adults in primary class instead of two?  Take away all controls because you can't have a perfect policy?  

These are for protection of the adults, not for protection of the children.

 

I don't think there ever was someone out there who was thinking,

 

"I'd wish I could abuse the children here, but having another person in the room is stopping me!"

 

Or 

 

" I hope they change the  2 deep policy so I can start abusing children again"

Edited September 9, 2015 by Danzo

[KevinG]

Recommending that book is a negative experience for everyone, at least is wasn't for me.  I don't think you can just make blanket assumptions like that.

 

Ironically some of the counsel in Miracle of Forgiveness is for leaders not to pry into the details of a sin during an interview.

 

This discussion on hypothetical abuses is verging on the very silly.

[hope_for_things]

I think I spotted the issue with church authority right there.

 

How else does a person interpret the gospel message, but through their own personal lens of understanding.   Are you saying you just mirror someone else’s interpretation exactly, rather than have your own views and understanding? 

[KevinG]

What actions am I doing that are speaking louder than my words?  Are you watching me on video or something?  

 

Your reported actions tell a lot about your beliefs.  You have been sharing your preferences and behavior quite freely.  

[KevinG]

How else does a person interpret the gospel message, but through their own personal lens of understanding.   Are you saying you just mirror someone else’s interpretation exactly, rather than have your own views and understanding? 

 

I'm open minded enough to accept feedback and perspective from others.  I just don't swallow rumors whole.

 

O wad some Power the giftie gie us

To see oursels as ithers see us!

It wad frae monie a blunder free us,

An' foolish notion:

What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,

An' ev'n devotion!

Edited September 9, 2015 by KevinG

[Danzo]

Ironically some of the counsel in Miracle of Forgiveness is for leaders not to pry into the details of a sin during an interview.

 

 

That would require people to read the book, instead of reading about the book.

[Tacenda]

Thanks for sharing.  I have had good experiences with my Bishops for the most part as well.  Just two comments.  You seem to rank sins according to their severity, and I don’t doubt that there are more severe sins than others.  I will say that our Mormon culture seems to emphasize this ranking as arbitrary and revealed.  I’m not sure that it is, and I don’t think it is wise to compare and rank sin, I think it can take us away from actual change at times.

 

Secondly, what if that Bishop had referred you to read the Miracle of Forgiveness by Kimball.  There are some really negative messages in there that can be hurtful to many people, and I know of bishops who still to this day, recommend that book.  There can be good and bad from these conversations from my experience.  

Come to think of it, that is probably when I was told to read Miracle of Forgiveness, I know there were 4 or 5 books he had me read.  And I did read it.  At the time I didn't notice how some of it could hurt me or others, it's definitely how I was conditioned to believe, also with the levels of sin.  Again how I was taught to think.  How does the bishop handle that, what if someone thought stealing a pencil from work or a paper clip needed to be confessed?  Just how do we measure sin?  I'm all ears for suggestions on this.  But do know the church needs to draw some lines don't they?  But good question and comments.  It made me wonder about Evangelical churches, I guess their members just take it to the Lord.  Or Protestant and Methodists?  I know Catholics go to their Priests.  So interesting, how each church handles confession with their members. 

[hope_for_things]

These are for protection of the adults, not for protection of the children.

 

I don't think there ever was someone out there who was thinking,

 

"I'd wish I could abuse the children here, but having another person in the room is stopping me!"

 

Or 

 

" I hope they change the  2 deep policy so I can start abusing children again"

 

It's to protect both the children from abuse and the parents and institution from liability.  They put these controls in place to reduce risk of certain behaviors occurring.  And yes, I they do statistically reduce abuse because having 2 people present is proven to reduce the likelihood of abuse occurring.

[Kenngo1969]

We didn't pay anything when DH was unemployed and we went to the temple, but really I think both sides get the not getting money, not needing to pay tithing thing.

What really matters is intent. There is a difference in paying tithing so you can enter the temple and being worthy to enter the temple because you have paid tithing among other things. Paying tithing to enter is like paying admission to a movie or theme park. Paying tithing because you love the Lord and are grateful and then you are blessed to enter the temple is something much more. Someone who only pays it to get inside may not be worthy to enter.

Yep.  There's a big difference between, "[sigh!] Another hoop I gotta jump through," on the one hand, and, "After everything the Lord has given me, this is all He wants in return, yet He's going to bless me even more by giving me blessings associated with the Temple on top of that?  Can't beat it!" on the other.  (See Mosiah 2:22-24).

[Danzo]

Lots of what if speculation here.  I don't like absolutes, there are always exceptions.  Just because it doesn’t always work a certain way, doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to implement a policy that can help the general population on a whole.  Should we change the scouting policy and let scouts be with leaders?  Should we go back to single adults in primary class instead of two?  Take away all controls because you can't have a perfect policy?  

