Baby Naming - Father Out?

[strappinglad]

The only reason I would seek clarity from the SP is to ascertain if this is a one off or a habitual piece of advice that he gives all couples. If the SP were advising all couples to have 12 children , I think most here would agree that is not right. The advice in this instance is not so intrusive but still I would want to know if there is a pattern. If so, I would seek further instructions.

[Traela]

Some years ago, my mother and I noticed that the stupidest names in the newspaper's Birth column tended to belong to children of single mothers. We came to the conclusion that having both parents' input was necessary as a moderating factor.

[CMZ]

If I were in your shoes, I would do the following:

 

1. I would circle back to the stake president and ask him if he was serious about his counsel.

 

2. I would express whatever concerns you have about his counsel.

 

3. I would specifically ask the stake president if he expects me to follow his counsel, and what his response would be if I should decline to do so (that is, would he deem his counsel something more than mere friendly advice).

 

4. If the stake president responds and says he had been serious, and that he expects me to follow his counsel, I would tell him I would like to take the matter to the area presidency.  I think the area presidency would almost certainly resolve the matter in a satisfactory way.

 

5. I would not say publicly anything disparaging about the stake president.  I think we should respect both the individual and the priesthood position he holds, even if he erred in his counsel in a particular instance. 

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

Well, he absolutely means well but I am not sure how aware he is there that he swung the penduum too far the opposite direction. I kinda thought a righteous stake president would be happy to see that a husband and father wanted to be involved.

Edited August 26, 2015 by CMZ

[CMZ]

Maybe the SP's point, as it were, is that in case of a hung jury on the baby's name, that she has the final word. But it's still his opinion.

 

Yes, that could make sense. He kind of spun it though as, "Father... don't say anything at all on the subject. After everything she's done what right do you have?" But maybe he drove home that night and thought, "Wait, what I meant to say was that in case of a hung jury on the baby's name, that she has the final word."

 

BTW, I don't mind if my fiancee or the stake president read any of this. It might all just be an oddball fluke.

[CMZ]

I would not do any of that. I would just ignore him (if your wife agrees) and let it be.

 

Except that she didn't agree. She saw it as proof that I shouldn't offer any suggestions (which is unlike her). I think what my strategy will be right now will be to monitor the situation and see if there was just some weird lunar goings-on (okay, I'm grasping at straws here) or something that day that made things come out a little weird. And maybe there'd never be anything like it again. The whole thing was just such an unexpected curveball.

[CMZ]

I'm not sure blowing off a stake president's advice altogether is a good idea.

 

Yes, I am trying to follow all advice from Priesthood leaders (yes, I know all the ins and outs of how they are not always inspired - but at the same time I also don;t want to too cavalierly choose a piece of advice to NOT follow). So in this case I wanted to find out if anyone else had ever heard such a thing.

[CMZ]

That being said, I'll keep my mind open to the possibility this was advice based on what some leader -- or leaders -- of the Church previously said.

 

That's exactly what I'm trying to find out.

[CMZ]

This sounds awfully weird.

 

How serious was the stake president? From the way you describe it, I think he was way out of line.

 

He was serious. He wasn't joking. Most definitely not. But I wonder if maybe the words came out differently than he intended. I could see something like, "Discuss it together and then she can make the final call." And then I'd be like, "Yeah, that's about what my own parents did. I can live with that."

Edited August 26, 2015 by CMZ

[CMZ]

The only reason I would seek clarity from the SP is to ascertain if this is a one off or a habitual piece of advice that he gives all couples. If the SP were advising all couples to have 12 children , I think most here would agree that is not right. The advice in this instance is not so intrusive but still I would want to know if there is a pattern. If so, I would seek further instructions.

 

Yeah, he specifically stated that he was not going to dictate how many children we should have but that that would be left up to us. So, that was all good and expected.

[St. Bookmark]

Well the stake prez may be on to something there is an old teaching in the scriptures that the mothers do name the children.

Eve named her sons.

Leah and Rachel named there children

And some others.

But this was just old traditions not to be inforced or the like.

I named our first son and my wife named our second son. But we did it with the others approval.

Edited August 26, 2015 by St. Bookmark

[Stargazer]

But it's not that easy, is it? The OP has indicated that his soon-to-be-wife has seized upon the SP's counsel as proof that the SP - their priesthood leader - is on her side of the issue. And it's an issue that I think the vast majority of the Saints would expect to be left solely to the discretion of the couple. Instead, the SP has inserted himself into that decision. There now apparently exists a point of discord between an engaged couple about a sensitive and important topic.

 

 

Yes, I missed that little wrinkle in the original post, to my regret, or my initial response would have been somewhat different.

 

I am rather uncomfortable with CMZ's situation in the respect of baby names.  If the wife has latched onto the SP's counsel as The Way, then there would seem to be little for CMZ to do but make his suggestions for baby names and let her decide.

 

The SP's counsel goes beyond the counsel of the Church in respect of husbands and wives governing their families, and now its not their decision, it's hers.

 

I find that ...  ungood.

[MorningStar]

How did this subject even come up?

[CMZ]

How did this subject even come up?

 

The OP covers it. But we were just meeting with him to get the recommend for our sealing. And he gave some marital advice.

[Calm]

"Bilah and Rachel named there children" 

 

It was Leah and Rachel who named the sons and daughter.  Bilhah and Zilpah got to carry their sons for 9 months, but after that they were Leah's and Rachel's sons and they didn't get to name them iirc.

