bluebell Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Gotta say, it's good to hear that.I honestly hope that one day, these treks will be replaced with a more conventional hike or backpacking trip. I've been on many hikes, backpacking trips and camp outs with Scouts (both as a youth and adult) where real experiences led to real teaching moments and spiritual experiences. I never felt the need to create scenarios or "role play" to elicit spiritual growth.Have you been able to do trek as well, but just didn't think the experience was worth anything?
Gray Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) It does not convey some kind of supernal wisdom I have been cut off from. Good parents are worthy of respect and worth learning from but if you are trying to convince me that having a child conveys special insight good luck. I have known far too many parents. Yes, that's what I used to think, too. But you cannot understand parenting until you are a parent. Being a parent doesn't automatically make you a good one, of course. But it's still 99% experiential knowledge. Edited June 25, 2015 by Gray
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Yes, that's what I used to think, too. But you cannot understand parenting until you are a parent. Being a parent doesn't automatically make you a good one, of course. But it's still 99% experiential knowledge.Which still does not explain why parenting the ******* son I refuse to acknowledge or contact would somehow make me wary of sending him on a Pioneer Trek.
ERayR Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I think all four of my children are bright enough to know the difference between a real Mormon attacking mob and a bunch of their leaders dressed up as such. That being said, I don't think that a fake mob attack would be something I'd recommend for my stake. Seems a bit too much. I don't know. I too often hear from those who have gone on a trek "now I know what the pioneers went through". By walking 20 miles and getting hungry in no way gives that kind of insight. 2
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I don't know. I too often hear from those who have gone on a trek "now I know what the pioneers went through". By walking 20 miles and getting hungry in no way gives that kind of insight.No, it doesn't but is that a problem?the first time God afflicted me with serious remorse for my many sins I compared it to Alma the Younger in the mental torment I endured. Was it the same? Not really. I was not in a coma. I had not been leading the children of God to destruction but the analogy still held even if I did exaggerate it in the moment.I doubt most of the teens saying it genuinely believed it. It is a comment borne of empathy and a shared experience (even if much of the experiences are different) but they know the pioneers did not walk for just a few days and did not bury babies made out of flour.
Gray Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Which still does not explain why parenting the ******* son I refuse to acknowledge or contact would somehow make me wary of sending him on a Pioneer Trek. It's a mystery. But I'm off to go explain why childbirth isn't such a big deal to some moms. BRB
ERayR Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 No, it doesn't but is that a problem?the first time God afflicted me with serious remorse for my many sins I compared it to Alma the Younger in the mental torment I endured. Was it the same? Not really. I was not in a coma. I had not been leading the children of God to destruction but the analogy still held even if I did exaggerate it in the moment.I doubt most of the teens saying it genuinely believed it. It is a comment borne of empathy and a shared experience (even if much of the experiences are different) but they know the pioneers did not walk for just a few days and did not bury babies made out of flour. I guess it probably isn't.
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 It's a mystery. But I'm off to go explain why childbirth isn't such a big deal to some moms. BRB I respect people going through the pain but generally they do not have a choice at that point. I sympathize. I often get kidney stones which I am told is close to the same thing though some women say childbirth is worse and some say kidney stones are worse. It is the only time I have experienced pain so intense I was afraid I was not going to die. I even named my kidney stone children and if the experience is similar wonder why just-born children are not also given profane obscenities as names. 2
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) If your youth are stupid enough to feel genuinely threatened by a mob made up of their youth leaders and bishoprics and actually believe a mob attack is occurring on a fake trek such that they would not realize that prayers for deliverance are just part of the game then I agree they should not have a trek. You may want to do a puppet show or finger painting instead or something more on their level.So, there is a fake attack, and then fake prayers. That's even worse. Were they advised beforehand that there would be a "fake" attack, or did it come out of nowhere? That would be awful, IMO. I have had several of my own children go on treks, and when I learned that the leaders had contrived dangerous experiences to cause stress so they would feel the need to pray or seek blessings, I stopped supporting the treks. I do not believe we should participate in that kind of emotional manipulation. Fake or not. Edited June 26, 2015 by Bernard Gui
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 So, there is a fake attack, and then fake prayers. That's even worse. Why? Were they advised beforehand that there would be a "fake" attack, or did it come out of nowhere? That would be awful, IMO. Probably came out of nowhere. IMO not awful. I have had several of my own children go on treks, and when I learned that the leaders had contrived stressful experiences to cause stress so they would feel the need to pray or seek blessings, I stopped supporting the treks. I do not believe we should participate in that kind of emotional manipulation. Fake or not. Congratulations I guess. Just do not ruin it for everyone else.
