Isn't It Time We Call Ourselves Out?

[bluebell]

Paul certainly seemed sincere in his zeal to uphold the law:

Nicodemus seems equally sincere.

Exactly.

Christ called neither man a hypocrite.

[Senator]

I wonder if in our proselytizing, do we adequately instruct investigators on what and where it is acceptable to speak one's thoughts/feelings/doubts about the church they are considering joining?

 

That may sound silly, but the church is a different animal than the rest of the world. Should there be made more available certain "terms of agreement" when one is joining the church?

[Senator]

Which makes challenging them very difficult. It was much easier when dealing with antimormons. Do you remember a time when the critics were purged from the board because they became too many? And there needed to be a balance between believers and non believers? I wonder what is the balance now. But it would be difficult to 'purge' lds members who are critics.

You're always free to start your own forum and create the perfect echo chamber to your hearts content.

[tonie]

 

I've been quite specific in my criticisms of Kate Kelly.  I have identified, chapter and verse, the statements and conduct I have found objectionable.  I likewise have frequently acknowledged her positive traits, and on occasion I have even defended her.  

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

Non-responsive.

 

The questions were about the number of times you used the term "dishonest" in reference to Kate Kelly, and how many thread you created about her or Ordain Woman.

Edited June 8, 2015 by tonie

[Teancum]

Yeah, smac's response is about what I thought you'd get.  Good luck with the rest of the thread.

Oh yes well said. Here a poster who seems a good member asks sincer question and what does Smac do? verbally smacks him.

Some here cannot stand that the Church and or its leaders may have some work to do. Smac is one of them. Others are self apparent.

[Teancum]

Do you have a specific problem with what Smac said?

You did not ask me but yes. But I am sure you won't understand or want to. You and Smac are of the same mind ...clearly.

[Teancum]

The question was put to you.

 

But if you don't have a response, that's cool.

 

For my part, I quite liked his response and agree with him that there is in the OP a lot of blanket condemnation and accusation of gross sins being poured out against people who in the main are trying to do good. And a bad rap against the Church of Jesus Christ as an institution.

And somewhat deserved though I am sure you cannot see it.

[Teancum]

Drawing upon the Master's reproach of the Pharisees as a tool of personal introspection so as to avoid such errors in one's own life is one thing.

 

But you seemed to go beyond that and issue blanket accusations against the Church of Jesus Christ as an institution and many of its faithful members. That strikes me as unrighteous judgment, and it is what I and, I think, Smac and others object to.

How utterly ironic.

[Teancum]

For my part, the answer is no. I think stemelbow misguided in some respects, but I would not apply either of those terms to him.

 

I have to say, though, when I see threads such as this one, I'm led to say in my heart, "Who needs anti-Mormons."

Yep. You self proclaimed apologists are doing a fine job on your own.

[Kenngo1969]

I wish

 

... every ...

... single ...

... member ...

 

of 

 

... every ...

... single ...

... unit ...

 

in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could rotate through callings that require us to be in attendance at Ward/Branch Council Meetings.  I am a reasonably sincere, charitable, empathetic human being, yet, until I was in a series of such positions, I had ...

 

... absolutely ...

... no ...

... clue ...

 

either about the depth of needs and challenges faced by my brothers and sisters in the ward (after his first Sunday counseling members as the bishop of his ward, my brother came home and told his wife, "Let's just be grateful for our problems"), nor of the extraordinary lengths both leadership and rank-and-file ward members go to help their brothers and sisters meet their needs and face their challenges.

 

Until someone sees the operation of the ward or branch from that perspective, I don't think one is qualified to pontificate on how pharasaical his brothers and sisters are.

[Russell C McGregor]

See what I mean? There is great cultural resistance to institutional introspection. It's interpreted as disloyalty.

Either that, or some of us are astute enough to recognise when blanket accusations against the Church and its members are dressed up as "introspection" in order to claim a free pass, and thus do not fall for the legerdemain.

