Thinking Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Since September there have been at least five topics about baking a cake for a gay wedding. There were strong feelings on both sides of the issue. The debate about this issue raises some questions that I would like to explore. Rule #1: Gay marriage is off limits.Rule #2: Refer to rule #1. Question #1: Are there other wedding situations that would allow a wedding professional to refuse service?Question #2: How far can this extend into the service industry? For example, do you refuse service if you know that alcohol will be served at the wedding?Would a DJ be justified in canceling after receiving the playlist?Would a seamstress be justified in refusing to make a gown that was too revealing?
Calm Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 I think if someone is upfront about limitations before even agreeing to even talk about what the couple wants, I would see refusal as acceptable cause no one has expectations or wasted time or resources yet.But then I am not a professional.Still if I was different in any significant wayfrom the usual in any business, I would have this up front and center so anyone thinking about hiring me could consider this first. 3
Duncan Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 I would imagine if there was anything illegal going, i.e. underage drinking-my brother in law's brother's wedding had wedding crashers show up and one of them drowned due to drinking and my BIL family didn't know the kid at all so I am not sure what happened. I guess I would be asking questions to see if you wanted to do the wedding 1
Popular Post MorningStar Posted August 10, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 10, 2015 I've performed at some weddings and I had to tell a friend that I wouldn't sing country music because my voice wasn't right for it and it's not music I can get into and feel like I'm singing it sincerely. I suggested they play it for their first dance and gave her a list of examples I was willing to sing. I think especially with some kind of art form - music, photography, etc., the artist needs to feel good about the ceremony to do their best work. 6
sunstoned Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 If I am not mistaken, this very issue went to court in Oregon and more recently in Colorado, and it was decided that a business that served the public cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/
strappinglad Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 There's a rule breaker in every crowd ! As cal said, the business should be up front with concerns. If I were a wood carver , I would certainly let it be known that some types of carving would not be done.
Storm Rider Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Since September there have been at least five topics about baking a cake for a gay wedding. There were strong feelings on both sides of the issue. The debate about this issue raises some questions that I would like to explore. For example, do you refuse service if you know that alcohol will be served at the wedding?Would a DJ be justified in canceling after receiving the playlist?Would a seamstress be justified in refusing to make a gown that was too revealing? The legal system can only make a judgment if a reason provided violates the law. If no reason is given and the business is rejected there is no violation of law. A closely held business is not required to work if the owner just does not want to work. I don't like rude people; I won't work with them regardless of how much they want to spend on my services. I have grown too old and have arrived at a point where I only want to enjoy myself. If I don't like a potential client then I don't have an opening, the time, or any interest in providing a service. I don't care if they are green, ugly, fat, cult-member, etc.; if I like them I am happy to serve them. On the other hand, if I don't want to work I am not working. I don't know why this is such a hard concept for people to understand. No business is forced to work in the US.
Danzo Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 If I am not mistaken, this very issue went to court in Oregon and more recently in Colorado, and it was decided that a business that served the public cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation.http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/In Oregon, it hasn't gone to a court of law yet.
maklelan Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Since September there have been at least five topics about baking a cake for a gay wedding. There were strong feelings on both sides of the issue. The debate about this issue raises some questions that I would like to explore. Rule #1: Gay marriage is off limits.Rule #2: Refer to rule #1. Question #1: Are there other wedding situations that would allow a wedding professional to refuse service?Question #2: How far can this extend into the service industry? For example, do you refuse service if you know that alcohol will be served at the wedding?Would a DJ be justified in canceling after receiving the playlist?Would a seamstress be justified in refusing to make a gown that was too revealing? Of course there are situations that would allow a wedding professional to refuse service. Discrimination against a protected class of people is not one of them. 1
Thinking Posted August 10, 2015 Author Posted August 10, 2015 I would imagine if there was anything illegal going, i.e. underage drinking-my brother in law's brother's wedding had wedding crashers show up and one of them drowned due to drinking and my BIL family didn't know the kid at all so I am not sure what happened. I guess I would be asking questions to see if you wanted to do the wedding I should have said in the OP to not consider illegal things.
CV75 Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) "Unless he is 6’8”, 270 pounds, rock-hard, young and stupid, and has a lot of money, I’d tell them to go to school, get an education, and get a job because he is going to wind up on skid row probably. He is going to get beat up, he is going to lose everything he’s got, all his friends, and the chances of making it in the business right now, unless you are somebody’s son or somebody’s cousin or brother, are about slim to none." (Brutus Beefcake) ETA: Sorry, I thought the thread title was "Question for Wresting Professionals"... Edited August 10, 2015 by CV75
Jeanne Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Being upfront and honest as an employer is good...but for an employee, it is a little bit more touchy and difficult.
