Leadership Adoration

[stemelbow]

Some call it leadership worship. I don't know worship works, even if sometimes the fawning goes so far that it feels like worship. I don't know that's ever anyone's intent.

So this is interesting to me. The other day, in discussing with some ex-LDS friends one thing they mentioned as their most troubling aspect of the Church is this leadership adoration. They suggested leadership are men, humans, and though they try to be good, just like everyone else, they probably shouldn't be treated like they are in the church--with such fawning. I tend to agree.

I wish we all, in the church, treated each other, even those out of the Church, as well as we treat the leadership. Respect is important for everyone. I wish I could look at everyone with the type of respect many in the Church look at the leaders.

If we Mormons were better at treating everyone as we do the leadership. there'd be no distinction to be made in how we treat leaders. No one could reasonably claim we worship our leaders.

Edited June 30, 2015 by stemelbow

[Nevo]

If we Mormons were better at treating everyone as we do the leadership. there'd be no distinction to be made in how we treat leaders. No one could reasonably claim we worship our leaders.

 

I don't know. I think I'd get tired rising to my feet every time someone walked into the chapel.

[filovirus]

God doesn't appoint just anyone help direct His church. They are not "just like everyone else". I surely hope they (prophets and apostles) have bypassed many of the errors I make on a daily basis. I do believe there should be a reverence for them. Question: Do your friends believe Peter, James, and John were "just like everyone else"? What about Moses, Isaiah, or Adam? Nephi, Alma, or Mormon?

 

I do think "adoration" goes too far, but of course ex-LDS would use terms that were unfavorable to support their opinion.

[Gray]

God doesn't appoint just anyone help direct His church. They are not "just like everyone else". I surely hope they (prophets and apostles) have bypassed many of the errors I make on a daily basis. I do believe there should be a reverence for them. Question: Do your friends believe Peter, James, and John were "just like everyone else"? What about Moses, Isaiah, or Adam? Nephi, Alma, or Mormon?

 

I do think "adoration" goes too far, but of course ex-LDS would use terms that were unfavorable to support their opinion.

 

What's this idea based on? 

[stemelbow]

I don't know. I think I'd get tired rising to my feet every time someone walked into the chapel.

I tend to stand until the meeting starts anyway, I figure. my problem is I'm gabbing that whole time.

[The Nehor]

I respect the office and the keys. I might also respect the holder but that usually only happens if I know them.

[strappinglad]

For some reason there is a tendency among humans to create a cult of personality. We have rock stars and sports stars and royalty etc. Why we elevate the worthy and the unworthy to " god " status I don't know. Perhaps there is someone out there that would turn me into a screaming little 13 year old girl, but so far I haven't met them.

I suspect that most of the Brethren are uncomfortable with their special treatment, but it does play into the human need for recognition so there is a 2 edged sword involved.

[Kenngo1969]

So what, specifically, do you see as manifestations of the problem?  Praise to the Man?  Others' mileage may vary, but, while I know Joseph Smith was far from perfect, if it hadn't been for the sacrifices he and his contemporaries made, I would have neither the Book of Mormon nor the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ as a whole (and I hate to think where I would be without them).  We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet?  Other than the opening couple of lines, the rest of that hymn, to the best of my recollection, is dedicated to thanking the Lord for all of the blessings He has given us.  Everybody else in the room standing when an Apostle or General Authority enters?  Most all people in those positions had to lead exemplary lives in order to get there, and (with the caveat that placing too much trust in any human being can be dangerous), generally, I have no problem looking to those examples or encouraging others to do so.  As The Nehor says, I revere the office and the keys, if not the man.

 

Bottom line?  If one has a testimony that these people (including non-Priesthood-holding general officers) are called of God and are led by Him, the respect I show them is an extension of the respect I show Him.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

In response to someone who "whined and moaned" on the Board awhile back about the level of obedience expected by leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (if not by the Church of Jesus Christ, and if not by Christ himself ... he posted a list of idiosyncratic "rules" under which he chafes), I posted the following, and it seems relevant to this discussion:

 

If I didn’t believe that my leaders are earnestly striving to live up to the commission and mantle that has been placed upon their shoulders, I would worry an awful lot about 95 percent of the things on that list.  Admittedly, that mantle and that commission are huge, and I believe they know it (see the last clause of Doctrine & Covenants 1:38).  If I thought they were in it because of pride, or to get the praise of men or the glory of the world, I would worry (see Doctrine & Covenants 121:34-36).  If I didn’t believe they occupy the positions they’re in to serve rather than to be served, I would worry (see Matthew 23:11).    I would worry if I didn’t think I could gain my own testimony of what God wants me to do (see John 17:7).  And I would worry if I didn’t think they really have my best interests at heart.

 

Now, having said all of this, do I always understand all of the reasons why God, through His Prophets and His Other Servants, asks me to do what He asks me to do?  No.  Just as Adam told the angel who asked him if he knew why he offered sacrifices, sometimes I simply have to say, “I know not, save the Lord commanded me” (Moses 5:6).  I simply have to say, as the Lord told Isaiah, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).  I simply have to say, as did Nephi, “I know not the meaning of all things.  Nevertheless, I know that God loveth His children” (1 Nephi 11:17).

