Are We In Hell?

[Alan]

When I joined the church 40 years ago, something I learned worried me a little and it has never gone away.

It goes something like this:

Lucifer rebelled against God and was thrust down to hell.

Lucifer and his followers are here on earth.

Therefore (I concluded), this must be hell.

 

I know this appears to be very simplistic. However, in the temple we are told this is the telestial kingdom. I have always considered the telestial kingdom to be the equivalent of hell. Don't know why, just something I picked up in my youth.

 

Why on earth would anyone choose to come to live in a telestial world? It's so bad it was thought an appropriate place to send Lucifer and his devils. Yet here we are.

I just can't believe any of us are here by choice, meaning we chose to come here, rather than as a result of our choices.

I understand about receiving a body etc, but that could have been done in a terrestrial world (it will be during the millennium).

So, my thinking goes, we must have done something really bad in order to end up here as opposed to another place. We are in a telestial hell surrounded by and outnumbered by demons, and for most of us this is very unpleasant.

 

Just wondered if anyone out there has similar thoughts, or can hopefully persuade me that this nagging suspicion I've had for 40 years is unfounded. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by Alan

[The Nehor]

We came because we knew it would be a short weekend trip and then done. Probably figured we could put up with anything for a short stint as long as we get to rule the Universe afterwards.

[JLHPROF]

 

Why on earth would anyone choose to come to live in a telestial world?

 

Without opposition of darkness we would have lost our agency (Satan's plan) to choose light over darkness.  There must be opposition in all things.  Don't forget, it was a heavenly environment that Lucifer led 1/3 part away.  Spending time in a Terrestrial or Celestial sphere is no guarantee against falling.  We must be made strong through opposition.

 

President Heber C. Kimball said:

 

You are talking about heaven and about earth, and about hell, &c.; but let me tell you, you are in hell now, and you have got to qualify yourselves here in hell to become subjects for heaven; and even when you have got into heaven, you will find it right here where you are on this earth. When we escape from this earth, we suppose we are going to heaven? Do you suppose you are going to the earth that Adam came from? That Eloheim came from? Where Jehovah the Lord came from? No. When you have learned to become obedient to the Father that dwells upon this earth, to the Father and God of this earth, and obedient to the messengers He sends—when you have done all that, remember you are not going to leave this earth. You will never leave it until you become qualified, and capable, and capacitated to become a father of an earth yourselves. Not one soul of you ever will leave this earth, for if you go to hell, it is on this earth; and if you go to heaven, it is on this earth; and you will not find it anywhere else.

 

He also said something about this being the only hell he expects to ever experience, but I couldn't find the exact quote.

 

 

I have always considered the telestial kingdom to be the equivalent of hell. Don't know why, just something I picked up in my youth.

D&C 76:106 (Speaking of the Telestial) These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

[Storm Rider]

A trial of faith to allows us to be joint heirs with Jesus; is it of any value?  

[Alan]

JLHPROF,

Thanks for finding the Heber J Kimball quote. I find it a little confusing, but he did say we "are in hell now". That seems to support my worries.

Therefore, my question is... why?

Why are we in hell? What did we do to deserve this?

Surely we didn't choose this. Therefore, it must be a punishment.

 

There are obviously terrestrial worlds into which we could have been born. Indeed the earth will be one of these during the millennium. Are we really saying that these terrestrial born children will be at a disadvantage because they weren't born into a place with greater opposition (ie. no devil)?

That seems to be a poor argument.

 

I have really struggled to get my head around this but am finding it hard not to conclude this is a punishment and not a reward. Why else would we be required to share this piece of real estate with Lucifer?

[Gray]

The answer for Michiganders is a definitive yes

[ERayR]

JLHPROF,

Thanks for finding the Heber J Kimball quote. I find it a little confusing, but he did say we "are in hell now". That seems to support my worries.

Therefore, my question is... why?

Why are we in hell? What did we do to deserve this?

Surely we didn't choose this. Therefore, it must be a punishment.

 

There are obviously terrestrial worlds into which we could have been born. Indeed the earth will be one of these during the millennium. Are we really saying that these terrestrial born children will be at a disadvantage because they weren't born into a place with greater opposition (ie. no devil)?

That seems to be a poor argument.

 

I have really struggled to get my head around this but am finding it hard not to conclude this is a punishment and not a reward. Why else would we be required to share this piece of real estate with Lucifer?

 

To rise above all things one must first descend below them.

[bluebell]

JLHPROF,

Thanks for finding the Heber J Kimball quote. I find it a little confusing, but he did say we "are in hell now". That seems to support my worries.

