Isn't It Time We Call Ourselves Out?

[stemelbow]

I mean call the Church, meaning us, out for being a Pharisaic org?

Interesting in GD yesterday, no? Assuming everyone is on the same schedule as our ward--Woe unto you,...Hypocrites"

Going to Matthew 23 wherein Christ is said to have condemn the scribes and Pharisees.

Vs 13

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

The more I sit in Church, the more I discuss with other LDS soteriology, I feel like we're arbitrarily shutting people out of the kingdom of heaven, making it impossible for us to get in, and often, Church members seem gleeful expressing how many won't make it. Is this not us?

Vs 14

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Not sure we figured out what was meant by devouring widows' houses, so any insight is appreciated here. Making long showy prayers seems applicable to much of LDS meetings' prayers to me. I fear we forget the widows often, if that holds any meaning here--we get pretty busy in life. We get a little more showy than substance. This seems very applicable to our modern church.

vs 15

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

If applicable as it seems to me, ouch! We expend a lot of effort to compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and with the attitude we often carry it may be more destructive than helpful, I fear.

vs 16 - 22

Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Sometimes we seem more concerned with the ornate than the actual object of import. We love our temples and are proud of their beauty, forgetting that it isn't the beauty that is important, it isn't the appearance of being a part of it that is important. I don't know, I might be stretching a little on this one.

vs 23 - 24

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I've certainly felt like I myself and my fellow Church goers get caught up in things like tithing, whether we are exactly observant there and forget that weightier matters--judgment, mercy, and faith. I feel on this we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

vs 25 - 26

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

We can certainly seem to worry more about appearing clean for the outside and forget that we are no more clean than others. I have a big concern that this is a big problem that is only growing.

vs 27 - 28

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

I hate thinking on this because I know of so much personal pain and anguish in the Church. But I think there is plenty applicable here as well. I fear I too am inwardly unclean, full of dead men's bones, but somehow come off trying to appear as righteous.

vs 29 - 39

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 ¶Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

We wont' see Christ until we can say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord". We certainly feel blessed to have our prophets and apostles, but perhaps we still aren't quite getting it. perhaps we're still unable to comprehend that which He needs us to comprehend. Our love for our apostles and prophets has not brought Christ unto us. Not until sometime in the future when change has affected us and we are more apt to feel blessed for those whom the Lord sends.

Some of my thoughts from yesterday. the class, as little as I participated as to not upset, seemed to disagree with me and felt defensive as I asked questions, so I thougth I'd bring it here for discussion.

[Gray]

I think any institution will come to exhibit those traits over time. Self-reflection is good for the soul. 

[stemelbow]

I think any institution will come to exhibit those traits over time. Self-reflection is good for the soul.

I agree with both of your statements. So, if the Church has exhibited the traits that it is said Christ condemned, ought not we be able to change? need we change as to not exhibit those traits, or work to try and change?

[JLHPROF]

I agree with both of your statements. So, if the Church has exhibited the traits that it is said Christ condemned, ought not we be able to change? need we change as to not exhibit those traits, or work to try and change?

 

Are we not still operating in a Telestial society?  It will take the Millennial period of Terrestrial life to get our level of charity to where Christ wants.

[stemelbow]

Are we not still operating in a Telestial society?  It will take the Millennial period of Terrestrial life to get our level of charity to where Christ wants.

I suppose my concern is we often talk about the Pharisees as examples of the bad, but seem to fail to realize we are them.

[Tacenda]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1284&sid=34977713

 

I think Christ said He is the temple now.  But I know, this will be explained to me once again, I'm thick headed for not understanding this worship of a beautiful building.  I know it's said it's what goes on in the temple that is beautiful, but that is not spoken of much in these news broadcasts.  I don't understand the money that goes into these places, I wish I could.  It's like how I use to judge the Catholics for spending all that money on gold ornaments in their churches during Sacrament and such.  I don't know, I hope I'm not totally turning into a Socialist because I do believe in our rights to buy whatever we have money for.  But seem to wish money would be better spent elsewhere.  Hospitals, research, shelters, more water treatment.  It only takes a few thousand for a cure for blindness (eye drops) in places around the world, treatment of Malaria etc.  There is so much that can and should be done.  Missions to serve in temples faraway, leaving family behind, leaving dying loved ones (current personal experience of my in law's daughter and son in law).  And why aren't these temples opened with more time slots and utilized more?  Why aren't people going in droves if this is so necessary.  Don't members believe it?  I know it's a place to go to and get away from the world, peaceful and spiritual.  But is that what God wanted?  It's fine to have but at least give as much or more to the other needs.    

