JAHS Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I remember when President Lee visited our mission and after the meeting he went to the back to greet all the missionaries. There was a big crowd around him with all kinds of cameras clicking as if he were some kind of rock star. He remarked "How are all you elders able to afford all these cameras?" There are people whose personalities tend to cause then to act as though they are "worshiping" a church leader. I think most church leaders learn to expect it and handle it without letting it go to their heads. They understand that it's mostly the position that the members are honoring ("worshiping") rather than them personally. 1
KevinG Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 We LDS are really going to have to up our " fawning " , if we wish to compete with what the Romans did for their triumphal Generals. We are WAY to subdued !https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_triumph When Boyd K Packer successfully invades Rome and takes the Vatican for the Mormons, we will throw him a parade. 2
CV75 Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Some call it leadership worship. I don't know worship works, even if sometimes the fawning goes so far that it feels like worship. I don't know that's ever anyone's intent.So this is interesting to me. The other day, in discussing with some ex-LDS friends one thing they mentioned as their most troubling aspect of the Church is this leadership adoration. They suggested leadership are men, humans, and though they try to be good, just like everyone else, they probably shouldn't be treated like they are in the church--with such fawning. I tend to agree.I wish we all, in the church, treated each other, even those out of the Church, as well as we treat the leadership. Respect is important for everyone. I wish I could look at everyone with the type of respect many in the Church look at the leaders.If we Mormons were better at treating everyone as we do the leadership. there'd be no distinction to be made in how we treat leaders. No one could reasonably claim we worship our leaders.I think anyone who encourages and enjoys fawning is not a true leader, and those who fawn are respecters of men.
Bobbieaware Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) I know that I am not perfect..never have been. I feel that others are not perfect either but that being said, in my younger days of girlhood I relished the words of the apostles. Paul H. Dunn was going to speak at my High School graduation in 1974 but took ill and was unable to be there...disappointed?? Yeah!! I, too, could feel the spirit of those conference talks and some of the 12 now were at the beginnings of apostlehood when I so adored and admired them. You could not be a good LDS girl in my ward unless those apostles and the prophet was put on a pedistle. This goes for the past. I thought many moons ago that the "Work and the Glory" book series were at leased based on truth. Oh..I loved Joseph Smith..surely Brigham Young was from the same stock to lead the way he did with his own admiration of Brother Joseph. ...Just imagine my disappointment of reading the Miracle of Forgiveness..of finding out the particulars of MMM..and seeing firsthand the blacks receiving the Priesthood and the changes for the reason why,,I think I lived in a fairy tale..perhaps my own fault..but I have more respect for those leaders that smile and shake my hand as a non-mormon. I am apt to think that Jesus would still shake my hand...I have been shunned by family so I have a hard time with admiration of a lot of the church leaders anymore. This is no iddisrespect to mormons in general. My heart sometimes breaks for the many who will go through what I did. Worship should be reserved for God or whatever you ultimate belief is. Man...not so much. You can admire a lot of people without worship,You are correct when you say the leaders of the church should not be put up on a pedestal (an allusion to idolatrous worship) but I wonder how many here remember that the apostle Paul said GOD himself placed the living apostles and prophets at both FOUNDATION and at the HEAD of the Church, and that without these officers standing at the helm of leadership the Church of Christ would cease to exist. It seems to me that in consideration of the overriding importance of their positions, and the tremendous sacrificial labor associated with their callings, that these people should be shown all due REVERENCE (a word often used in the New Textament to describe how the saints should treat and think of one another) as the living oracles of God. To do otherwise is tantamount to showing insult and disrespect to God himself. Edited June 30, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
CV75 Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 That was it:Yes, be grateful for being treated very kindly and having nice things said… as opposed to being treated badly and spoken evil of; don’t inhale that, either! 3
Calm Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I think anyone who encourages and enjoys fawning is not a true leader, and those who fawn are respecters of men.I think a lot of "fawners" just feel the need to be part of something bigger than they are a little too strongly. Sometimes it just takes a little more thought and experience in life to break the habit. 1
KevinG Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I met Boyd K Packer at BYU one time. As we lined up to shake his hand I faced him I was very excited. Not because I worshiped him, but because I knew the opportunity to say hello was a rare one, and I wanted to present my best to this authority figure. When it was my turn in the receiving line I babbled incoherently. He politely shook my hand, smiled, and said "nice to meet you." Sister Packer just smiled.