Therefore, my question is... why?

Why are we in hell? What did we do to deserve this?

Surely we didn't choose this. Therefore, it must be a punishment.

 

There are obviously terrestrial worlds into which we could have been born. Indeed the earth will be one of these during the millennium. Are we really saying that these terrestrial born children will be at a disadvantage because they weren't born into a place with greater opposition (ie. no devil)?

That seems to be a poor argument.

 

I have really struggled to get my head around this but am finding it hard not to conclude this is a punishment and not a reward. Why else would we be required to share this piece of real estate with Lucifer?

 

Why don't you believe that we chose it?  The doctrine of the church is that we very much did choose to come here.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The Kimball quote sound sorta Multiple Mortal Probations-like.

[Duncan]

I just had KFC for lunch so I am enjoying things now

[Ahab]

When I joined the church 40 years ago, something I learned worried me a little and it has never gone away.

It goes something like this:

Lucifer rebelled against God and was thrust down to hell.

Lucifer and his followers are here on earth.

Therefore (I concluded), this must be hell.

I know this appears to be very simplistic. However, in the temple we are told this is the telestial kingdom. I have always considered the telestial kingdom to be the equivalent of hell. Don't know why, just something I picked up in my youth.

Why on earth would anyone choose to come to live in a telestial world? It's so bad it was thought an appropriate place to send Lucifer and his devils. Yet here we are.

I just can't believe any of us are here by choice, meaning we chose to come here, rather than as a result of our choices.

I understand about receiving a body etc, but that could have been done in a terrestrial world (it will be during the millennium).

So, my thinking goes, we must have done something really bad in order to end up here as opposed to another place. We are in a telestial hell surrounded by and outnumbered by demons, and for most of us this is very unpleasant.

Just wondered if anyone out there has similar thoughts, or can hopefully persuade me that this nagging suspicion I've had for 40 years is unfounded.

Considering how many of Satan's followers are here, and supposedly even Satan homself, I can somewhat understand why you would consider this place to be a very bad place. But that's really just about the people who are here. The place itself is actually a very nice place.

And I don't think I actually chose to come here, or at least not necessarily. I figure I was just sent here for not rebelling against our Father in heaven, with the added bonus being of possibly attaining more glory than Satan.

[Mormonmaniac]

When I joined the church 40 years ago, something I learned worried me a little and it has never gone away.

It goes something like this:

Lucifer rebelled against God and was thrust down to hell.

Lucifer and his followers are here on earth.

Therefore (I concluded), this must be hell.

 

I know this appears to be very simplistic. However, in the temple we are told this is the telestial kingdom. I have always considered the telestial kingdom to be the equivalent of hell. Don't know why, just something I picked up in my youth.

 

Why on earth would anyone choose to come to live in a telestial world? It's so bad it was thought an appropriate place to send Lucifer and his devils. Yet here we are.

I just can't believe any of us are here by choice, meaning we chose to come here, rather than as a result of our choices.

I understand about receiving a body etc, but that could have been done in a terrestrial world (it will be during the millennium).

So, my thinking goes, we must have done something really bad in order to end up here as opposed to another place. We are in a telestial hell surrounded by and outnumbered by demons, and for most of us this is very unpleasant.

 

Just wondered if anyone out there has similar thoughts, or can hopefully persuade me thae sit this nagging suspicion I've had for 40 years is unfounded.

I can assure you we are not in hell. This telestial earth may have some dark moments but we can and do experience a myriad of heavenly blessings here on earth as we live worthily to receive.

[Alan]

Considering how many of Satan's followers are here, and supposedly even Satan homself, I can somewhat understand why you would consider this place to be a very bad place. But that's really just about the people who are here. The place itself is actually a very nice place.

And I don't think I actually chose to come here, or at least not necessarily. I figure I was just sent here for not rebelling against our Father in heaven, with the added bonus being of possibly attaining more glory than Satan.

That I can just about understand.

However, it was even nicer before Lucifer showed up. In fact it was described as very good by the creator himself.

If we had already defeated Satan once, why come here and try to do it all over again?

You know, the more I consider this, the more ridiculous the "party line" seems to be.

Someone mentioned multiple mortal probations. Although that concept fills me with apprehension (I do not want another mortal life - the very thought is horrific), it does make more sense to me.

[JLHPROF]

Why are we in hell? What did we do to deserve this?

Surely we didn't choose this. Therefore, it must be a punishment.