 

How significant would it be, in the grand scheme of things, if I were (for example) to wear an earring?  Would God love me any less?  I don’t think so.  But I also know that “out of small things proceedeth that which is great” (Doctrine & Covenants 64:33), and that “by small means the Lord can bring about great things” (1 Nephi 16:29).  God’s love and His trust are two very different things.  I had a mission president who used to say, “God loves everyone; He trusts only a few.”  If someone is content to receive God’s love, there isn’t a whole lot he needs to do to get it.  God’s trust, however, is a very different thing.  Does God trust me?  Not as much as I’d like Him to—yet.  But I don’t want God simply to be able to love me; I also want Him to be able to trust me.  The first is free; the second is earned.  One day, I would like God to be able to say to me, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.  Thou hast been faithful over a few (small) things.  I will make thee ruler over many things.  Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” (Matthew 25:23).

 

Bottom line?  As I’ve said before, the only thing I have left to give to God that He didn’t give me first is My Will.

 

Edited June 30, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Jeanne]

Some call it leadership worship. I don't know worship works, even if sometimes the fawning goes so far that it feels like worship. I don't know that's ever anyone's intent.

So this is interesting to me. The other day, in discussing with some ex-LDS friends one thing they mentioned as their most troubling aspect of the Church is this leadership adoration. They suggested leadership are men, humans, and though they try to be good, just like everyone else, they probably shouldn't be treated like they are in the church--with such fawning. I tend to agree.

I wish we all, in the church, treated each other, even those out of the Church, as well as we treat the leadership. Respect is important for everyone. I wish I could look at everyone with the type of respect many in the Church look at the leaders.

If we Mormons were better at treating everyone as we do the leadership. there'd be no distinction to be made in how we treat leaders. No one could reasonably claim we worship our leaders.

I know that I am not perfect..never have been.  I feel that others are not perfect either but that being said, in my younger days of girlhood I relished the words of the apostles.  Paul H. Dunn was going to speak at my High School graduation in 1974 but took ill and was unable to be there...disappointed?? Yeah!!  I, too, could feel the spirit  of those conference talks and some of the 12 now were at the beginnings of apostlehood when I so adored and admired them.  You could not be a good LDS girl in my ward unless those apostles and the prophet was put on a pedistle.  This goes for the past.  I thought many moons ago that the "Work and the Glory" book series were at leased based on truth.  Oh..I loved Joseph Smith..surely Brigham Young was from the same stock to lead the way he did with his own admiration of Brother Joseph. ...Just imagine my disappointment of reading the Miracle of Forgiveness..of finding out the particulars of MMM..and seeing firsthand the blacks receiving the Priesthood and the changes for the reason why,,I think I lived in a fairy tale..perhaps my own fault..but I have more respect for those leaders that smile and shake my hand as a non-mormon.  I am apt to think that Jesus would still shake my hand...I have been shunned by family so I have a hard time with admiration of a lot of the church leaders anymore.  This is no iddisrespect to mormons in general.  My heart sometimes breaks for the many who will go through what I did. 

 

Worship should be reserved for God or whatever you ultimate belief is.  Man...not so much.  You can admire a lot of people without worship, 

[Calm]

they probably shouldn't be treated like they are in the church--with such fawning. I tend to agree.

I wish we all, in the church, treated each other, even those out of the Church, as well as we treat the leadership.

 

So we shouldn't be showing the leadership the treatment we should be giving the rest of the world?

[JLHPROF]

God doesn't appoint just anyone help direct His church. They are not "just like everyone else".

 

This. ^^

I know many don't agree, but the idea that all are equal is false.

God is the head.  Christ answers to him.  Apostles answer to Christ.

I do place Joseph Smith next in line right beneath the Savior.  He wasn't perfect, but he is the head of this dispensation and to me that is far more than just another man.

 

I firmly believe we will be judged by all our priesthood heads - starting with those with immediate priesthood stewardship over us, going up the chain until we reach our Savior and our Heavenly Father.

No, we are definitely not all the same.

[Ahab]

Some call it leadership worship. I don't know worship works, even if sometimes the fawning goes so far that it feels like worship. I don't know that's ever anyone's intent.

So this is interesting to me. The other day, in discussing with some ex-LDS friends one thing they mentioned as their most troubling aspect of the Church is this leadership adoration. They suggested leadership are men, humans, and though they try to be good, just like everyone else, they probably shouldn't be treated like they are in the church--with such fawning. I tend to agree.

I wish we all, in the church, treated each other, even those out of the Church, as well as we treat the leadership. Respect is important for everyone. I wish I could look at everyone with the type of respect many in the Church look at the leaders.

If we Mormons were better at treating everyone as we do the leadership. there'd be no distinction to be made in how we treat leaders. No one could reasonably claim we worship our leaders.

