Do The Essays Confirm "anti-Mormon Lies"?

[jkwilliams]

This same argument could be used against many of the OT prophets.  Men do some really crappy things and yet he uses these atrociously weak vessels to do great things.  What has made it easy for me to be a LDS, a Christian, and a disciple of Christ is that I find it difficult to begin finding faults with prophets when I so clearly see myself in the mirror.  More importantly, I am forced to acknowledge that even in my weakness our Father in Heaven has used me to serve his children. 

 

Once we understand who we are in the sea of humanity; we acknowledge our own sinful natures, then it is all clear sailing after that into repentance and faith.  It is really odd how a minor change in perspective can change our entire view.

 

As I said, it wasn't that Joseph did "crappy" things or was weak. It was that I stopped rationalizing certain things, and then I stopped rationalizing the other things, which were far more consequential than anyone's behavior. 

[HappyJackWagon]

This same argument could be used against many of the OT prophets.  Men do some really crappy things and yet he uses these atrociously weak vessels to do great things.  What has made it easy for me to be a LDS, a Christian, and a disciple of Christ is that I find it difficult to begin finding faults with prophets when I so clearly see myself in the mirror.  More importantly, I am forced to acknowledge that even in my weakness our Father in Heaven has used me to serve his children. 

 

Once we understand who we are in the sea of humanity; we acknowledge our own sinful natures, then it is all clear sailing after that into repentance and faith.  It is really odd how a minor change in perspective can change our entire view.

I can only go with this line of reasoning IF we also accept that our interpretation of worthiness may not be what God truly intends. In other words, we set high standards of worthiness for ourselves and each other so when "prophets" don't seem to abide these same standards then it causes confusion. If we accept that God is much more lenient, much less damning based on worthiness issues then I can get behind the idea that God uses unworthy people to fulfill his work.

[jkwilliams]

I can only go with this line of reasoning IF we also accept that our interpretation of worthiness may not be what God truly intends. In other words, we set high standards of worthiness for ourselves and each other so when "prophets" don't seem to abide these same standards then it causes confusion. If we accept that God is much more lenient, much less damning based on worthiness issues then I can get behind the idea that God uses unworthy people to fulfill his work.

 

I don't have a problem with God using flawed people to accomplish his purposes. Anyone who expects perfection from religious leaders is going to be disappointed. So, no, I didn't leave the church because Joseph Smith behaved badly. 

[HappyJackWagon]

I don't have a problem with God using flawed people to accomplish his purposes. Anyone who expects perfection from religious leaders is going to be disappointed. So, no, I didn't leave the church because Joseph Smith behaved badly. 

Yes, but there's a vast difference between "expecting perfection" and recognizing fallibility. I never expected JS to be perfect but I did expect him to behave in a moral way, not propositioning other men's wives or their young daughters etc. If God is truly OK with that kind of behavior then we should change our entire paradigm about what it means to be worthy.

[carbon dioxide]

I accidentally gave you a rep point on this and can't figure out how to take it back.

GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSnWOWEXyVg

Edited July 22, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

 

It's not necessarily an issue of being angry at JS or the betrayal of trust when church leaders systematically obfuscate the history. For many it is simply coming to the realization that JS isn't everything the church claims. This means individuals have to come to their own conclusions, accepting both the good and bad about JS and sometimes the bad seems to outweigh the good. These conclusions are often reached after significant study and prayer. As long as the church continues to make the mistake of resting the validity of the church on JS, his significant character flaws will continue to cause people to wonder about his actual role in God's plan.

Like hollywood, the Church has had a way of making prophets look like almost flawless human beings with a sort of borg like relationship with God.  Of course he made mistakes.  We don't believe he was Christ.  What is significant to one person is not to another.  To me the whole polygamy thing is no big deal but I accept that others believe it is.  I guess I can consider myself lucky that it does not bother me so it will not be an issue that personally trips me up.  I have other things that cause me troubles.

[HappyJackWagon]

Like hollywood, the Church has had a way of making prophets look like almost flawless human beings with a sort of borg like relationship with God.  Of course he made mistakes.  We don't believe he was Christ.  What is significant to one person is not to another.  To me the whole polygamy thing is no big deal but I accept that others believe it is.  I guess I can consider myself lucky that it does not bother me so it will not be an issue that personally trips me up.  I have other things that cause me troubles.

