The Nehor Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 As long as everyone can distinguish between "emotion" and "the spirit", there shouldn't be a problem.Good luck with that. I cannot always do it.
cinepro Posted June 24, 2015 Author Posted June 24, 2015 In trek reenactments liberties are taken with history to mash up some representative events of the period together. The leaders told the youth this before it started.Are you one of those people who goes to Rennaisance fairs and points out anachronisms? Perhaps oddly, I don't have a similar problem with Pioneer Day activities where people dress up in pioneer garb and bob for apples and make corn-husk dolls and such. I don't think there's anything wrong with learning about and honoring our (literal or spiritual) ancestors in this way. It only becomes uncomfortable for me when it moves beyond a learning or entertaining experience to an attempt at a spiritual experience. A young woman crying at the death and burial of her (fake) baby (doll) on a pioneer trek is no more "real" than me crying when Chuck Noland loses his best friend Wilson in the sea. If I were to take the priests to LaserTag and beforehand explain to them that this laser battle represents the battle of Crooked River in the Mormon War, and afterward we had a testimony meaning where the Priests shared what they learned, and how they felt the spirit when their teammates "died" from laser fire, it would be no stupider than what regularly occurs on a pioneer trek. Only more obvious. 2
The Nehor Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 Perhaps oddly, I don't have a similar problem with Pioneer Day activities where people dress up in pioneer garb and bob for apples and make corn-husk dolls and such. I don't think there's anything wrong with learning about and honoring our (literal or spiritual) ancestors in this way. It only becomes uncomfortable for me when it moves beyond a learning or entertaining experience to an attempt at a spiritual experience. A young woman crying at the death and burial of her (fake) baby (doll) on a pioneer trek is no more "real" than me crying when Chuck Noland loses his best friend Wilson in the sea. If I were to take the priests to LaserTag and beforehand explain to them that this laser battle represents the battle of Crooked River in the Mormon War, and afterward we had a testimony meaning where the Priests shared what they learned, and how they felt the spirit when their teammates "died" from laser fire, it would be no stupider than what regularly occurs on a pioneer trek. Only more obvious.I disagree. Roleplay is a good way of reliving the past. When they cry over their fake baby they are empathize no with those who lost children. In the same way Mormon's lament for his slain people means less to me then it did to him as I did not know them. If I imagine myself as a Nephite or replace the dead in my mind with those I care about I begin to understand what he was feeling.I think these kinds of things can be overdone but I like roleplay. It is simple fun and occasionally teaches something. I was at a geopolitical roleplaying game years ago and, acting as a Russian general, touched off World War 3 while trying to force Iran to back down. At first planning it was fun but then I had a moment of realization on remembering all the Cold War military documents I have looked at and how casually some of them ached for a chance to play war and see what happens. My first real glimpse of Cold War fear came when I was their worst nightmare personified as I targeted enemy silos and political centers for a first strike knockout blow. It was a strange experience. Oh, I won by the way. I just do not see anything wrong with manufacturing a set of circumstances designed to try to bring about such realizations. It is not a deception. They know it is not real. They are at least in theory voluntary participants. 1
The Nehor Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 What did you win?The war.Our first strike followed by our boomer second strike turned the United States into more of a radioactive wasteland then they did to Russia....by a small margins.The sweet smell of victory and charred bodies.
ksfisher Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 The war.Our first strike followed by our boomer second strike turned the United States into more of a radioactive wasteland then they did to Russia....by a small margins.The sweet smell of victory and charred bodies. I was wondering if you got a prize or a ribbon or something like that, like they give out to the winners of real wars. Too bad it wasn't more realistic.
The Nehor Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 I was wondering if you got a prize or a ribbon or something like that, like they give out to the winners of real wars. Too bad it wasn't more realistic.Oh, yeah, I think I got a gift card or something.
