CMZ Posted August 27, 2015 Author Posted August 27, 2015 That also sounds sort of challenging. Geez, there's no way to approach this that doesn't make me look like a big jerk.
Guest Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 About to get married for the first time at a somewhat late age and in the whole time, pre- and post-mission, leading up to this moment I have been looking forward to being a strong and compassionate father in the gospel, one who is involved with my wife and children, loves them and doesn't abuse or neglect them. You can fill in more blanks from here. But I received something of a shock a couple days ago as my fiancee and I met with our stake president for the sealing recommend interview and he said that only the wife should be involved in naming the children, that after everything the mother goes through in bearing and delivering the children that the father shouldn't be arrogant enough to assume that he has any say whatsoever in what the children will be named. Of course the mother phsyically goes through a lot ore than the father does in bringing children to the earth and I am very cognizant of that lopsided state of affairs but I had always thought it would be both partners discussing the matter until they came to mutual agreement but now I'm finding out I'm a pretty bad person for thinking I could have any say in the matter. Is there some kind of scriptural/spiritual precedent for this that I should have been enlightened enough to catch before this late stage in my life? I guess maybe it was specific direction just to me to only bow out of this one area of concern?When it comes to children, every decision should be a joint decision. EVERY DECISSION!
ttribe Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 That also sounds sort of challenging. Geez, there's no way to approach this that doesn't make me look like a big jerk. If you're really going to do this, send the one you wrote; it sounds less defiant. That being said, I'm still on board with ignoring your SP's nonsense and going your merry way. 2
Garden Girl Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 CMZ...I think that cutting a father out of having any say in naming a child can put a distance psychologically between him and the child. GG 1
Stargazer Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 That also sounds sort of challenging. Geez, there's no way to approach this that doesn't make me look like a big jerk. So just go along with it. If I were called to be the Stake Primary President (I'm a guy, btw), I think I would challenge the SP on his authority, or authorization in the Handbook, to call me to this position. I believe I would be completely justified. When Brigham Young called a man to preside over what became a short-lived New Order community, it is said that he questioned BY about it. BY said, well, go ahead and pray about it, and if the Lord confirms it to you, then do it, and if not, then I won't hold you to it. Back when I was a branch president, once upon a time, I called a sister to be the branch primary president. She questioned it, and I, completely unruffled, told her to pray about it, and if she felt the Lord was calling her (that was her question, whether it was just me calling someone or was I acting under inspiration), then accept the calling, and if not, then decline it. After a few days she called me and said she accepted. This is not a theocracy. Question the SP respectfully. Or just go along with it and let your wife do the naming. 1
ALarson Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) That also sounds sort of challenging. Geez, there's no way to approach this that doesn't make me look like a big jerk.Then just leave it alone. Unless your fiancee is making a big deal out of this right now too, I'd drop it and wait until the time comes when you're having a child. If she still pushes this issue at that time, find out why she feels that you shouldn't share in this important decision (it is your child too). I cannot imagine anyone being so unreasonable as to cut out their spouse regarding something they should both be involved in. Edited August 27, 2015 by ALarson
strappinglad Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Having watched a few " Bridezilla " episodes, I am no longer surprised at some people's lack of reasonableness . I also suspect that this situation will be a bee in a thorn's saddle for a while yet. 2
Stargazer Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 And I wonder if the SP realizes just how much contention and conflict he managed to engender in someone's marriage before they were even married? Unnecessarily, I might add, since I don't think that child-naming is well-known as a common cause of marital discord. 3
rpn Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 The problem with ignoring it, is that the marriage will be affected forever unless your SP backs off. And you deserve a marriage that doesn't start out disrupted because of leader's personal bias or unusual way of being a shepherd. 1
Doctor Steuss Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Update: all has been mostly resolved.Find comfort knowing that while it is difficult, the road back from excommunication is possible. [This Space Reserved For Appropriate Emoticon]
CMZ Posted August 27, 2015 Author Posted August 27, 2015 What I ended up sending was: I am seeking some clarification on what you told ______ and I on Sunday. I have never heard before that only the wife is to be involved in the naming of the babies. I had always thought it was to be a mutually agreed upon decision by husband and wife. I had been looking forward to being a righteous husband and father who was involved with his family, and neither a domineering nor a neglectful father. I would never presume to be the only one responsible for naming the children but it was a bit of a shock to me to hear that I should have no involvement in this regard so I have been trying to find if there is scriptural or prophetic support for this. Can you let me know if I am misunderstanding something? Maybe what was meant was that _______ and I could discuss the matter and then she could make the final decision? Or maybe not? I am trying to steer very clear of unrighteous dominion here. But being pushed out of involvement feels wrong in a different way.
CMZ Posted August 27, 2015 Author Posted August 27, 2015 He responded (in part) with: The naming of the babies is a couple thing. any time i give the advice to a couple it is tongue and cheek [sic].... Yes, you are correct it should be a couple thing. I always ended up letting my wife choose the name but i always approved of the names as well. you will love married life and working through all of the opportunities marriage provides. sorry again if i caused confusion. Feel free to give me a call and we can discuss. I will say again that he sounded deadly serious in the interview. This is why I felt I better clarify it with him. Next step is to run this all past my wonderful fiancee.