[Scott Lloyd]

Either that, or some of us are astute enough to recognise when blanket accusations against the Church and its members are dressed up as "introspection" in order to claim a free pass, and thus do not fall for the legerdemain.

Indeed.

 

A person can't do introspection for others. It can only be done for oneself.

 

The prefix intro- , after all, means directed inward. Here's a good online source for the meaning.

 

Ergo, by definition, a person cannot upon his own authority and initiative undertake introspection for an organization or a group, even if he happens to belong to that group. He can only engage in introspection for himself.

[Bobbieaware]

Oh boy! More negativity about the Church! I hope the kinds of people who start threads like this one don't wake-up and realize the only way to realy improve the church is to humbly, quietly and respectfully model the kind of behavior they wish to see in others. My cause is mightily advanced every time church members succumb to the temptation to look outward, condemn others, and tare each other down rather than taking a critical look into their own faulty hearts, courageously seek out what's laking and then make spiritual self-improvement job number one. But I'm very hopeful they won't wake up because it's far too much fun for carnal minds to condemn others instead of surrendering to the will of God and doing the hard work of genuinely repenting of their own sins with broken hearts and contrite spirits. So keep up the good work boys and have yourselves a ball! I'll be seeing you at the windows of the great and spacious building -- and don't be late...

Your pal, The Adversary

Edited June 9, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[ttribe]

Either that, or some of us are astute enough to recognise when blanket accusations against the Church and its members are dressed up as "introspection" in order to claim a free pass, and thus do not fall for the legerdemain.

 

Orrrrrr, it could be that "some of us" hastily assume ill-intent and assign nefarious labels (e.g. legerdemain, calumnies, etc.) to someone who was genuinely trying to have a discussion about his observations and attempting to sort out his thoughts on those observations rather than being attacked personally for merely having said thoughts.

[Teancum]

Orrrrrr, it could be that "some of us" hastily assume ill-intent and assign nefarious labels (e.g. legerdemain, calumnies, etc.) to someone who was genuinely trying to have a discussion about his observations and attempting to sort out his thoughts on those observations rather than being attacked personally for merely having said thoughts.

Now there is a novel outside the box thinking.

Bobbieware.....why is the church and or its members and leaders above thoughtful and constructive criticism ?

Edited June 9, 2015 by Teancum

[Bobbieaware]

Now there is a novel outside the box thinking.

Bobbieware.....why is the church above constructive criticism ?

The Adversary's post is self-explanatory. Read what he's most worried about and you'll have your answer.

[ttribe]

Oh boy! More negativity about the Church! I hope the kinds of people who start threads like this one don't wake-up and realize the only way to realy improve the church is to humbly, quietly and respectfully model the kind of behavior they wish to see in others. My cause is mightily advanced every time church members succumb to the temptation to look outward, condemn others, and tare each other down rather than taking a critical look into their own faulty hearts, courageously seek out what's laking and then make spiritual self-improvement job number one. But I'm very hopeful they won't wake up because it's far too much fun for carnal minds to condemn others instead of surrendering to the will of God and doing the hard work of genuinely repenting of their own sins with broken hearts and contrite spirits. So keep up the good work boys and have yourselves a ball! I'll be seeing you at the windows of the great and spacious building -- and don't be late...

Your pal, The Adversary

 

 

The Adversary's post is self-explanatory. Read what he's most worried about and you'll have your answer.

 

  You sure you really want to claim to be able to speak for "The Adversary?" 

[Bobbieaware]

  You sure you really want to claim to be able to speak for "The Adversary?"

Hopefully, an intelligent fellow like yourself understands the usefulness of the literary device known as satire.

[ttribe]

Hopefully, an intelligent fellow like yourself understands the usefulness of the literary device known as satire.

 

Yeah, but it doesn't make it any less absurd given the context of this board.

Edited June 9, 2015 by ttribe

[Scott Lloyd]

Now there is a novel outside the box thinking.

Bobbieware.....why is the church and or its members and leaders above thoughtful and constructive criticism ?