Edited June 8, 2015 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

The Church is nothing but a reflection of its members, which are made of the very twisted wood of humanity.  The caution of hypocrisy is not to find fault in others, but to see it first and foremost in ourselves.  The actions of others is their problem, our own personal actions and hypocrisy is what is vital and most important.

 

I don't think it is novel to find error among the saints; it is the same as acknowledging they are human.  The weightier matters of the law, of judgment, of mercy and of faith.  It is interesting how often on this Board we would prefer to cast of any indication of God's law in favor of the secular, more all-encompassing generalization of love - that sacchariny sweet concept where everything is acceptable as long as it can be labeled as love and absolutely without any degree of judgment.  What role does law play when there is no judgment; without law there is no mercy.

 

I agree that the scriptures provide lessons for us, examples to teach us, but we must apply it to how we live our own lives and learn how to become better disciples. 

[Gray]

I agree with both of your statements. So, if the Church has exhibited the traits that it is said Christ condemned, ought not we be able to change? need we change as to not exhibit those traits, or work to try and change?

 

It seems easier to be self-critical as a Latter-day Saint than to look at the institution and say there are some problems, and how can we solve them. Given that approach it's hard to see how the institution itself can be reformed without the president of the church leading that reform. 

 

But, even if we didn't have that cultural barrier to institutional introspection, I think it would still be very difficult to change. This is why people form breakoff groups. But then the new groups slowly turn into the institution they were rebelling against. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Gray

[Storm Rider]

How many temples do we have in the world?  It would be a stretch to make a blanket statement that they are ornate.  It is even more of a stretch to claim our meeting houses are ornate.  The Church specializes in vanilla; it is what serves and never what could be said to be the best of things, building materials, made in the world.  

 

I would like to see more hospitals and schools around the world.  However, at best we represent 15 million people.  Most critics will argue that we are really only some 4 to 5 million that regularly attend church.  Taking the 5 million figure; exactly how many schools and hospitals could the LDS Church build, manage, and operate?  I think what the church does in service missions is a feasible way to approach having an impact.  In addition, the Church goes out of its way to participate with other larger agencies to assist in times of calamity.  

 

Where I fall short is I don't provide additional funds specifically for these ventures.  I guess I get tired of overwhelming demand for more.  There is always more to be done, more money needed somewhere.  I think I grow calloused to the request and just pacify myself by saying that I do enough, yet I know I fall far short of the mark. 

[JLHPROF]

I suppose my concern is we often talk about the Pharisees as examples of the bad, but seem to fail to realize we are them.

 

I think that's a bit of a stretch.  I will agree that we are often very much like them, but I don't that a systematized situation, more just human weakness.  And we ARE trying to do better, not setting Pharisaical behavior up as a an acceptable norm.   We are constantly prompted by our leaders to do better.

We just aren't there yet.

 

perhaps we still aren't quite getting it. perhaps we're still unable to comprehend that which He needs us to comprehend.

 

Now that is an accurate way to phrase it.

[HappyJackWagon]

We were on the same lesson and I had a couple of thoughts about it. I studied the lesson for probably 1 1/2-2 hours, listening to podcasts, reading the scriptures, studying scriptural commentary etc to prepare to participate in the lesson. I prepare this way most weeks and feel I'm often able to provide some interesting insights, but not yesterday because the topic never really went deep enough to engage the topics. These are my realizations from yesterday-

 

1- Yes, I'm  a hypocrite

2- Lessons barely skim the surface of the material and concepts

3- The instructor referred to the Pharisees as being most interested in "outward expressions" of righteousness as a way of proving their "inner committment" to God. The phrasing immediately made me think of the garment statement that's part of the TR interview.