I appreciate that perspective and I recognize that many people don't have a problem with polygamy but I'm curious about many of the behaviors around JS's practice of polygamy.

 

Do you see any problems with...

lying to a spouse

lying to the entire church and society at large

coercing young girls into marriage by creating fear of eternal damnation for them and their family

Using position of authority to pressure women into marriage

using older women to groom younger women for polygamy

shaming women who turned down JS's proposition

married man propositioning a friends daughter or wife for marriage

 

In other words, if we took the practice of polygamy out of the equation, would you have a problem with these individual behaviors in and of themselves.

Edited July 22, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[Nevo]

You see Mormonism as the restoration of God's true church, so you see Joseph's life from that perspective. A while back someone brought up a quote from (IIRC) Alexander Doniphan saying that Joseph had refused a plea bargain for a short sentence because he didn't think his followers would wait for him. I thought that was a fascinating bit of information from a well-known, sympathetic source, but you dismissed it out of hand. I'm not saying you were wrong, just that how we interpret the record--and what we accept as part of the record--depends ultimately on how we see the Mormon enterprise as a whole.

 

I had completely forgotten about this, but I looked up the quote and, you're right, I did dismiss it out of hand.

 

For those following along at home, here is the quote in question. The speaker is allegedly Alexander Doniphan, recalling on "a snowy evening during the winter of 1881–2" the events of 1838–39:

 

However he [Joseph Smith] must go to Booneville for trial, and I told him there was danger that he would be taken from the guard and hanged on the way over. The country was then new and many parts of the road lonely. His guards were the sheriff and posse from Caldwell and could not be expected to make a very stout resistance. Accordingly I suggested that I would secure a strong guard from Liberty to ensure his safety. 'Don't do anything of the kind,' he said. 'I know these people much better than you do. These fellows off yonder in Caldwell hate me like the devil and are ready enough to hang me, and this Sheriff don't bear me any particular love. But he is poor. They all are up there. And he loves money much more than he hates me. I have some money with me and my friends at Far West can raise a good deal more. I don't believe they will need furnish very much, however. I think I can get off for two or three hundred dollars. And don't you see that on our journey over to Booneville is the very time? I can slip away while we are camped over night and never a breath of suspicion attach to the Sheriff. If you get a guard of your Liberty friends it would make me altogether too safe. I don't know them. They would be hard to approach. There would be two parties to deal with and might become jealous of each other. It would be more than double the difficulty of getting away. To be sure your plan would be sure to clear me finally, for I know as well as you they can prove nothing against me.

 

But, don't you see I can't afford to wait. I have got up this Mormon business. These people are gathered now and believe in me and in this Book of Mormon and other stuff. If I go to prison and lie two or three years, they will lose faith and become scattered, go back to their homes in Illinois and other States. Now their enthusiasm in the midst of my persecutions, is at a white heat, and I could lead them any where. Then they will have grown cold and suspicious; only a few will hang together. It would take me years to gather them again and get them ready for my plans. Perhaps I never could. The best part of my life has been spent in this scheme, and success depends upon my immediate liberation. And I am sure I am not fooled about the power of money with these men. I'm going to be free in a day or two. Once free I shall gather my band and go beyond the Rockies where none will molest me for many years. By that time I shall have a grand empire there and can defend myself.

-- "Joe Smith, The Mormon," Weekly Graphic (Kirksville, MO), 28 September 1883, 4, http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/MO/Miss1881.htm#092883 (original here).

 

You are correct that my perspective on Joseph Smith prevents me from taking seriously dubious third-hand quotes that have him saying things like "I have got up this Mormon business" and "The best part of my life has been spent in this scheme."

[carbon dioxide]

I appreciate that perspective and I recognize that many people don't have a problem with polygamy but I'm curious about many of the behaviors around JS's practice of polygamy.

 

Do you see any problems with...

lying to a spouse

lying to the entire church and society at large

coercing young girls into marriage by creating fear of eternal damnation for them and their family

Using position of authority to pressure women into marriage

using older women to groom younger women for polygamy

shaming women who turned down JS's proposition

married man propositioning a friends daughter or wife for marriage

 

In other words, if we took the practice of polygamy out of the equation, would you have a problem with these individual behaviors in and of themselves.