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) If your youth are that delicate that events on a fake trek leave lasting emotional scars then you should not take them on trek. You probably should not let them outside either.Oh, and the Holy Ghost often does communicate through what could be described as warm feelings. Testimonies are not emotional manipulation unless they are faked.I do not believe testimonies are gained by having fake experiences where fake stress leads to fake prayers and fake priesthood blessings and fake healing. To me that is a mockery of the Priesthood and sacred ordinances. When the youth bear testimony that the Spirit answered their prayers in the manipulation, I believe we have done them a grave disservice. Edited June 26, 2015 by Bernard Gui
Scott Lloyd Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I do not believe testimonies are gained by having fake experiences where fake stress leads to fake prayers and fake priesthood blessings and fake healing. To me that is a mockery of the Priesthood and sacred ordinances. When the youth bear testimony of that the Spirit answered their prayers in the manipulation, I believe we have done them a grave disservice. I'm thinking this sort of stuff could be chalked up to zeal without knowledge. It's the same sort of thing as teaching contrived and anachronistic history, such as telling the youth that the girls will have to go it alone now, because the men have been called out to join the Mormon Battalion. The Mormon Battalion episode occurred roughly 10 years before the handcarts, and the Salt Lake Valley hadn't even been settled then. I lose patience with such ignorance. If you're going to put on one of these things, read some basic history. 3
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Why? Probably came out of nowhere. IMO not awful. Congratulations I guess. Just do not ruin it for everyone else.Because it mocks the true nature of prayer. And if the kids are scared by being awakened at night by adults pretending to be a mob out to kill them....and they did not know beforehand that that was part of the roleplaying, had no idea who the attackers were in the dark, and genuinely felt they were being assaulted....and they truly prayed for help in real fear, shame on the adults for brainwashing the children. Manipulation is ugly even in the name of whatever this would be in the name of, certainly not in the name of Jesus. I don't believe pointing out the egregious manipulation of planned "spiritual" experience ruins it for anyone....expect, hopefully, those who think it is a great idea. 2
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Gotta say, it's good to hear that. I honestly hope that one day, these treks will be replaced with a more conventional hike or backpacking trip. I've been on many hikes, backpacking trips and camp outs with Scouts (both as a youth and adult) where real experiences led to real teaching moments and spiritual experiences. I never felt the need to create scenarios or "role play" to elicit spiritual growth. Or replaced with meaningful and significant service projects. 1
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I do not believe testimonies are gained by having fake experiences where fake stress leads to fake prayers and fake priesthood blessings and fake healing. To me that is a mockery of the Priesthood and sacred ordinances. When the youth bear testimony of that the Spirit answered their prayers in the manipulation, I believe we have done them a grave disservice. I admit I would be weirded out if one of the youth testified that their prayers drove off the fake mob made up of the local Young Men's Presidency but I have my doubts that this is happening.
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I don't know. I too often hear from those who have gone on a trek "now I know what the pioneers went through". By walking 20 miles and getting hungry in no way gives that kind of insight.My great-great-grandfather and grandmother were in the Martin Company. Two little girls froze to death one night in their group. In the morning when they tried to bury them in the frozen ground, they discovered the girls had gnawed the flesh off their fingers because of their extreme hunger. Nothing on a youth trek even comes close. I have too much awe and respect for what they did to trivialize it with contrived difficulties that make the youth want to pray for deliverance. 2
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Because it mocks the true nature of prayer. And if the kids are scared by being awakened at night by adults pretending to be a mob out to kill them....and they did not know beforehand that that was part of the roleplaying, had no idea who the attackers were in the dark, and genuinely felt they were being assaulted....and they truly prayed for help in real fear, shame on the adults for brainwashing the children. Manipulation is ugly even in the name of whatever this would be in the name of, certainly not in the name of Jesus. I don't believe pointing out the egregious manipulation of planned "spiritual" experience ruins it for anyone....expect, hopefully, those who think it is a great idea. So now it is taking place in the middle of the night where they are woken from a sound sleep and terrorized? Never heard of that happening on a trek. Does it or is this made up as an extreme to vilify church leaders?