Rain Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Next time please, please go to your fiance/wife first. I've always felt we've had a good marriage, but there were times that got tense because we didn't communicate well. When the communication changed our marriage became so much better.Edited to add:Out of curiosity I asked my 17 year old daughter to imagine herself here. She told me she would want her fiance to talk to her first."Why?"Because we are partners. This is like overstepping me and going to a higher authority..." Edited August 28, 2015 by Rain 2
ALarson Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) He responded (in part) with: I will say again that he sounded deadly serious in the interview. This is why I felt I better clarify it with him. Next step is to run this all past my wonderful fiancee.Let us know how it goes. Hopefully she'll see that it was all just a misunderstanding. Edited August 28, 2015 by ALarson
CMZ Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Next time please, please go to your fiance/wife first.I've always felt we've had a good marriage, but there were times that got tense because we didn't communicate well. When the communication changed our marriage became so much better.Edited to add:Out of curiosity I asked my 17 year old daughter to imagine herself here. She told me she would want her fiance to talk to her first."Why?"Because we are partners. This is like overstepping me and going to a higher authority..." Yeah, I did go to her first. And the response made me think I better also seek clarification from the SP. Me saying that I was going to now take it to my fiancee didn't mean that I hadn't also spoken with her about it before speaking with the SP about it. Absolutely none of this was about, "I think I'll ignore my wife and only speak with the stake president. Or with him first and then her." Edited August 28, 2015 by CMZ
Paradox_58 Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Perhaps the SP was saying this because he had seen something like what happened in a ward I was in...the couple had chosen a name, and when the time came for the blessing, Dad gave the child a different name. Mom wasn't happy! I've also heard (but not seen it personally) that one time a grandfather who didn't like the son-in-law gave the child a family name different than the one the couple chose when he blessed the baby. 1
Garden Girl Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 Then just leave it alone. Unless your fiancee is making a big deal out of this right now too, I'd drop it and wait until the time comes when you're having a child. If she still pushes this issue at that time, find out why she feels that you shouldn't share in this important decision (it is your child too). I cannot imagine anyone being so unreasonable as to cut out their spouse regarding something they should both be involved in. I don't know, AL, this woman is still his fiancee... maybe the time to find out why she feels CMZ shouldn't share in this important decision is now before they are married... in fact, there may be other areas they need to discuss now to be sure they are on the same page.... things like children, how many, how they will name them... finances... whether she will work or stay home and under what conditions... etc etc... Some couples find it helpful to go through pre-marital counseling... if these types of things were discussed before marriage, I imagine a lot of difficulties could be avoided... GG
Calm Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) If you are wondering what to talk about, there are some books that list questions to ask each other before marriage so that you have these things discussed before the marriage when there is time and patience and excessive attraction to deal with them and not at times of stress and chaos where there is no time to put into research or discussions. Doesn't mean people don't change their mind when the time for such potential conflicts appears, but it helps. While we never discussed childrearing practices, we both went through the same behaviour psychology class and so we were on the same page of how to discipline...just not on what to discipline about. I think we messed things up on that for our kids, but even if they can't be very consistent at keeping a clean house, they are great with taking care of their own and others and being loving which covers a lot of others sins imo. Even stuff like what kind of TV do you like to watch and how much is important. I don't like watching political stuff or old cowboy and war movies while my husband loves them to unwind, so we end up a lot of days not seeing each other past 8 (because I have a sleep disorder and he snores so separate bedrooms...apparently this actually helps the quality of marriage according to some studies but coupled with not spending time before bed, can be distancing). Edited August 30, 2015 by calmoriah
ALarson Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 I don't know, AL, this woman is still his fiancee... maybe the time to find out why she feels CMZ shouldn't share in this important decision is now before they are married... in fact, there may be other areas they need to discuss now to be sure they are on the same page.... things like children, how many, how they will name them... finances... whether she will work or stay home and under what conditions... etc etc... Some couples find it helpful to go through pre-marital counseling... if these types of things were discussed before marriage, I imagine a lot of difficulties could be avoided... GGOh, I agree and that's why I said "unless your fiancee is making a big deal about this right now". If she is, even after CMZ talks to her again, he should follow your good advice (and calmoriah has some great suggestions above too).
Kenngo1969 Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 My first son is going to be named after me: Ezra Bartolomeus Hickenlooper, IV. And that's non-negotiable! 2
SSndstorm Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 When babies become commodities, they become disposable. Of course, theyve already become disposable through abortion. This simply reinforces the idea that a baby who does not meet expectations is disposable.
Calm Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 SSndstorm, are you reading what people say? Nowhere is there any suggestion of babies as commodities. Totally off topic.
Kenngo1969 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) When babies become commodities, they become disposable. Of course, theyve already become disposable through abortion. This simply reinforces the idea that a baby who does not meet expectations is disposable. SSndstorm, are you reading what people say? Nowhere is there any suggestion of babies as commodities. Totally off topic.Read? Nah! That's too much work for someone who apparently dropped by just long enough to do a quick hit-and-run! Edited August 31, 2015 by Kenngo1969
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