4- Yes. The church is pharisaical. More so than it needs to be. Recognition of this would be a great step in discipleship.

[smac97]

Replying to Isn't It Time We Call Ourselves Out?

Hmm. Your manner of "call(ing) ourselves out" sounds quite a bit like "calling the Church to repentance." Don't get me wrong, the Church may at times be in need of being called to repentance. But I think it is the responsibility of the Brethren to do so.

 

I mean call the Church, meaning us, out for being a Pharisaic org?

Yep. You are calling the Church to repentance. That's not our gig, bro.

And I reject your broad premise about the Church being Pharisaical.

 

Interesting in GD yesterday, no? Assuming everyone is on the same schedule as our ward--Woe unto you,...Hypocrites"

Feel free to call yourself to repentance. But others over which you have no stewardship . . . that's not your job. Calling the Church in its entirety to repentance and publicly accusing it of being Pharisaical and hypocritical . . . I don't think that's your job, nor do I believe that such meta accusations are warranted.

 

Going to Matthew 23 wherein Christ is said to have condemn the scribes and Pharisees.

Vs 13

The more I sit in Church, the more I discuss with other LDS soteriology, I feel like we're arbitrarily shutting people out of the kingdom of heaven, making it impossible for us to get in, and often, Church members seem gleeful expressing how many won't make it. Is this not us?

You'll have to explain why you think this way. I'm not sure what you mean by "arbitrarily shutting people out." I'm not seeing much in the way of "arbitrary" conduct in the Church.  The conditions for baptism have been set by God, and are therefore not reasonable defined as "arbitrary."  Qualifications for attending the temple are likewise set by God, and are likewise not arbitrary.  We are expending huge amounts of time, money, resources, and personal service in sending out tens of thousands of missionaries every year to preach the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (ironically, you manage to find fault with this as well), which is principally designed to invite people into the Kingdom, not "arbitrarily" shut them out of it.  We do not live in isolated communes.  We have instead set up stakes of Zion around the world so as to give as many people as possible an opportunity to join our community of faith.  This hardly sounds like an organization bent on "arbitrarily shutting people out of the kingdom of heaven."  In fact, your accusation is a pernicious falsehood and calumny that deserves to be soundly rejected.

So at present, I'll say "No, this is not us."

 

Vs 14

Not sure we figured out what was meant by devouring widows' houses, so any insight is appreciated here.

Somehow, I think you'll only be interested in interpretations which tear down the LDS Church. So I'll decline to participate in a discussion about this. You're asking us to play with a rigged deck.

 

Making long showy prayers seems applicable to much of LDS meetings' prayers to me.

And sincere, heartfelt prayers are also in abundance in the Church. We all have room to improve, of course. But your over-the-top denunciations of the Church in toto are overwrought, unfair and uncharitable.

 

I fear we forget the widows often, if that holds any meaning here--we get pretty busy in life.

What's this "we," kemosabe? Is it possible that there are many corners of the Lord's vineyard where Church members do reach out and serve widows? And widowers? And divorced persons? Shut-ins? Never-married persons? Families with marital or parenting problems, or with children facing difficulties? Single-parent homes? Lower income families? Individuals with employment problems, or social/mental/emotional challenges?

Are you familiar with the Church's welfare program? Its employment training program? Its Provident Living program? Its social services program? The Perpetual Education Fund? Deseret Industries?  Bishops' storehouses?  Fast offerings?  Home Teaching? Visiting Teaching? The Relief Society? Personal Priesthood Interviews in priesthood quorums? Bishops' interviews and in-home visits? Scouting? The YM/YW programs? Constant themes in over-the-pulpit counsel from the Brethren about serving our fellow man and improving our communities? Ward and stake activities designed specifically to foster communal relations?

The Church has programs and counsel coming out of its ears which are designed to help the Saints help each other. These programs can be, and often are, quite successful. And yet here comes Captain Navel Gazer to publicly castigate the entirety of the LDS Church, call it to repentance, accuse it of being hypocritical and pharisaical, and so on.

 

The mind reels.

 

We get a little more showy than substance. This seems very applicable to our modern church.