Deborah Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 What some of the critics don't understand is that these men have paid their dues. They have already served many years in the church at the local level and when called as Apostles they are giving their whole lives to gospel service. I think that is deserving of respect and there is a big difference between respect and so called "fawning." People have a tendency today to use words that do not represent the actual reality. Years ago at a celebration in Nebraska, Pres. Hinckley was present. Several of us were waiting for him to come out of the building on the grounds to the outside podium. As Pres. and Sis. Hinckley came out with their entourage, the crowd immediately and spontaneously started singing "We Thank Thee Oh God for a Prophet." It wasn't a matter of worship but feeling the spirit of that occasion and the presence of a much loved prophet. Pres. Hinckley as always was humble and delighted to see the people. Before Pres. Hinckley became prophet he spent many years in service as an Apostle and dedicated his life to that calling. I think that is worthy of some deference. How many of us are even willing to do that. 3
CV75 Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I think a lot of "fawners" just feel the need to be part of something bigger than they are a little too strongly. Sometimes it just takes a little more thought and experience in life to break the habit.Definitely. The quote from President Faust reminds me of the young Bill Clinton fitting in with his college peers appearance-wise while privately acknowledging his upbringing to not fully partake of the doobie. President Faust seems to allow that admiration can be a gateway drug, and while being publicly gracious about it so as to enjoy a proper atmosphere, to privately distance oneself from it.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I think it's important to differentiate between "meeting" and fawning. There's a difference. In the mid-'80s, the visiting authority at a Stake Conference I attended was Elder Theodore M. Burton. I was in the midst of a four-surgical-operations-in-twenty-seven-months odyssey, and I think I was in a wheelchair. I don't recall much about the specifics of the substance of our conversation, but he asked me about my challenges. Cognizant of the value of his time in the middle of a bunch of people who wanted (and/or needed) to speak with him at least as much as I did, I endeavored to give him the Reader's Digest Condensed Version, but even the abridged version took several minutes. Fortunately, I'd finally started to put two failed operations behind me and had at least one additional successful one to that point, so I'd started to turn a long-hoped-for corner. He listened attentively and offered some kindly words of encouragement. Just food for thought. 3
Damien the Leper Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I'd treat Monson with same attitude and respect as I would the people in the library, the nursery or the grocery store clerk.
sunstoned Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 God doesn't appoint just anyone help direct His church. They are not "just like everyone else". I surely hope they (prophets and apostles) have bypassed many of the errors I make on a daily basis. I do believe there should be a reverence for them. Question: Do your friends believe Peter, James, and John were "just like everyone else"? What about Moses, Isaiah, or Adam? Nephi, Alma, or Mormon? I do think "adoration" goes too far, but of course ex-LDS would use terms that were unfavorable to support their opinion.You are right. the top 15 are appointed from a pool of mormon royalty families. Most of them are related to each other through several lines. Before anyone does a CFR, please read Michael Quinn's Mormon hierarchy: Extensions of Power. In this book he maps all the family lines and how all the top people are related. These family ties extend past the church hierarchy and extend into not only church owned businesses, but into all areas of Utah business.
Tom m Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I need to get 25 post so that I can post some awesome bom evidence
The Nehor Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I got evidence ancient metal plates No one cares you horrible spammer.
Nevo Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 No one cares you horrible spammer. The good news is, it will be a short post. 1
Calm Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I need to get 25 post so that I can post some awesome bom evidenceGo post in the three word story if you are in a hurry...but please have it make 'sense' to the storyline, not just random comments. Otherwise you are risking getting banned by spamming the main forum. (not a mod, but have seen how they respond to just upping the count posts) Edited July 1, 2015 by calmoriah
JLHPROF Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I'd treat Monson with same attitude and respect as I would the people in the library, the nursery or the grocery store clerk. I agree with treating Monson the person the same.But I treat the office of prophet with much more reverence that the guy on the street. I may respect them, love them, and want a Christlike attitude towards them. But they do not (that I know of) hold a priesthood office I consider sacred.
Damien the Leper Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I agree with treating Monson the person the same.But I treat the office of prophet with much more reverence that the guy on the street. I may respect them, love them, and want a Christlike attitude towards them. But they do not (that I know of) hold a priesthood office I consider sacred.I would be the same to the president or the pope. Their office means little to me.
Avatar4321 Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I know that I am not perfect..never have been. I feel that others are not perfect either but that being said, in my younger days of girlhood I relished the words of the apostles. Paul H. Dunn was going to speak at my High School graduation in 1974 but took ill and was unable to be there...disappointed?? Yeah!! I, too, could feel the spirit of those conference talks and some of the 12 now were at the beginnings of apostlehood when I so adored and admired them. You could not be a good LDS girl in my ward unless those apostles and the prophet was put on a pedistle. This goes for the past. I thought many moons ago that the "Work and the Glory" book series were at leased based on truth. Oh..I loved Joseph Smith..surely Brigham Young was from the same stock to lead the way he did with his own admiration of Brother Joseph. ...Just imagine my disappointment of reading the Miracle of Forgiveness..of finding out the particulars of MMM..and seeing firsthand the blacks receiving the Priesthood and the changes for the reason why,,I think I lived in a fairy tale..perhaps my own fault..but I have more respect for those leaders that smile and shake my hand as a non-mormon. I am apt to think that Jesus would still shake my hand...I have been shunned by family so I have a hard time with admiration of a lot of the church leaders anymore. This is no iddisrespect to mormons in general. My heart sometimes breaks for the many who will go through what I did. Worship should be reserved for God or whatever you ultimate belief is. Man...not so much. You can admire a lot of people without worship,The miracle of forgiveness caused you disappointment? Seriously? What was it about learning of Christ amazing gift to us that was so disappointing?
The Nehor Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 I would be the same to the president or the pope. Their office means little to me.A lot of people say this. Very few mean it.Humans are hard wired to recognize authority and it is difficult to disentangle ourselves from this tendency even when we dislike the authority. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 A lot of people say this. Very few mean it.Humans are hard wired to recognize authority and it is difficult to disentangle ourselves from this tendency even when we dislike the authority. It's the old separation of God "Denieth none that come to him" vs "noble and great ones I will make my leaders". Until we recognize that both can be true and aren't contradictory we will always have a challenge separating them.
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