In isolation yes.  But I see more to the story than just those short statements. 

 

If Joseph lied to the entire church and society at large, what was the reason for it?  Perhaps he had a good reason for it.  Perhaps the benefits of being open about it was very small and the problems were numerous.  Would society have left him and the Church alone if he was opened.  Probably not so what benefit does it serve him to be open about it when society can't handle the truth.  I believe that if someone wants to know the truth, they have to be mature enough to handle it in an mature, reasonable way.   I do not believe making short statements like those accurate depicts the truth of what happened.  If Joseph lied to Emma, what was the reason for it?  How would have Emma reacted if he told her the truth.  Just saying "lying to a spouse" does not explain anything.

Edited July 22, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[HappyJackWagon]

In isolation yes.  But I see more to the story than just those short statements. 

 

If Joseph lied to the entire church and society at large, what was the reason for it?  Perhaps he had a good reason for it.  Perhaps the benefits of being open about it was very small and the problems were numerous.  Would society have left him and the Church alone if he was opened.  Probably not so what benefit does it serve him to be open about it when society can't handle the truth.  I believe that if someone wants to know the truth, they have to be mature enough to handle it in an mature, reasonable way.  

So I'm free to lie as long as I will benefit from it or if the person I'm lying to couldn't handle the truth anyway?

 

Sounds like moral relativism to me. If that's our standard should we apply it to all people?

Edited July 22, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[Joshua Valentine]

I accidentally gave you a rep point on this and can't figure out how to take it back. So I'll comment instead.

 

GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSnWOWEXyVg

It's ok HappyJackWagon, I think carbon dioxide's contribution is well worth a non-specific rep point or two.

[TheSkepticChristian]

I appreciate that perspective and I recognize that many people don't have a problem with polygamy

 

Not at all, there is nothing wrong with Polygamy. 

 

 

lying to a spouse

 

Yes, not telling Emma was a big mistake. 

 

 

lying to the entire church and society at large

 

No, because there were a lot of bigots that were going to persecuted him and the church. Remember the Salem Witch Trials? That is an example of how crazy religious fanatics can be. 

 

 

coercing young girls into marriage by creating fear of eternal damnation for them and their family

 

That is unacceptable, but where is the evidence? 

 

Bytheway, that happens for monogamous marriages, sometimes men tell women to marry them because God told them to do it. 

 

 

using older women to groom younger women for polygamy

 

LOL don't be dogmatist 

 

 

shaming women who turned down JS's proposition

 

 

That is not acceptable, but where is the evidence?

 

 

In other words, if we took the practice of polygamy out of the equation, would you have a problem with these individual behaviors in and of themselves.

 

What in the world is wrong with polygamy? I hope the Church returns to Polygamy. 

 

 

 

"To determine which things are the things that happened, you want contemporary accounts, things that are close to the time of the events themselves, and it helps if you have a lot of these accounts. The more the merrier! You want lots of contemporary accounts, and you want these accounts to be independent of one another. You don’t want different accounts to have collaborated with one another; you want accounts that are independently attesting the results. Moreover, even though you want accounts that are independent of one another, that are not collaborated, you want accounts that corroborate one another; accounts that are consistent in what they have to say about the subject. Moreover, finally, you want sources that are not biased toward the subject matter. You want accounts that are disinterested. You want lots of them, you want them independent from one another, yet you want them to be consistent with one another"  - Bart Ehrman 

[TheSkepticChristian]

GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSnWOWEXyVg

 

Edited July 22, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[carbon dioxide]

So I'm free to lie as long as I will benefit from it or if the person I'm lying to couldn't handle the truth anyway?

 

Sounds like moral relativism to me. If that's our standard should we apply it to all people?

Lying is not always bad.  Sometimes it might be required to prevent bad things from happening.  If you are lying to obtain personal reward from it than yes its wrong.  This is the way I see it. 