Then, Mr. Armchair Quarterback, maybe some should consider spending more time serving in and advancing the Church's many programs and adhering to the counsel from the Church's leaders which focus on "substance," and spend a bit less time presuming to publicly judge and condemn the Church in its entirety for just not living up to your lofty expectations.

 

vs 15

If applicable as it seems to me, ouch! We expend a lot of effort to compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and with the attitude we often carry it may be more destructive than helpful, I fear.

More fault-finding and navel-gazing. Wow! How constructive and helpful this is!

 

vs 16 - 22

Sometimes we seem more concerned with the ornate than the actual object of import. We love our temples and are proud of their beauty, forgetting that it isn't the beauty that is important, it isn't the appearance of being a part of it that is important. I don't know, I might be stretching a little on this one.

You "might" be "stretching" a "little" on this "one?"

Your post exemplifies one of the most pernicious things about faultfinding: You'll always succeed at it.

 

vs 23 - 24

I've certainly felt like I myself and my fellow Church goers get caught up in things like tithing, whether we are exactly observant there and forget that weightier matters--judgment, mercy, and faith. I feel on this we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Oh, brother. Then quit navel-gazing and get to work, bro. Go volunteer at DI, or United Way, or the Red Cross. Get your home teaching or visiting teaching done every month. Get to know your neighbors and help those in need. Fulfill your church calling. Take care of your family. Have patience and charity for those around you.  Pray and fast for them.  Go serve in the temple.  Fill your life with good works, faithful works, works of love. And who knows? Such things just might end up making the world a better place, and might be a bit more effective than presuming to publicly judge and condemn the Church in its entirety for just not living up to your lofty expectations.

 

vs 25 - 26

We can certainly seem to worry more about appearing clean for the outside and forget that we are no more clean than others. I have a big concern that this is a big problem that is only growing.

Oh, the irony.

 

vs 27 - 28

I hate thinking on this because I know of so much personal pain and anguish in the Church. But I think there is plenty applicable here as well. I fear I too am inwardly unclean, full of dead men's bones, but somehow come off trying to appear as righteous.

Then quit navel-gazing and get to work, bro. There are many, many Latter-day Saints who are doing God's work, and you just publicly accused them, their leaders, their Church of gross sins.  Let's stop rising up to condemn others, and get to work. We're all in this together, and we don't really advance the Lord's work by the kind of navel-gazing, judgmental, condemnatory bile you have spewed against your own faith and co-religionists.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 8, 2015 by smac97

[bluebell]

I suppose my concern is we often talk about the Pharisees as examples of the bad, but seem to fail to realize we are them.

 

I don't think we are very often 'them' though.

 

I mean, we all have those moments.  We are all hypocrites to some extent.  However, I think that the majority of people who go to church are sincere in their desire to follow Christ, care about those around them, and are trying to hunger and thirst after righteousness.  No one who does those things, no matter how flawed, can be compared to pharisees.

 

Do you really think that the majority of your ward members are really has horrible as you have described them, saying prayers to be seen of men, not caring about widows or those in need, etc?

[ttribe]

Yeah, smac's response is about what I thought you'd get.  Good luck with the rest of the thread.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yeah, smac's response is about what I thought you'd get.  Good luck with the rest of the thread.

Do you have a specific problem with what Smac said?

[Gray]

Then quit navel-gazing and get to work, bro. There are many, many Latter-day Saints who are doing God's work, and you just publicly accused them, their leaders, their Church of gross sins.  Let's stop rising up to condemn others, and get to work. We're all in this together, and we don't really advance the Lord's work by the kind of navel-gazing, judgmental, condemnatory bile you have spewed against your own faith and co-religionists.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

The wicked take the truth to be hard!

 

 

Just messing with you, Smac

Edited June 8, 2015 by Gray

[ttribe]

Do you have a specific problem with what Smac said?

 

Ask the OP; I'm just an observer.

[bluebell]

Ask the OP; I'm just an observer.

 

If you were really just an observer, you wouldn't have posted anything.....  

[Scott Lloyd]

Ask the OP; I'm just an observer.

The question was put to you.

 

But if you don't have a response, that's cool.