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I admit I would be weirded out if one of the youth testified that their prayers drove off the fake mob made up of the local Young Men's Presidency but I have my doubts that this is happening.I have my doubts about the whole idea of contriving spiritual experiences. 3
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 My great-great-grandfather and grandmother were in the Martin Company. Two little girls froze to death one night in their group. In the morning when they tried to bury them in the frozen ground, they discovered the girls had gnawed the flesh off their fingers because of their extreme hunger. Nothing on a youth trek even comes close. I have too much awe and respect for what they did to trivialize it with contrived difficulties that make the youth want to pray for deliverance. I agree, maybe if we put in a week of starvation in the trek it would be more authentic? This is ridiculous. On one hand you are accusing them of going "too far" and on the other hand you want to point out how "unlike the real thing it is". I doubt your ancestors are insulted by our youth treks or believe it is being trivialized. Calling in respect for the dead is a weak defense. Do you do that about Renn faires? Battle reenactments? Film sets of historical films? Just say you hate trek and move on and everyone who enjoys it will continue to do so. You are like the fat kid who doesn't want to play soccer with the rest of the kids so spends his time coming up with reasons the game is stupid.
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) So now it is taking place in the middle of the night where they are woken from a sound sleep and terrorized? Never heard of that happening on a trek. Does it or is this made up as an extreme to vilify church leaders?Post #5. osted 2 days agobluebell, on 23 Jun 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:I'm not going to watch a 40 minute video to figure out what you're referring to. Care to summarize? CInepro: While on a Pioneer Trek Re-Enactment, adult leaders dressed as mobsters and shooting guns (presumably loaded with blanks) "attack" the camp in the middle of the night. The youth then hide, pray, sing hymns etc. in an effort to find (fake) protection from the (fake) mob. Edited June 26, 2015 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Comment deleted. Edited June 26, 2015 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) I agree, maybe if we put in a week of starvation in the trek it would be more authentic? This is ridiculous. On one hand you are accusing them of going "too far" and on the other hand you want to point out how "unlike the real thing it is". I doubt your ancestors are insulted by our youth treks or believe it is being trivialized. Calling in respect for the dead is a weak defense. Do you do that about Renn faires? Battle reenactments? Film sets of historical films? Just say you hate trek and move on and everyone who enjoys it will continue to do so. You are like the fat kid who doesn't want to play soccer with the rest of the kids so spends his time coming up with reasons the game is stupid.I have absolutely no animus towards trek......except when the leaders (whom I certainly do not vilify) plan dangerous or stressful activities with the purpose to distress the participants and that will cause the youth to pray or seek priesthood blessings (all of which I have experienced in treks my children attended). This type of thing does not happen in historical re-enactments, fairs, or movies...not with the purpose of manipulating participants into seeking spiritual protection or relief. Your last comment is personally insulting. I'm disappointed that you would take it this far. Judging me for how I feel about my ancestors' sacred experience is beyond the pale. We're done. Edited June 26, 2015 by Bernard Gui 1
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Post #5. osted 2 days agobluebell, on 23 Jun 2015 - 12:00 PM, said: Cool. I admit I kind of prefer it happening at night. I just know it has not been done in my stake or any of the treks I have heard about.
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I have absolutely no animus towards trek......except when the leaders (whom I certainly do not vilify) plan dangerous or stressful activities with the purpose to distress the participants and that will cause the youth to pray or seek priesthood blessings (all of which I have experienced in treks my children attended). This type of thing does not happen in historical re-enactments, fairs, or movies...not with the purpose of manipulating participants into seeking spiritual protection or relief. Your last comment is personally insulting. I'm disappointed that you would take it this far. Judging me for how I feel about my ancestors' sacred experience is beyond the pale. We're done. I find it is just being more consistent in my beliefs as you were using the same tactic our critics use to call our work for the dead sacrilege. If I accept one might as well accept the other.
Senator Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I doubt your ancestors are insulted by our youth treks or believe it is being trivialized. I'm not sure about that. While on a trek, I got this distinct impression as if someone was speaking to me saying, "why are you doing this? we did it because we had to."
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