The operative word here is "constructive." Criticism that is misdirected, ill-founded, unjustified is not, by definition, constructive.

[JLHPROF]

 why is the church and or its members and leaders above thoughtful and constructive criticism ?

 

If anyone actually provided some that would make a nice change from the usual attacks.

[rodheadlee]

I mean call the Church, meaning us, out for being a Pharisaic org?

Interesting in GD yesterday, no? Assuming everyone is on the same schedule as our ward--Woe unto you,...Hypocrites"

Going to Matthew 23 wherein Christ is said to have condemn the scribes and Pharisees.

Vs 13

The more I sit in Church, the more I discuss with other LDS soteriology, I feel like we're arbitrarily shutting people out of the kingdom of heaven, making it impossible for us to get in, and often, Church members seem gleeful expressing how many won't make it. Is this not us?

Vs 14

Not sure we figured out what was meant by devouring widows' houses, so any insight is appreciated here. Making long showy prayers seems applicable to much of LDS meetings' prayers to me. I fear we forget the widows often, if that holds any meaning here--we get pretty busy in life. We get a little more showy than substance. This seems very applicable to our modern church.

vs 15

If applicable as it seems to me, ouch! We expend a lot of effort to compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and with the attitude we often carry it may be more destructive than helpful, I fear.

vs 16 - 22

Sometimes we seem more concerned with the ornate than the actual object of import. We love our temples and are proud of their beauty, forgetting that it isn't the beauty that is important, it isn't the appearance of being a part of it that is important. I don't know, I might be stretching a little on this one.

vs 23 - 24

I've certainly felt like I myself and my fellow Church goers get caught up in things like tithing, whether we are exactly observant there and forget that weightier matters--judgment, mercy, and faith. I feel on this we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

vs 25 - 26

We can certainly seem to worry more about appearing clean for the outside and forget that we are no more clean than others. I have a big concern that this is a big problem that is only growing.

vs 27 - 28

I hate thinking on this because I know of so much personal pain and anguish in the Church. But I think there is plenty applicable here as well. I fear I too am inwardly unclean, full of dead men's bones, but somehow come off trying to appear as righteous.

vs 29 - 39

We wont' see Christ until we can say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord". We certainly feel blessed to have our prophets and apostles, but perhaps we still aren't quite getting it. perhaps we're still unable to comprehend that which He needs us to comprehend. Our love for our apostles and prophets has not brought Christ unto us. Not until sometime in the future when change has affected us and we are more apt to feel blessed for those whom the Lord sends.

Some of my thoughts from yesterday. the class, as little as I participated as to not upset, seemed to disagree with me and felt defensive as I asked questions, so I thougth I'd bring it here for discussion.

 We? You got a mouse in your pocket? I got nailed to the cross last week for pointing out that being a pretender is the same thing as being a hypocrite. I posted the exact same verses.

[Storm Rider]

I wonder if in our proselytizing, do we adequately instruct investigators on what and where it is acceptable to speak one's thoughts/feelings/doubts about the church they are considering joining?

 

That may sound silly, but the church is a different animal than the rest of the world. Should there be made more available certain "terms of agreement" when one is joining the church?

 

Exactly what kind of course and how long should it be undertaken before you would let anyone join the Church?  Based upon your comments I am thinking that maybe we set up universities and when they finish a full doctorate degree, pass a type of board certification, then we allow them to be baptized.  At this point would you allow a person to join or should there be a multiple degree requirement?  Say a degree in psychology, philosophy, and divinity for good measure.  

 

Gosh, I am glad the Savior just taught and baptized him the same day.  Just seems a lot easier and focuses on what is the most important thing - salvation. 

[Teancum]

The Adversary's post is self-explanatory. Read what he's most worried about and you'll have your answer.

I read it and that is what generated my question.

[Teancum]

The operative word here is "constructive." Criticism that is misdirected, ill-founded, unjustified is not, by definition, constructive.

I found the OPs topic valid and constructive and totally non deserving of the dog pile on Stem received. Though I was not surprised by it.