Guest Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Since September there have been at least five topics about baking a cake for a gay wedding. There were strong feelings on both sides of the issue. The debate about this issue raises some questions that I would like to explore. Rule #1: Gay marriage is off limits.Rule #2: Refer to rule #1. Question #1: Are there other wedding situations that would allow a wedding professional to refuse service?Question #2: How far can this extend into the service industry? For example, do you refuse service if you know that alcohol will be served at the wedding?Would a DJ be justified in canceling after receiving the playlist?Would a seamstress be justified in refusing to make a gown that was too revealing?You are trying or implying that Alcohol, playlist and wedding dressing are someone equal to the real issue of Gay marriage. First a seamstress may not know it is a Gay wedding, and even if they did their service has ended once the clothes is paid for...DJ' are not professions that have store fronts and people walking of the street...so it would be very easy to find an excuse to not take part. Alcohol, that is a given that some 90% of all wedding will have the beverage served. The issue is not disagreeing with some issues of a social gatherings. The issue I'd marriage, and institution (th first and most important one) established by God in the first two books of written scripture and the purpose of that institution as stated by God in the Garden of Eden. If it was that was the most important and pressing issue to the creator of all things...so should it be with any who believe in God, and any who follow Christ as well. As far as those who support or take part in Gay Marriage, it is odd that instead of going to another bakery, their first response is to backupt a small business. So each time you hear a Gay couple say that they would never think of making a religion too accept or sanction a Gay marriage it is a lie. Right now it is baby steps until one day the right case comes along to take to the Courts, to either limit free speech from the pulpit to to force churches to allow Gay marriage, then to force them to ordain clergy. Note that I am speaking of the movement as lying, not every individual who migh wade into the waters on the issue.
Thinking Posted August 10, 2015 Author Posted August 10, 2015 You are trying or implying that Alcohol, playlist and wedding dressing are someone equal to the real issue of Gay marriage. No.
The Nehor Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 As a professional wedding crasher who shows up to meet women I admit I do discriminate against homosexual weddings.Does this make me a bad person? 1
toon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Question #1: Are there other wedding situations that would allow a wedding professional to refuse service? I suspect that, in large part, it would come down to whether the underlying basis for refusing to provide the service is a statutorily protected classification. Generally, before a private sector business can be implicated, there has to be some state or federal statute prohibiting the business for discriminating, and those public accommodation statutes generally protect against discrimination based upon some enumerated protected status. If the discrimination is not directly or even indirectly on account of an enumerated status, it's permitted. So, for example, I'm not aware of any state or federal statute lists alcohol consumption (as opposed to alcoholism as a disability) as a protected status. LIkewise, songs on a playlist or a revealing dress. There is no federal statute and many state statutes do not prohibit against discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation.
toon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 If I am not mistaken, this very issue went to court in Oregon and more recently in Colorado, and it was decided that a business that served the public cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/ But that's only because Oregon and Colorado had statutes in effect prohibiting against discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. 1
toon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Of course there are situations that would allow a wedding professional to refuse service. Discrimination against a protected class of people is not one of them. This. It has to be an enumerated protected class, based upon either state or federal law. Generally, with some states, the list of protected classifications is longer than those protected under federal law
toon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 As a professional wedding crasher who shows up to meet women I admit I do discriminate against homosexual weddings.Does this make me a bad person? It is possible for heterosexual women to attend a gay wedding. Just pay attention to and pick up on the women that sit on the straight side of the aisle, as opposed to the gay side. (Google the Key and Peele skit for the reference.)
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 It is possible for heterosexual women to attend a gay wedding. Just pay attention to and pick up on the women that sit on the straight side of the aisle, as opposed to the gay side. (Google the Key and Peele skit for the reference.)Well aware. I have attended one myself as a friend of one of the grooms. The ratio is just not as good. Have to be choosy so I spend my time wisely. 1
toon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Well aware. I have attended one myself as a friend of one of the grooms. The ratio is just not as good. Have to be choosy so I spend my time wisely. The ration of gay to straight women might not be as good. But what about the ratio of straight women to straigt men? In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Not to mention, anyone who would attend a gay wedding must have lower standards . . . Edited August 11, 2015 by toon
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 The ration of gay to straight women might not be as good. But what about the ratio of straight women to straigt men? In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Not to mention, anyone who would attend a gay wedding must have lower standards . . .Wait....but I just admitted I attended one.....
toon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Wait....but I just admitted I attended one..... Oops. This could go downhill fast. But it reminds me of when I was in young mens and when attending stake dances. We would look around during the opening prayer for the young women that had their eyes open, to find out who we would want to dance with
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