mnn727 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Perhaps you are right. I blessed them every day of my life like any wife and mother. But where is the miracle I wanted to give?Miracles seldom happen, but when they do, you do not need the Priesthood to be a part of one. 4
Popular Post bluebell Posted July 5, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 5, 2015 Or..as the women I tried to talk to before I resigned,..they are not into deep doctrine. They just nod their head and say "yes."Can you see how snarky such a thing sounds?You don't want members to make stereotypical judgements on you but it's acceptable for you to do that to members?You can't have it both ways Jeanne. 8
Storm Rider Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Or..as the women I tried to talk to before I resigned,..they are not into deep doctrine. They just nod their head and say "yes." You have not met my wife, my sisters, or my daughter. In fact, is that you have only met individuals that don't agree with you and therefore you have branded them as unthinking women that only nod their head and say "yes"? Nice caricature, but not reality I suspect. 3
Jeanne Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I will leave this thread for all of you. Afterall, my feelings only matter to me. I will apologize for the snarkiness..it is only my truth. I apologize for being gushy and for wanting things both ways when all I wanted was for others to see my point of view. In some of your explanations ..that snarkiness is still there. Funny..you guys seem to get to have the conversation both ways. I wish now that my only reply from my beginning post was " I rest my case". 1
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Well, she said this: "Sadly, the Mormon faith has become a place that incentivizes the survival of the least fit. Since strict obedience is demanded and harshly enforced, only the least talented, least articulate, least nuanced thinkers, least likely to take a stand against abuse, and the least courageous people thrive in the Church today." Characterizing observant Latter-day Saints as "the least talented, least articulate, least nuanced thinkers, least likely to take a stand against abuse, and the least courageous" seems fairly condemnatory. Thanks, -SmacConsidering the undeniable skill and talent of President Nelson alone and his success in family, career, and church I think it's. Fairly obvious she is incorrect.And if she can't see that clearly, what else is she missing?
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I will leave this thread for all of you. Afterall, my feelings only matter to me. I will apologize for the snarkiness..it is only my truth. I apologize for being gushy and for wanting things both ways when all I wanted was for others to see my point of view. In some of your explanations ..that snarkiness is still there. Funny..you guys seem to get to have the conversation both ways. I wish now that my only reply from my beginning post was " I rest my case".Let's ignore the fact that "my truth" isn't just code for something that's not at all truth. Where does it say that it's okay to be rude if you are speaking the truth?We are told we should only speak with sharpness when influenced by the Holy Spirit. Not an easy task I admit. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the counsel.Nor does it explain why you expect miracles without faith? 1
Stone holm Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I think that stonehelm is confused about the definitions for moderate and fence sitter. Quite possibly, I get confused about a lot of things -- how about the definition of "lukewarm" and "moderate"?
bluebell Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Quite possibly, I get confused about a lot of things -- how about the definition of "lukewarm" and "moderate"? Moderate and lukewarm (and temperate, for that matter) have the same definition when it comes to heat, but there are obvious and glaring differences between those words when they are applied to other things. Lukewarm can mean the same thing as fence sitter, for example, but fence sitter and temperate would not generally be seen as being the equivalent of each other (even though lukewarm and temperate are synonyms in certain contexts). We know that Christ does not like people who are lukewarm. I doubt anyone would try to argue that that means He doesn't like people who are temperate. As used in the scriptures, lukewarm is someone who is ambivalent about the gospel. They know the difference between good and bad, but they embrace both equally (or reject both equally). They can't really decide which 'team' they want to play for. In terms of the gospel that is a bad thing because sin is obviously bad so a person can't embrace any of it and be in the right. As used in politics, a moderate is someone who does not believe in or support the excessive or extreme ends of the political spectrum. They believe in reasonable limits and embrace parts of each political ideology. In terms of the gospel, being a moderate is not a bad thing because neither conservative nor liberal ideology is bad so a person can embrace parts of both and still be in the right. A moderate feminist is someone who does not embrace the excessive or extreme aspects of feminism but does still believe and support the equality of women as they understand it. A moderate is not someone who can't decide whether or not they support feminism or who is ambivalent about feminism (those people certainly exist, but they are not moderates). That's why a moderate feminist is not the equivalent of a fence sitter. 3
Storm Rider Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I will leave this thread for all of you. Afterall, my feelings only matter to me. I will apologize for the snarkiness..it is only my truth. I apologize for being gushy and for wanting things both ways when all I wanted was for others to see my point of view. In some of your explanations ..that snarkiness is still there. Funny..you guys seem to get to have the conversation both ways. I wish now that my only reply from my beginning post was " I rest my case". What a kind example of your meaning, intentions and objectives. If this strategy of communicating with others works for you, then great. Go for it with both feet. I find that most people don't really want to find truth - except in the case of finding "my" truth i.e. not that it is true, but it is what "I" think and that is the only thing that matters in life - they don't want to know anything, but they are adamant that they only want to be with people who think exactly like they do without have to justify or support their position. Learning is not easy; learning truths is even more difficult because it comes at a cost of determining you may be wrong in your thinking. You also cannot learn if your head is buried in the sand while you repeat to yourself "I am right and 'they' are wrong".