Okrahomer Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) Just when I thought I'd seen it all, this is apparently a thing:http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/06/23/treks-mobs-and-spiritual-escalation/Sometimes I think I understand the range of stupidity found in the Church, and then something like this comes along and I realize there are greater idiots in the Church than even I could have imagined (start at 12:20 in the video):My wife and I were in charge of our Youth Trek 4 years ago. We had training from the fulltime missionary couple who (as I recall) had Church-wide responsibility to oversee all Youth Trek activities. Their training included very specific instructions about two activities that could NOT (under any circumstances) be included in our planning: One of those was to have people dress in white to represent deceased family members; and the other was to have an anti-Mormon mob attack us.The person who did the explaining (a former Stake President from Florida), used a lot of good sense and humor to explain why these activities had been banned. I know the time stamp on the link indicates 2012, but the training we had was clear back in 2011; so I'm really surprised the Tucson West Stake Trek planners got away with this. Edited June 25, 2015 by Okrahomer 2
ksfisher Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) The person who did the explaining (a former Stake President from Florida), used a lot of good sense and humor to explain why these activities had been banned. I know the time stamp on the link indicates 2012, but the training we had was clear back in 2011; so I'm really surprised the Tucson West Stake Trek planners got away with this. I don't think local leaders are always aware of guidelines like this. I've never heard of full time missionaries who oversee youth treks. With leadership turnover and the infrequency of youth treks in general I'm not surprised that things would get forgotten or never communicated in the first place? Out of curiosity, what was they explanation you received for no mob attacks? edited to add: Perhaps I've never heard of the no mob attack rule because a mob attack has never been on our stakes youth trek agendas to start with. Edited June 24, 2015 by ksfisher
Okrahomer Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I don't think local leaders are always aware of guidelines like this. I've never heard of full time missionaries who oversee youth treks. With leadership turnover and the infrequency of youth treks in general I'm not surprised that things would get forgotten or never communicated in the first place? Out of curiosity, what was they explanation you received for no mob attacks? edited to add: Perhaps I've never heard of the no mob attack rule because a mob attack has never been on our stakes youth trek agendas to start with. We were told that we should aim for historical accuracy--and that there had not been any "anti-Mormon mob attacks" on the handcart company's. That was the main reason. He also indicated that in at least some instances where this activity had been done, it had caused some unnecessary trauma for some of the kids. Edit to add: He shared a really very funny story about his own former stake--in Florida--where this very activity had been done and approved by him. And yes, I agree it's likely that local leaders aren't always aware of the guidelines. We held our trek at one of the Mormon Heritage Sites--so, that probably explains the kind of training we received. I did notice that LDS.org does have links to some guidelines and one of those does mention the prohibition against having people dress in white to represent deceased family members; however, I still don't see the "mob" issue raised there. Edited June 24, 2015 by Okrahomer
Storm Rider Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 It makes sense to me to strive for historical accuracy. I could see having a mob attack the saints prior to beginning a trek with an explanation of the challenges the saints endured in Nauvoo and Missouri. Then briefly move through the period of Joseph's death and martyrdom and then moving into the period of treks to the Salt Lake Valley. There is no need to confuse issues and getting the events into some degree of chronological accuracy would prevent this unneeded confusion. Doesn't seem like a big problem, but something that could be corrected easily. Whether the youth have treks where these types of events are re-enacted or not is up to the local stake(s).
