The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In any case, last I heard God operates through human beings, otherwise we wouldn't need a missionaries to spread the gospel. God could just send angels out to do it for us. Or beam discussions straight into people's homes.He lets us help in his work but I do not think we are the primary means through which God operates. We are an auxiliary, like a parent asking their small child to help with the cleaning. The child is hopelessly incompetent at it but it makes the child happy to be helping and the child learns how to do things. Meanwhile the parent goes behind the child's back and fixes the areas where the child failed to do the job right or even made it worse through ignorance.
ERayR Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I will tolerate those who like Miracle Whip -- so long as they acknowledge that Miracle Whip and mayo are not interchangeable.You got that right.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I will tolerate those who like Miracle Whip -- so long as they acknowledge that Miracle Whip and mayo are not interchangeable.I am intolerant. MW is poop. It is poop I say. ERayR are we in disagreement? Might be a first? Edited August 25, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I am intolerant. MW is poop. It is poop I say. ERayR are we in disagreement? Might be a first?Disagree, fecal matter probably has fewer calories.
Gray Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 He lets us help in his work but I do not think we are the primary means through which God operates. We are an auxiliary, like a parent asking their small child to help with the cleaning. The child is hopelessly incompetent at it but it makes the child happy to be helping and the child learns how to do things. Meanwhile the parent goes behind the child's back and fixes the areas where the child failed to do the job right or even made it worse through ignorance. Is God an accountant who sneaks into the Church Office Building at night to balance the books? I don't think so. I think if you wish to see the work of God, just look around at everything you see.
ttribe Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Is God an accountant who sneaks into the Church Office Building at night to balance the books? I don't think so. I think if you wish to see the work of God, just look around at everything you see. <-------[Has two accounting degrees. Now is questioning whether they will be of any use in the eternities.] 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Disagree, fecal matter probably has fewer calories.Ha.
The Nehor Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Is God an accountant who sneaks into the Church Office Building at night to balance the books? I don't think so. I think if you wish to see the work of God, just look around at everything you see.No, but I imagine he spiritually slaps a few accountants upside the head when needed and if an error appears and they lose money he factors that in and patches it up somehow. Same way he often cleans up my stupid messes. I honestly do not think Church finances are what he considers the most important part of interacting with us in any case.
CMZ Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I think I started a thread on this years ago. Critics will never be satisfied. For instance: "The church should apologize for _____." If the church were to apologize, the response would be, "Ah ha!!! The church admitted to wrongdoing! The church isn't true!" "The church should do more charitable work." But when the church does charitable work? "That's just a PR move!" I read criticisms years ago that it was wrong of the church to have members wear Mormon Helping Hands shirts because that's all about being seen of men. Personally, if I went through a disaster and I needed help, I would appreciate having a way to identify who my helpers are, especially with a group of strangers. There are people out there who use such times to take advantage of others, so anyone could blend in, walk into someone's house, and steal their belongings. Of course I would have no objections to being helped by a neighbor I'm familiar with. "The church should have more diversity in its videos." I'm sure the reaction would be that the church only did so with less than pure intentions. Other examples? Forgive me if this has already been brought up; hard for me to read the entire thread right now. One is that before the Brigham Young manual came out in 1998 (and then the subsequent Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manuals) feminists were saying that they didn't like that there were two sets of curriculum for men and for women. But then when the BY manual was released and both Relief Society and Priesthood used it the feminists complained that they were being lumped in with the men so that their unique needs weren't being met. (Of course this mindset also ignores the oft-ignored fact that there are still separate Priesthood and Relief Society manuals.) Edited August 25, 2015 by CMZ 3
Teancum Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Miracle Whip is of the devil.I grew up on a Miracle Whip. Then I moved east and was introduced to Helmanns Mayoinase. I have long been converted.
Jeanne Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) The other thing I don't understand is why critics are so annoyed that they are ignored. What kind of organization takes advice from its opponents who think its guiding goals and principles are misguided or outright wrong and expects to survive? This is like Hitler whining that Churchhill won't take his calls where he wants to recommend troop and fleet deployment strategies?Just a quick question..would we ever know if any recent changes in the church with women being more involved, if it was because of listening to a critic? Kate Kelly was exed..but somebody listened. Of course women didn't get the priesthood and probably never will but a lot of women are going to have a compensated voice in important issues now..no one loses if they listen. Edited August 25, 2015 by Jeanne
Kenngo1969 Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I've seen similar responses from critics of all stripes. Republican vs Democrats, Baseball fans vs Football fans, almost everyone vs Soccer , Blondes vs Brunettes. None of them want to give the other side a break. Yabut is their favorite retort.Yeah, but ... Oh. Sorry.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Just a quick question..would we ever know if any recent changes in the church with women being more involved, if it was because of listening to a critic? Kate Kelly was exed..but somebody listened. Of course women didn't get the priesthood and probably never will but a lot of women are going to have a compensated voice in important issues now..no one loses if they listen.I think it more likely an outgrowth of "counseling with [Church] councils," to apply Elder Ballard's wording.