 

1.  Emma was against polygamy.  She wanted nothing to do with it

2.  Joseph was commanded by God to practice polygamy

 

So Joseph has some options

 

1.  He can offend God and place Emma above God and not practice polygamy

2.  He can divorce Emma and follow the commandment of God

3.  He can keep the commandment and hope that Emma would come around and lie to her in the meantime. 

4. He can tell Emma that he was going to practice polygamy regardless of her position and Emma and him would either have to leave him or be mad at him.  

 

Perhaps option 2 or 4 would have been better decisions but he did not choose those.  As an outsider living 175+ years after the fact, I give Joseph some slack because I don't know all the reasoning for his decisions.

 

I have a testimony of the restoration, Book of Mormon, ect and I so I don't throw everything in the trash can over personal issues involving Joseph Smith and others whom I have limited information on.  Before I make a judgement call on these things, I want to hear from Joseph Smith, Emma, and others involved in the Spirit World.  Until then I confess I don't know all the reasons and set the issue aside until I get the facts from the horses mouth.  I understand that some members are upset the Church does not cover these issues but in the end, none of it really matters.  If the restoration occurred, to blow ones eternal destiny up on it seems like a very dumb thing to do.

[Tacenda]

Lying is not always bad.  Sometimes it might be required to prevent bad things from happening.  If you are lying to obtain personal reward from it than yes its wrong.  This is the way I see it. 

 

1.  Emma was against polygamy.  She wanted nothing to do with it

2.  Joseph was commanded by God to practice polygamy

 

So Joseph has some options

 

1.  He can offend God and place Emma above God and not practice polygamy

2.  He can divorce Emma and follow the commandment of God

3.  He can keep the commandment and hope that Emma would come around and lie to her in the meantime. 

4. He can tell Emma that he was going to practice polygamy regardless of her position and Emma and him would either have to leave him or be mad at him.  

 

Perhaps option 2 or 4 would have been better decisions but he did not choose those.  As an outsider living 175+ years after the fact, I give Joseph some slack because I don't know all the reasoning for his decisions.

 

I have a testimony of the restoration, Book of Mormon, ect and I so I don't throw everything in the trash can over personal issues involving Joseph Smith and others whom I have limited information on.  Before I make a judgement call on these things, I want to hear from Joseph Smith, Emma, and others involved in the Spirit World.  Until then I confess I don't know all the reasons and set the issue aside until I get the facts from the horses mouth.  I understand that some members are upset the Church does not cover these issues but in the end, none of it really matters.  If the restoration occurred, to blow ones eternal destiny up on it seems like a very dumb thing to do.

Is using polygamy to get to heaven sort of like taking the Lord God's name in vain?  What of Jesus' sacrifice, to get to heaven?  Or is it just if we want to be exalted and create our own worlds?  The rest just stay in the telestial and terrestial worlds.  Is this what it all boils down to? 

Edited July 22, 2015 by Tacenda

[jkwilliams]

 

I had completely forgotten about this, but I looked up the quote and, you're right, I did dismiss it out of hand.

 

For those following along at home, here is the quote in question. The speaker is allegedly Alexander Doniphan, recalling on "a snowy evening during the winter of 1881–2" the events of 1838–39:

 

 

You are correct that my perspective on Joseph Smith prevents me from taking seriously dubious third-hand quotes that have him saying things like "I have got up this Mormon business" and "The best part of my life has been spent in this scheme."

 

You're right. Dubious source, indeed. 

[Joshua Valentine]

I understand that some members are upset the Church does not cover these issues but in the end, none of it really matters.  If the restoration occurred, to blow ones eternal destiny up on it seems like a very dumb thing to do.

 

I understand that you might have meant this last sentence from your own point of view and not in a generalization to all people who have issue with JS's polygamy practices. That, since you believe the restoration really happened based on something that is (assumed) independent of Joseph's behavior/integrity, Joseph's behavior and its evidence toward his integrity do not threaten your conclusion about the restoration, the LDS Church today, etc. If you did mean what you said as just describing yourself in this way, then ok, the following is not relevant tot your statement.