ERayR Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 Perhaps oddly, I don't have a similar problem with Pioneer Day activities where people dress up in pioneer garb and bob for apples and make corn-husk dolls and such. I don't think there's anything wrong with learning about and honoring our (literal or spiritual) ancestors in this way. It only becomes uncomfortable for me when it moves beyond a learning or entertaining experience to an attempt at a spiritual experience. A young woman crying at the death and burial of her (fake) baby (doll) on a pioneer trek is no more "real" than me crying when Chuck Noland loses his best friend Wilson in the sea. If I were to take the priests to LaserTag and beforehand explain to them that this laser battle represents the battle of Crooked River in the Mormon War, and afterward we had a testimony meaning where the Priests shared what they learned, and how they felt the spirit when their teammates "died" from laser fire, it would be no stupider than what regularly occurs on a pioneer trek. Only more obvious. Cinepro I do not often agree with you but when you are right . . . 1
Jeanne Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 It is emotional manipulation. I am not sure what is wrong with that. Most of our entertainment is designed to manipulate emotion.This is, I believe, very true. This experience for some will make so they expect the spirit..the HG will speak calm for the faith in prayer. But in reality it is a ploy that uses fear (again) to tighten the hold of the church.
The Nehor Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 This is, I believe, very true. This experience for some will make so they expect the spirit..the HG will speak calm for the faith in prayer. But in reality it is a ploy that uses fear (again) to tighten the hold of the church.First you acknowledge that it can bring the Spirit but then fear monger about how it is calculated to cause fear at the same time. Which is it? Do you really believe teenagers went home from the trek and cowered in their beds in fear of what happened on the trek? Do you really believe local leaders are actively planning to traumatize kids as a "ploy"? Did you think what you are saying through at all? 2
Senator Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I think you mean you do not like being covertly emotionally manipulated by those seeking gain or being manipulated without assent. No one likes those. If you truly hated anything that manipulated your emotions you would shun your family, flee from music, never watch a movie, never compete in athletics, or even read a book.People who go on a pioneer trek at least in theory want an experience and want it to be an emotional one so I say we let them have it. I agree. Let them have it. I guess it is just a matter of personality differences. I really dislike most role playing. Edited June 24, 2015 by Senator
Calm Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I don't mind dressing up for an afternoon, but to role play...yeah, I would dislike that. I would rather not go to a party than endure having to do charades. Outside of the discomfort...I have to admit I am obsessed with being able to sleep and always have been since teen years when I started figuring out I had real problems with it...I wouldn't have fun. If I could handle the physical side of it, I would just prefer doing it hiking and camping. They were great experiences for me at times and quite meaningful, adding a layer of "let's pretend" would actually take away from that. My son had some wonderful experiences through scouts, I did though a school class, then there is tons of family stuff I did as a youth...why not push kids to expand themselves through doing things that relate to their experiences now so that they may do it again. It is highly unlikely that anyone will go on another Pioneer Trek (unless they become youth leaders) while they might continue to rock climb or do other outdoor things like that. I see better ways to teach history. However, I also admit that others might not feel the same way and it may open some kids' understanding in ways that traditional learning or visits to museums and research does not. I just wish the point was made over and over that they are only getting a glimpse of what was gone through. For example, going without deodorant is kind of meaningless because the absence is only meaningful to a culture that had it, it isn't meaningful to someone who was used to stronger body smells and not washing clothes as often, etc. That would be something that is presented as a hardship in many cases that really wouldn't have been. Edited June 24, 2015 by calmoriah 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) I just do not see anything wrong with manufacturing a set of circumstances designed to try to bring about such realizations. It is not a deception. They know it is not real. They are at least in theory voluntary participants.If the planned manipulation causes the person to feel threatened enough to feel the need for prayer or a blessing, then it oversteps the boundaries of legitimate spiritual experience and moves into the realm of tempting the Spirit. For example, intentionally providing insufficient rations or water, or purposefully creating a dangerous situation, and then suggesting prayer for strength to continue is beyond propriety. I would resent that imposition on my self, and would strenuously object to it being done to my child. Edited June 26, 2015 by Bernard Gui 1