Kenngo1969 Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Just a quick question..would we ever know if any recent changes in the church with women being more involved, if it was because of listening to a critic? Kate Kelly was exed..but somebody listened. Kate Kelly might not've had much to do with it. Personally, I doubt she did. It's at least as likely, if not more so, that changes were brought about from listening to faithful voices on the inside as opposed to those on the outside of the organization. To me, it would be disingenuous and duplicitous to excommunicate the Kate Kellys of the world, on the one hand, but to say, "Buuuuut she/they have some good ideas we ought to implement," on the other. I don't think the Church, as an organization, engages in that sort of duplicity as a rule: if you do, we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
HappyJackWagon Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Kate Kelly might not've had much to do with it. Personally, I doubt she did. It's at least as likely, if not more so, that changes were brought about from listening to faithful voices on the inside as opposed to those on the outside of the organization. To me, it would be disingenuous and duplicitous to excommunicate the Kate Kellys of the world, on the one hand, but to say, "Buuuuut she/they have some good ideas we ought to implement," on the other. I don't think the Church, as an organization, engages in that sort of duplicity as a rule: if you do, we'll simply have to agree to disagree.Part of what Kate Kelly did was move the needle of extremism so far to the left that others started to look more reasonable. This is a standard tactic of activism. I think she knew she wouldn't get everything she wanted but she made the Neylan McBains look moderate and seem easier to work with. Mormon Women stand was organized as a response to OW and I believe they were part of the "faithful voices" that were listened to. So I think it would be inaccurate to claim KK didn't move the needle on women's issues just because she didn't get the extreme change she was calling for.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I grew up on a Miracle Whip. Then I moved east and was introduced to Helmanns Mayoinase. I have long been converted.Umm, here in the West, it is known as Best Foods Mayonnaise. Same company, same product, different trademark names. Sorry you didn't learn this before moving east. If only you had asked. Edited August 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Brian 2.0 Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Didn't some prophet once say that Miracle Whip stood next to murder in seriousness of sin? I can't find the quote. It might be disavowed now but I know a lot of people that still believe it. 3
ERayR Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 I am intolerant. MW is poop. It is poop I say. ERayR are we in disagreement? Might be a first? We are in disagreement but I forgive you your sins.
ERayR Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Just a quick question..would we ever know if any recent changes in the church with women being more involved, if it was because of listening to a critic? Kate Kelly was exed..but somebody listened. Of course women didn't get the priesthood and probably never will but a lot of women are going to have a compensated voice in important issues now..no one loses if they listen. I think it more a matter of making official what was already, in large part, common practice.
Teancum Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Umm, here in the West, it is known as Best Foods Mayonnaise. Same company, same product, different trademark names. Sorry you didn't learn this before moving east. If only you had asked.I blame it on my mother.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Not if the church opens up their financial records and there's nothing to hide. There would be no criticism if the church were transparent regarding their finances unless they've spent the tithing money and other donations unwisely.There would be criticism either way. I am fully in favor of open books, but do not believe in the fairytale that transparency would make the criticisms go away. The only reason for transparency is because it is right. 1
rodheadlee Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 So who gets to decide if the tithes are spent wisely? Me? Rockpond? ErayR? Teancum? The majority rules and we vote on it? Who gets to decide what the Church should aplogize for? BlueDreams? Me? Robert Harris?JulieM? Stargazer? Ex- Mormons? Anti Mormons? Never Been Mormons? 2
Robert F. Smith Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 So who gets to decide if the tithes are spent wisely? Me? Rockpond? ErayR? Teancum? The majority rules and we vote on it? Who gets to decide what the Church should aplogize for? BlueDreams? Me? Robert Harris?JulieM? Stargazer? Ex- Mormons? Anti Mormons? Never Been Mormons?That is not the issue. There already exists a hierarchical structure which makes such decisions, and most Mormons would accept such decisions (just as they do now) if the whole matter was transparent. The anti-Mormons would provide a chorus of denunciations regardless of how such funds were spent, just as they do now. 1
hagoth7 Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Not if the church opens up their financial records and there's nothing to hide. There would be no criticism if the church were transparent regarding their finances unless they've spent the tithing money and other donations unwisely.I suggest there would be even more nitpicking over the details and priorities of what was spent, just as Judas nitpicked over the expense of oil used to anoint Jesus feet. 3
MorningStar Posted August 26, 2015 Author Posted August 26, 2015 I suggest there would be even more nitpicking over the details and priorities of what was spent, just as Judas nitpicked over the expense of oil used to anoint Jesus feet. Exactly. I don't tell my kids how much I spent on their birthdays because they would want everything to be even, but sometimes I make the decision to spend more on a kid who has greater needs. They would be protesting how unfair it is. Also, the correct condiment is mustard. 1
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