I tend to agree about the no fawning idea, too. That's over the top. I can't even see myself fawning over our Savior, either, and I think he would also feel uncomfortable if I did, or if anyone else did, although he would handle it graciously and not want to make anyone who did fawn over him feel uncomfortable about their own fawning. It's not an insult, you know. It's just a sign that they really really really really like who they are fawning over. Like a puppy dog does when he hasn't been with his master for a while.

[KevinG]

Whatever respect we show to our church leaders pales in comparison to the false notions of inerrancy and prophetic perfection so many Christians ascribe to biblical prophets and apostles.  Unfortunately some LDS do this to our dead and living leaders too.

 

But standing for a dignitary, or treating them with respect is not worship, and cannot seriously be interpreted as such by an unbiased observer.  We would do the same for a head of state, religious leaders, or other prominent figures.  If we had any manners left in our culture we would still do it as women entered rooms.

 

This concern trolling about LDS appearing to worship leaders is an interesting contrast with what I saw someone link to my Facebook today coming from John Dehlin.  Pure mockery and insults.  The "agree to disagree" sure turned to mocking insults fast with him.

[Gray]

This. ^^

I know many don't agree, but the idea that all are equal is false.

God is the head.  Christ answers to him.  Apostles answer to Christ.

I do place Joseph Smith next in line right beneath the Savior.  He wasn't perfect, but he is the head of this dispensation and to me that is far more than just another man.

 

I firmly believe we will be judged by all our priesthood heads - starting with those with immediate priesthood stewardship over us, going up the chain until we reach our Savior and our Heavenly Father.

No, we are definitely not all the same.

 

“I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous"  - Joseph Smith Jr

[KevinG]

“I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous"  - Joseph Smith Jr

 

...and he had nothin' on the Old Testament prophets when it came to shenanigans.

[JLHPROF]

“I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous"  - Joseph Smith Jr

 

You are confusing righteous with position.  Not the same thing.

Joseph Smith wasn't the most righteous man other than the Savior necessarily (the scriptures hint that may have been John the Baptist).  But that doesn't change his position in priesthood authority.

[JLHPROF]

...and he had nothin' on the Old Testament prophets when it came to shenanigans.

 

Glad to see you back.  You don't swing by nearly often enough.

[KevinG]

Glad to see you back.  You don't swing by nearly often enough.

 

Life has been interesting.  But thank you.  I'll update in the Social Hall a bit.

[Calm]

Never mind...off topic 

Edited June 30, 2015 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

Can't remember where, but I recently heard a story told by one GA about how, soon after he was called, another GA told him that he would start to notice the members treating him differently.  He told him "Appreciate it, but don't breathe it."

 

I thought that was probably apt advice, and I suspect that most GA's are able to mentally separate the respect most LDS have for the calling as opposed to it being all about them.  

 

When it comes to how the members feel about the GA's though, all bets are off.  When Elder Ballard visited my mission in the early 90's, we were reminded not to ask him to autograph our scriptures.  The thought had never occurred to me, and it showed me how some members might see the GAs a little differently than I do.

Edited June 30, 2015 by cinepro

[Tacenda]

I notice this happening with leaders such as bishops too. But I think a lot of it is because those callings affect them in a way that change them to be more Christlike. I remember a bishop that I had once that use to teach Gospel Doctrine. He was so cocky, and some members didn't care much for him. Some may have wondered about inspiration when he was called. But my opinion changed as he showed service and love to the members of his ward/flock.

[Duncan]

Can't remember where, but I recently heard a story told by one GA about how, soon after he was called, another GA told him that he would start to notice the members treating him differently.  He told him "Appreciate it, but don't breathe it."

 

I thought that was probably apt advice, and I suspect that most GA's are able to mentally separate the respect most LDS have for the calling as opposed to it being all about them.  

 

When it comes to how the members feel about the GA's though, all bets are off.  When Elder Ballard visited my mission in the early 90's, we were reminded not to ask him to autograph our scriptures.  The thought had never occurred to me, and it showed me how some members might see the GAs a little differently than I do.

 

Pres. Faust telling then Elder Uchtdorf to "don't inhale"

[cinepro]

Pres. Faust telling then Elder Uchtdorf to "don't inhale"

 

That was it:

 

When I was called as a General Authority, I was blessed to be tutored by many of the senior Brethren in the Church. One day I had the opportunity to drive President James E. Faust to a stake conference. During the hours we spent in the car, President Faust took the time to teach me some important principles about my assignment. He explained also how gracious the members of the Church are, especially to General Authorities. He said, “They will treat you very kindly. They will say nice things about you.” He laughed a little and then said, “Dieter, be thankful for this. But don’t you ever inhale it.”

 

 

Pride and the Priesthood, President Uchtdorf October 2010

[strappinglad]

We LDS are really going to have to up our " fawning " , if we wish to compete with what the Romans did for their triumphal Generals. We are WAY to subdued !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_triumph