 

But, if you are declaring that people who have an issue with JS's behavior in relation to polygamy should not make a big deal about it because "Hey the restoration is true, so it doesn't matter", then you either seem to be missing the whole issue for these people or to be just arguing in a circle. There may be you who has independent belief in the restoration, and so you can allow JS to do anything and not have any doubt in the restoration. Others, however, see the restoration as being dependent upon Joseph Smith and his integrity. When, despite their sincere certainty that their church was honest with them, they find out their church was otherwise, then they realize they might be mistaken about other things - like their testimony, or other foundations for the actuality of the restoration. Thus, if they could be mistaken about their reasons for the restoration and if Joseph was less than reliable, then it is the restoration itself that comes into doubt.

 

People aren't just leaving what they believe is the Restoration and One True Church because they don't like polygamy. That would be ludicrous. They are finding themselves unsure of the actuality of the Restoration and the One True Church because of Joseph Smith's polygamy (and the LDS Church whose integrity they are seriously concerned about).

 

"Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground." Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, V.1, p.188.

[Thinking]

Lying is not always bad.

 

To be honest means to be sincere, truthful, and without deceit at all times. Honesty

[KevinG]

I had a BYU professor who decided to live a completely congruent life for a while as an experiment.  This meant he would not withhold opinion from anyone in any situation.  Total honesty was his goal. 

 

Shortly after the experiment started he was asked by a senior administration member what he thought of the administrator's wife's dress.

 

The experiment ended abruptly at that moment. 

[jkwilliams]

I had a BYU professor who decided to live a completely congruent life for a while as an experiment.  This meant he would not withhold opinion from anyone in any situation.  Total honesty was his goal. 

 

Shortly after the experiment started he was asked by a senior administration member what he thought of the administrator's wife's dress.

 

The experiment ended abruptly at that moment. 

 

So, a man hiding his sexual relationships from his wife is the same as sharing an opinion on a dress? 

[KevinG]

So, a man hiding his sexual relationships from his wife is the same as sharing an opinion on a dress? 

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

No.

[jkwilliams]

If God told me I had to marry more than one wife, I'd first ask for some guidelines. If, as with Joseph Smith, I was told I had to get my first wife's permission, I'd ask my wife. If she said no, I'd go back to the Lord and say, "I did what you asked, but she said no. Maybe you should talk to her." 

[KevinG]

If God told me I had to marry more than one wife, I'd first ask for some guidelines. If, as with Joseph Smith, I was told I had to get my first wife's permission, I'd ask my wife. If she said no, I'd go back to the Lord and say, "I did what you asked, but she said no. Maybe you should talk to her." 

 

It may have happened that way...

 

D&C 132:53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

 

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

 

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

 

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

 

...I'm not arguing that Joseph perfectly carried out the principle, but I am arguing that Emma was probably informed.  I suspect she and Joseph both struggled with accepting and living this law in its entirety.  The assumption that Joseph lied to Emma because they both struggled is not one I fully accept at face value.  The assumption that not giving Emma every intimate detail of those other relationships is a lie is also one I don't accept from the critics.  The supposition that the public should have known about it or Joseph is lying is just silly.

[jkwilliams]

It may have happened that way...

 

D&C 132:53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

 

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

 

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

 

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

 

...I'm not arguing that Joseph perfectly carried out the principle, but I am arguing that Emma was probably informed.  I suspect she and Joseph both struggled with accepting and living this law in its entirety.  The assumption that Joseph lied to Emma because they both struggled is not one I fully accept at face value.  The assumption that not giving Emma every intimate detail of those other relationships is a lie is also one I don't accept from the critics.  The supposition that the public should have known about it or Joseph is lying is just silly.

 

I think my wife would disagree that not sharing every intimate detail is the same as not telling her I've married and slept with other women. 

[KevinG]

I think my wife would disagree that not sharing every intimate detail is the same as not telling her I've married and slept with other women. 

 

That is a fallacy built on lots of assumptions about what Joseph did and how he did it.  

 

There is little evidence of Joseph's supposed intimate relationships with other women, or that if it occurred Emma was not privy to the situation.

 

Having never been a polygamist I'm not sure of the rules, but I do know that it was a very private thing among the early Saints, to the point that Brigham was chastised by a woman for asking about her children's father.

 

If you have read the Bushman accounts in Rough Stone Rolling you and I have drawn very different conclusions.  If you have not I recommend them.