 

For my part, I quite liked his response and agree with him that there is in the OP a lot of blanket condemnation and accusation of gross sins being poured out against people who in the main are trying to do good. And a bad rap against the Church of Jesus Christ as an institution.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

Do you have a specific problem with what Smac said?

I do. This for starters.

 

 

Then, Mr. Armchair Quarterback, maybe some should consider spending more time serving in and advancing the Church's many programs and adhering to the counsel from the Church's leaders which focus on "substance," and spend a bit less time presuming to publicly judge and condemn the Church in its entirety for just not living up to your lofty expectations.

 

Derisive and assumptive. Does SMAC know that Stemelbow isn't spending time serving in the church? (He may have said "some" but it was clearly  directed at Stemelbow)

 

 

Frankly, if someone is incapable of seeing pharasaical behaviors in the church I'm thinking they must be blind. But don't worry, Christ can heal the blindness.

Edited June 8, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[ttribe]

If you were really just an observer, you wouldn't have posted anything.....  

 

Next time, I'll just send a PM.

 

The question was put to you.

 

But if you don't have a response, that's cool.

 

More like, I decided I really don't have time.

[Scott Lloyd]

I do. This for starters.

 

Derisive and assumptive. Does SMAC know that Stemelbow isn't spending time serving in the church?

 

Frankly, if someone is incapable of seeing pharasaical behaviors in the church I'm thinking they must be blind. But don't worry, Christ can heal the blindness.

What I saw was not so much "seeing Pharasaical behaviors in the Church" as it was a blanket condemnation of the Church in general. And over-the-top accusation for individual quirks, such as praying too long. I seldom see that done in the Church these days, and even then, it's something I can tolerate and try to curb whatever annoyance I might feel therefrom. The real target of Christ's chastening were those who make a public show of their own righteousness and then neglect weightier matters of the law such as ministering to those in need. I'm not convinced that is always a characteristic these days of those whose public prayers sometimes get a bit long.

 

 Elder Maxwell on one occasion said  that "we are each other's clinical material; the Lord allows us to practice on each other." (Emphasis in original.) I think it good to bear that in mind.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Next time, I'll just send a PM.

 

 

More like, I decided I really don't have time.

A judicious choice, I'd say.

 

Some things just aren't worth the time.

[halconero]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1284&sid=34977713

I don't know, I hope I'm not totally turning into a Socialist because I do believe in our rights to buy whatever we have money for.  But seem to wish money would be better spent elsewhere.

We're not all bad, liberty-hating, market-despite, devil-worshippers.

Some of us believe that freedom form poverty and sickness is an extension of agency rather than an impediment.

There, that's enough toeing of the rules line for the day.

[cinepro]

I mean call the Church, meaning us, out for being a Pharisaic org?

 

<snip>

Some of my thoughts from yesterday. the class, as little as I participated as to not upset, seemed to disagree with me and felt defensive as I asked questions, so I thougth I'd bring it here for discussion.

 

I don't know that I agree with your points specifically, but I do agree that I'm sometimes mystified by the Church's emphasis on certain things and lack of emphasis on others.  In the last 185 years, the Church has developed into an incredibly organized and efficient "machine", but based on what I hear each week, our efforts seem to be most focused on getting people to home teach each other and go to the Temple to do vicarious work for the dead. 

 

I think it would be cool if someone flipped a switch in the COB and President Monson stood up in conference and said "We're doing great with the vicarious work, and now it's time to work just as hard to help out the living."  Instead of monthly organized Stake Temple trips and an annual day of community service, we would do monthly service projects with an annual organized Stake Temple trip.  The focus of the youth and adult programs would be constant service, with food drives, clothing drives, regular service projects and a continual reminder of the ways in which we can help other people.   What if the Church looked at other specific needs in our communities and attacked them with the same energy and focus that was dedicated to Prop 8 in California? 

 

There have been interesting moves to emphasis service (I thought the Church had set up a website to identify community service opportunities, but I couldn't find it).  And I understand missionaries are spending more time in community service, which is great.  But in the overall scheme of things, the things we emphasize in Church week after week do seem kind of...odd when compared to what we read in the New Testament and when we think of what a "christian" lifestyle can mean.