Stone holm Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Moderate and lukewarm (and temperate, for that matter) have the same definition when it comes to heat, but there are obvious and glaring differences between those words when they are applied to other things. Lukewarm can mean the same thing as fence sitter, for example, but fence sitter and temperate would not generally be seen as being the equivalent of each other (even though lukewarm and temperate are synonyms in certain contexts). We know that Christ does not like people who are lukewarm. I doubt anyone would try to argue that that means He doesn't like people who are temperate. As used in the scriptures, lukewarm is someone who is ambivalent about the gospel. They know the difference between good and bad, but they embrace both equally (or reject both equally). They can't really decide which 'team' they want to play for. In terms of the gospel that is a bad thing because sin is obviously bad so a person can't embrace any of it and be in the right. As used in politics, a moderate is someone who does not believe in or support the excessive or extreme ends of the political spectrum. They believe in reasonable limits and embrace parts of each political ideology. In terms of the gospel, being a moderate is not a bad thing because neither conservative nor liberal ideology is bad so a person can embrace parts of both and still be in the right. A moderate feminist is someone who does not embrace the excessive or extreme aspects of feminism but does still believe and support the equality of women as they understand it. A moderate is not someone who can't decide whether or not they support feminism or who is ambivalent about feminism (those people certainly exist, but they are not moderates). That's why a moderate feminist is not the equivalent of a fence sitter. Well argued, gave you a bump on that. One might respond that he was specifically talking about beliefs, however, when he was talking about being "lukewarm" and beliefs in this particular case are often equated with politics, but aren't necessarily political. For example, I suspect there are people who would support women having some type of Priesthood or Priestesshood with the Relief Society basically being the Quorum. They might even argue that was the direction that Joseph Smith was headed in. But you made a very good argument.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Miracles seldom happen, but when they do, you do not need the Priesthood to be a part of one. I would submit that they happen more than we recognize but you are correct that you do not need the Priesthood to be a part of one. 1
smac97 Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Well, she said this: "Sadly, the Mormon faith has become a place that incentivizes the survival of the least fit. Since strict obedience is demanded and harshly enforced, only the least talented, least articulate, least nuanced thinkers, least likely to take a stand against abuse, and the least courageous people thrive in the Church today." Characterizing observant Latter-day Saints as "the least talented, least articulate, least nuanced thinkers, least likely to take a stand against abuse, and the least courageous" seems fairly condemnatory. Thanks, -Smac I also wonder if KK's deliberate and highly offense slur against . . . well, pretty much every observant Mormon may have been part of the reason for her departure from OW. It didn't exactly go over well: Here: One wonders where to begin. But that is perhaps because one is inarticulate and unable to think in a nuanced way. One is sorely tempted to resort to sarcasm and invective in response to these accusations. One cannot resist the temptation to note the values she mentions – talent, articulateness, intellectual prowess, courage and the propensity to stand against abuse. Admirable traits, all, especially the last two. The first three, however, strike me as relatively unimportant in the context of a Church, and seem to tell us much more about Kelly’s values than the state of the Church. No mention is made of faith. Or hope. Or charity. Or good works. Or virtue. Or selflessness. Or service. Here: Kate Kelly recently expressed her regard for the remarkably intelligent intrepid members of the Ordain Women movement who make the Church their spiritual home, as well as the other members of the Church that she loves ... I am willing to take a stand against abuse, starting with this very article and including Dehlin and his antics. I am grateful for Ward and Stake leaders who take the courageous stand to protect the Church from abusive bullies like Kelly and Dehlin, who would point the finger of scorn at those joyfully partaking of the fruit of the gospel. Here: Though the statement alienated some LDS supporters, Kelly stands by it. “It was taken as an insult to all active members, but it was intended as more of a statement about the institution.” Here: As one of the untalented, inarticulate, nuance-free, abuse-tolerating cowards who remains in the church, I obviously have no standing to answer this charge. Which, ultimately, is Kelly’s purpose here. Once you accept her premise that all Mormons are knuckle-dragging Neanderthals, you can save yourself the aggravation of listening to anything they have to say. Here: If you're an active, faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are content with your membership in the Church, are happy to sustain Church leaders, willingly keep your covenants, and aren't on a feminist crusade to tear down the patriarchy at any cost, then Kate Kelly has a message for you. ... Yes, you read that correctly. If you're an active member who hasn't hitched your wagon to Kelly's Ordain Women movement, or if you're otherwise not some kind of dissident, you're untalented, inarticulate, unnuanced, and complicit in (the patriarchy's?) unspeakable abuses. Oh, and if you're not actively "seek[ing] change," you don't have a conscience. ... In all seriousness, this piece by Kelly has to be one of the most condescending, preachy, inaccurate, deranged, smug, and self-righteous articles I have encountered in recent memory. Oh, and it is breathtakingly insulting. Kelly's utter and brazen contempt for her erstwhile fellow Saints (to say nothing of Church leaders) reveals her true colors. Here: I’m not sure what Kelly hopes to gain by trying to insult the general membership of the Church, but I can assure you that most members will see it as just sad. And seeing as how similar ploys didn’t work for her, I seriously doubt that more public shaming of the Church (or us) will change anything about another’s Church discipline. Here: I think this is where feminists get the most flack - when they want preferential treatment in not being held accountable for offensive things because men aren't held as accountable. That seems to undermine the ultimate goal of equality. Thanks, -Smac 1
Mystery Meat Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 This was on her Facebook wall. She is such a tender person. A true victim.