 

I reject the reward/punishment model of God.  I don't believe he works on a reward punishment basis according to the teachings of Joseph Smith and scripture.

[Boanerges]

I think we each absolutely and knowingly chose to come here as part of our progression. As part of the plan coming to earth is necessary. This is a step up in our progression, not a step down.

[Boanerges]

I reject the reward/punishment model of God.  I don't believe he works on a reward punishment basis according to the teachings of Joseph Smith and scripture.

 

I reject this as well. I'm not sure how the idea crept into our common teachings (but I can guess it has to do with some scriptures perhaps taken out of context).

[bluebell]

That I can just about understand.

However, it was even nicer before Lucifer showed up. In fact it was described as very good by the creator himself.

 

 

Something can be 'very good' but not very good for us all the time.

 

For example, a baby in the womb (of a loving mother) is the safest it will ever be.  It does not know hunger.  It does not know thirst.  It is never cold or hot, never afraid, never alone.  The womb, for a time, is very very good.  In fact, it's necessary.  However, that only lasts for 10 months.  A baby who is not born by 42 weeks runs the risk of being injured by the environment of the womb in fact.  It becomes dangerous.  The womb, after too long, can kill it.

 

Besides be dangerous, the womb is limiting.  A baby can only progress so much in the womb before all progression stops.  It would be cruel to make a baby live in that environment forever.  There is no growth, after a certain point, in the womb.

 

That's why birth is celebrated, even knowing that birth is painful and frightening for the baby, and even knowing that the baby will be guaranteed to experience sadness, pain, and discomfort after it's born.  All who purposefully have children believe that the chance for happiness and growth outweighs the inevitable problems and trials of mortality.

 

Growth is worth it.

Edited June 26, 2015 by bluebell

[california boy]

Without opposition of darkness we would have lost our agency (Satan's plan) to choose light over darkness. There must be opposition in all things. Don't forget, it was a heavenly environment that Lucifer led 1/3 part away. Spending time in a Terrestrial or Celestial sphere is no guarantee against falling. We must be made strong through opposition.

President Heber C. Kimball said:

He also said something about this being the only hell he expects to ever experience, but I couldn't find the exact quote.

D&C 76:106 (Speaking of the Telestial) These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

Well this certainly explains the whole global warming thing

[The Nehor]

That I can just about understand.

However, it was even nicer before Lucifer showed up. In fact it was described as very good by the creator himself.

If we had already defeated Satan once, why come here and try to do it all over again?

You know, the more I consider this, the more ridiculous the "party line" seems to be.

Someone mentioned multiple mortal probations. Although that concept fills me with apprehension (I do not want another mortal life - the very thought is horrific), it does make more sense to me.

Because while he did lose he demanded a vote recount and we are here in case we want to use this opportunity to change our minds. I would stick with your premortal party line. Pure joy and cosmic galactic power both sound nice.

[JLHPROF]

I reject this as well. I'm not sure how the idea crept into our common teachings (but I can guess it has to do with some scriptures perhaps taken out of context).

 

It's a throwback to the old "Heaven and Hell" division so prevalent in most traditional Christian religions.

[JLHPROF]

The Kimball quote sound sorta Multiple Mortal Probations-like.

 

Oh, no, not MMP...is that you reincarnated Mr. Harmston?

[JLHPROF]

Interestingly the resurrection of the wicked at the end of mortality when compared with:

 

"D&C 76:106 (Speaking of the Telestial) These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;"

 

Since we are already in a Telestial world, perhaps "being thrust down to hell" for the telestial beings has reference to remaining in the grave on this earth till the end rather than being sent somewhere else.

Just as in the temple all people are required to pass through a Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial state, perhaps hell is just being stuck in the Telestial - Damned/Dammed (progression delayed) as it were.

[Ahab]

That I can just about understand.

However, it was even nicer before Lucifer showed up. In fact it was described as very good by the creator himself.

If we had already defeated Satan once, why come here and try to do it all over again?

You know, the more I consider this, the more ridiculous the "party line" seems to be.

Someone mentioned multiple mortal probations. Although that concept fills me with apprehension (I do not want another mortal life - the very thought is horrific), it does make more sense to me.

I think we're always going to be confronting evil people, wherever we go. Even our Father had to confront Satan, again, in the garden of Eden after he had messed with Adam/Michael, again, when he told him to depart from his presence, again. Just enjoy where you are wherever you go.

[Rivers]

Yeah we're in Hell. Some more so than others.

[JAHS]

The refiner's fire may feel like hell sometimes but if we endure to the end the results can be heavenly.