[Garden Girl]

Hello CMZ...

 

I can't believe your SP actually believes that a father has no place in the naming of children

... or expects anyone else to follow such a practice.  Please  tell me you see the folly in his advice...  of all things... even suggesting that the father not be a part of such an important event as, sharing with his wife, selecting the name(s) of their children.  I can understand perhaps giving the wife the final choice, but not to have any part is nonsense... 

 

GG

[HappyJackWagon]

Good. Not sure how any of this disagrees with what I did in my marriage and maybe that is not the point. But it is between a husband and wife and I thought it interesting to get conflicting advice from SPs.

 

Carry on.

Of course the issue of birth control plays into the idea that having lots of children make for a large kingdom in heaven. This is a remnant of fundamentalist polygamy doctrines that still influence the church today.

 

Keep it out of Social Hall.

[KevinG]

Of course the issue of birth control plays into the idea that having lots of children make for a large kingdom in heaven. This is a remnant of fundamentalist polygamy doctrines that still influence the church today.

 

Oh Crap!  No one told me.  (7 children...)

 

I have noticed that my large heavenly kingdom on earth is very blessed and a blessing.  Your mileage may differ but don't knock having a large and prosperous tribe until you have tried it.

[ttribe]

Oh Crap!  No one told me.  (7 children...)

 

I have noticed that my large heavenly kingdom on earth is very blessed and a blessing.  Your mileage may differ but don't knock having a large and prosperous tribe until you have tried it.

 

I don't think he's knocking having a large family, if you so choose.  I think he's commenting on the unfortunate cultural element that seems to frown on Mormons who don't have a large family.

[rpn]

Perhaps your SP has experienced one or more fathers who got up and blessed a child with a name other than the one the wife believed they'd agreed to or even the one placed on the birth certificate ---- there are members who have done such stupid things, claimed revelation from God and priesthood in support of doing it, after all.   Surely the SP warning people not to be so stupid would be good.

 

But I think you should not just ignore it.   You need to return to the SP and ask him to share the scriptures and doctrine that make his words inspired and appropriate for you to follow.    I don't think he can do it.

 

And I think that you and your fiancee should resolve this kind of "whom I get support from trumps my cleave unto my spouse obligations" 

[Lachoneus]

I've actually heard of men changing the baby's name when he gets up to give the baby a name and a blessing (not giving it the name he and his wife had decided upon because he felt inspired to change it).  My first thought was how my wife would react if I'd done this.  BUT, I've never heard that it's only up to the Mother to name the baby.

 

When my father was born, Grandma wanted to name him Jack, and that is the name she gave the hospital when they came to her to fill out the information for the birth certificate. Grandpa hated the name Jack, so when he got up in front of the ward to give Dad a name and a blessing, Grandpa said his name is Robert. Grandma never said a word and for the last 84 years my father has been called Robert, although his birth certificate still says Jack. When Dad needs to prove his identity, he uses his blessing certificate.

[Rain]

With one of your comments. I thought your fiance was having fun with it and made that comment of acceptance to you. Now that you are saying she was serious about agreeing with it...

The person I would talk to is your fiance. It matters not what the rest of us say. What matters is that you are on the same page. You don't have to agree on everything in your marriage, but it is vital that you work things out together.

[JulieM]

The person I would talk to is your fiance. It matters not what the rest of us say. What matters is that you are on the same page. You don't have to agree on everything in your marriage, but it is vital that you work things out together.

I agree with this. CMZ, have you asked your fiancée why she doesn't want you to be involved in the naming of your children? If so, what was her response? The naming of my and my husband's children was a very cool and actually enjoyable experience to do together.

[CMZ]

Hello CMZ...

 

I can't believe your SP actually believes that a father has no place in the naming of children

... or expects anyone else to follow such a practice.  Please  tell me you see the folly in his advice...  of all things... even suggesting that the father not be a part of such an important event as, sharing with his wife, selecting the name(s) of their children.  I can understand perhaps giving the wife the final choice, but not to have any part is nonsense... 

 

GG

 

Oh, I know how to deal with situations where a leader is giving their own advice. I was wondering if anyone else had ever heard the same advice or if he might have got the idea from some obscure Church talk or something.

[CMZ]

How does this sound?

 

 

Hi President _________,

I am seeking some clarification on what you told _________ and I on Sunday. I have never heard before that only the wife is to be involved in the naming of the babies. I had always thought it was to be a mutually agreed upon decision by husband and wife. I had been looking forward to being a righteous husband and father who was involved with his family, and neither a domineering nor a neglectful father. I would never presume to be the only one responsible for naming the children but it was a bit of a shock to me to hear that I should have no involvement in this regard. Can you let me know if I am misunderstanding something? Maybe what was meant was that ________ and I could discuss the matter and then she could make the final decision? Or maybe not?

Sincerely,

CMZ

[rpn]

I wouldn't send your language.   It gives your SP power that he has not indicated any source of authority for.    Better

 

Dear SP, can you tell me where in the scriptures or anywhere else it say that women name children, or anything scriptural that supports that?   (If I have misunderstood what you told us, please clarify.  My fiancee felt quite vindicated in her desire to exclude me from participating in what I have to think has to be a joint decision if we are following the Lord's way of managing families.)