Tacenda Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 First you acknowledge that it can bring the Spirit but then fear monger about how it is calculated to cause fear at the same time. Which is it? Do you really believe teenagers went home from the trek and cowered in their beds in fear of what happened on the trek? Do you really believe local leaders are actively planning to traumatize kids as a "ploy"? Did you think what you are saying through at all?I think there can be several in any group leadership that can be led astray by one bad egg. They.were taken in to believe wrong things and in turn may have emotionally harmed some of the youth. I believe it's only going to get worse, the techniques to keep the youth in the church from straying. Testimonials are one big emotional manipulation when the youth were taught young that the warm feeling is the HG. 1
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 . If the planned manipulation causes the person to feel threatened enough to feel the need for parayer or a blessing, then it oversteps the boundaries of legitimate spiritual experience and moves into the realm of tempting the Spirit. For example, intentionally providing insufficient rations or water, or purposefully creating a dangerous situation, and then suggesting prayer for strength to continue is beyond propriety. I would resent that imposition on my self, and would strenuously object to it being done to my child.If your youth are stupid enough to feel genuinely threatened by a mob made up of their youth leaders and bishoprics and actually believe a mob attack is occurring on a fake trek such that they would not realize that prayers for deliverance are just part of the game then I agree they should not have a trek. You may want to do a puppet show or finger painting instead or something more on their level. 1
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I think there can be several in any group leadership that can be led astray by one bad egg. They.were taken in to believe wrong things and in turn may have emotionally harmed some of the youth. I believe it's only going to get worse, the techniques to keep the youth in the church from straying. Testimonials are one big emotional manipulation when the youth were taught young that the warm feeling is the HG.If your youth are that delicate that events on a fake trek leave lasting emotional scars then you should not take them on trek. You probably should not let them outside either.Oh, and the Holy Ghost often does communicate through what could be described as warm feelings. Testimonies are not emotional manipulation unless they are faked. 1
cinepro Posted June 25, 2015 Author Posted June 25, 2015 My wife and I were in charge of our Youth Trek 4 years ago. We had training from the fulltime missionary couple who (as I recall) had Church-wide responsibility to oversee all Youth Trek activities. Their training included very specific instructions about two activities that could NOT (under any circumstances) be included in our planning:One of those was to have people dress in white to represent deceased family members; and the other was to have an anti-Mormon mob attack us.The person who did the explaining (a former Stake President from Florida), used a lot of good sense and humor to explain why these activities had been banned. I know the time stamp on the link indicates 2012, but the training we had was clear back in 2011; so I'm really surprised the Tucson West Stake Trek planners got away with this. Gotta say, it's good to hear that. I honestly hope that one day, these treks will be replaced with a more conventional hike or backpacking trip. I've been on many hikes, backpacking trips and camp outs with Scouts (both as a youth and adult) where real experiences led to real teaching moments and spiritual experiences. I never felt the need to create scenarios or "role play" to elicit spiritual growth. 4
Gray Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) If your youth are stupid enough to feel genuinely threatened by a mob made up of their youth leaders and bishoprics and actually believe a mob attack is occurring on a fake trek such that they would not realize that prayers for deliverance are just part of the game then I agree they should not have a trek. You may want to do a puppet show or finger painting instead or something more on their level. Those without kids of their own so often take this kind of hard line stance. Edited June 25, 2015 by Gray
Kenngo1969 Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I'd like to participate. Can I be Porter Rockwell?
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Those without kids of their own so often take this kind of hard line stance.I would guess 99%+ of those planning for and organizing these treks have children and they very often have children going on the trek too. I hardly think my "hard line stance" is unique to childless people. Parents have proven they can have sex and survive childbirth (the first can be done by any idiot and the second is mostly luck and mostly safe due to improved healthcare). It does not convey some kind of supernal wisdom I have been cut off from. Good parents are worthy of respect and worth learning from but if you are trying to convince me that having a child conveys special insight good luck. I have known far too many parents.
ksfisher Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Those without kids of their own so often take this kind of hard line stance. I think all four of my children are bright enough to know the difference between a real Mormon attacking mob and a bunch of their leaders dressed up as such. That being said, I don't think that a fake mob attack would be something I'd recommend for my stake. Seems a bit too much. 1
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