 

If the policy were ever to be changed to what you suggest it would be to protect the bishop, not the children.

 

The children would be the ones to suffer not being able to experience the full benefit of being to confidentially confess their sins to their bishops.

[KevinG]

If the policy were ever to be changed to what you suggest it would be to protect the bishop, not the children.

 

The children would be the ones to suffer not being able to experience the full benefit of being to confidentially confess their sins to their bishops.

 

...or allow children to seek confidential help from church authorities when others sin against them.

[Danzo]

It's to protect both the children from abuse and the parents and institution from liability.  They put these controls in place to reduce risk of certain behaviors occurring.  And yes, I they do statistically reduce abuse because having 2 people present is proven to reduce the likelihood of abuse occurring.

 

Show me the stats that show less people are being abused because of these policies.

 

Incidents of Child abuse should be declining by your reasoning, since all of these institutions have these policies in place.

 

I'll bet that all  you can show is that the abuse doesn't occur in the presence of the other adult.  All you have done is change the time and location of the abuse.

[thesometimesaint]

What actions am I doing that are speaking louder than my words?  Are you watching me on video or something?  

 

Nope, and I have absolutely no desire to do such. That is between you and God, and if it calls into question your admittance to the Temple or standing in the Church between you and the Bishop/Stake President.

[hope_for_things]

...or allow children to seek confidential help from church authorities when others sin against them.

 

If the policy were ever to be changed to what you suggest it would be to protect the bishop, not the children.

 

The children would be the ones to suffer not being able to experience the full benefit of being to confidentially confess their sins to their bishops.

 

I couldn’t disagree more with both of these views.  I think your culture has conditioned you to believe there is always inherent value in confessing of sins to an ecclesiastical leader.  I’m willing to allow for it helping in some cases, but I also think there are many other cases where this can be harmful.

[KevinG]

Once again...

 

Bishops are not left alone with anyone.  It is against church policy.  That they meet in an office with a closed door is true, but only when a counselor or clerk is in the next room and privy to any disruptions or disturbances.

 

Parents can be in meetings with Bishops and youth, but there are circumstances where it would be better for the child if they had privacy.

 

Bishops are already counselled and trained not to pry deeply into the details of sin.

 

Given that- what policy change would prevent any and all abuses from happening, while still providing the benefit of confidential confession and counsels?

[Calm]

 I don't like absolutes,

Says the person who said this:

"I would just suggest doing away with the formal interviews"

[hope_for_things]

Nope, and I have absolutely no desire to do such. That is between you and God, and if it calls into question your admittance to the Temple or standing in the Church between you and the Bishop/Stake President.

Not sure how this became about my personal standing with the church.  Yikes.  I was just wondering why you said my actions spoke louder than my words, when all you have access to through this message board is my words.  

[KevinG]

I couldn’t disagree more with both of these views.  I think your culture has conditioned you to believe there is always inherent value in confessing of sins to an ecclesiastical leader.  I’m willing to allow for it helping in some cases, but I also think there are many other cases where this can be harmful.

 

Oh brother...  you just love the throwaway lines don't  you?

 

As a protestant convert my culture taught me nothing of confession.  My experience in the LDS Church has shown me that when a sin becomes entrenched in my life, confidential  confession and counsel with a man called of God as a Judge in Israel has helped me repent and become whole again.  And even then not always.  We are counseled not to go to the Bishop with every little transgression but to use him when we need assistance, as in a serious sin or a sinful habit that we cannot break ourselves.  (Another teaching touched on in the much maligned Miracle of Forgiveness).

[hope_for_things]

Says the person who said this:

"I would just suggest doing away with the formal interviews"

 

I don't like absolutes.  Making a policy change is akin to having an absolute all the sudden?  I didn't say put a muzzle on bishops so no member can talk to them.  I'm speaking specifically of the worthiness interview for a temple recommend.  I do think doing away with the current interview process would be beneficial.  You could replace it with something different and still have members apply for recommends, sure.  

[KevinG]

  I do think doing away with the current interview process would be beneficial.  You could replace it with something different and still have members apply for recommends, sure.  

 

...and that something you would replace the current system with would be?  

[hope_for_things]

Oh brother...  you just love the throwaway lines don't  you?

 

As a protestant convert my culture taught me nothing of confession.  My experience in the LDS Church has shown me that when a sin becomes entrenched in my life, confidential  confession and counsel with a man called of God as a Judge in Israel has helped me repent and become whole again.  And even then not always.  We are counseled not to go to the Bishop with every little transgression but to use him when we need assistance, as in a serious sin or a sinful habit that we cannot break ourselves.  (Another teaching touched on in the much maligned Miracle of Forgiveness).

 

I'm glad its worked for you and for many others.