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 This was on her Facebook wall. She is such a tender person. A true victim.But she isn't at all in apostasy 2
Storm Rider Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 This was on her Facebook wall. She is such a tender person. A true victim. Such a sensitive soul; I can understand now how the evil actions of those terrible men in high places affected her so deeply. When one is so tender it does not take much to be wounded by the unkind, thoughtless words of others. I will pray for her that she might be protected from all the bad men in the world. I am just too distraught to write more.
JLHPROF Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 This was on her Facebook wall. She is such a tender person. A true victim. Anyone who takes their understanding of correct gospel doctrine and principle from someone that would post something like that is completely deceived.She is no role model. She is no authority. There is no spirit of truth in her or her teachings. 4
Avatar4321 Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 Anyone who takes their understanding of correct gospel doctrine and principle from someone that would post something like that is completely deceived.She is no role model. She is no authority. There is no spirit of truth in her or her teachings.It's interesting that human nature is such that those who seek to have authority in the way we tend to do so would disqualify themselves from it even if we could ordain them. 2
Popular Post Stargazer Posted July 8, 2015 Popular Post Posted July 8, 2015 Perhaps you are right. I blessed them every day of my life like any wife and mother. But where is the miracle I wanted to give? Where is the miracle I wanted to give? My SIDS granddaughter, my stepmother, my own wife who has perhaps 2 months left. The Lord withheld the miracle while allowing the comfort, despite all I myself wanted and still want. Your prayer of blessing can be as powerful as a priesthood blessing, for it is in Christ's name. But the will of the Lord is paramount, and His purposes shall roll on until all His promises are fulfilled (Mormon 8:22; Isaiah 55:8,9). Don't ask from the Lord what the Lord does not want to or cannot give. I want to give birth. Fat chance I'm going to get that anytime soon. Talk about privilege. 5
strappinglad Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I'm tearing up over all this. Note: both meanings apply.
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) http://mormonstories.org/kristy-money/ Good interview with current OW board member, Kristy Money. Currently listening to the second podcast, thought I'd share although I know there are some JD dislikers out there. At least he seems to have a few good podcasts more to share. ETA: Wait, she's not only a member of OW, but one of the founding mothers, haha. Edited July 8, 2015 by Tacenda
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 This was on her Facebook wall. She is such a tender person. A true victim. I almost lol'd. I give her a sold 2 for effort. In order for something to be funny there has to be some elements of truth. She got all of it wrong. Hopefully her new job is not in comedy as she is not funny at all.
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 It is not an original idea to her...iirc this first came out several years ago. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 It is not an original idea to her...iirc this first came out several years ago.Oh, in that case she gets a 0.
Teancum Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Where is the miracle I wanted to give? My SIDS granddaughter, my stepmother, my own wife who has perhaps 2 months left. The Lord withheld the miracle while allowing the comfort, despite all I myself wanted and still want. Your prayer of blessing can be as powerful as a priesthood blessing, for it is in Christ's name. But the will of the Lord is paramount, and His purposes shall roll on until all His promises are fulfilled (Mormon 8:22; Isaiah 55:8,9). Don't ask from the Lord what the Lord does not want to or cannot give. I want to give birth. Fat chance I'm going to get that anytime soon. Talk about privilege.So prayer is really a waste of time as is a priesthood blessing. If God's will is penultimate and God knows the beginning to the end our prayers make no difference. Your post reinforces that.
Teancum Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 http://mormonstories.org/kristy-money/ Good interview with current OW board member, Kristy Money. Currently listening to the second podcast, thought I'd share although I know there are some JD dislikers out there. At least he seems to have a few good podcasts more to share. ETA: Wait, she's not only a member of OW, but one of the founding mothers, haha.I predict she is the next to get the court of love boot out the door.
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