Proxy Baptisms - Act Of Love Or Arrogance?

[JAHS]

Do You recall if it was a general segment of the Jewish population or did it come from a particular quarter? In orthodox and ultra-orthodox circles i have NEVER come across any real rancor. The rabbis i know simply shrug their shoulders and say, well, the LDS are wrong so it doesn't matter. On the other hand, some of my less observant acquaintances do get somewhat riled up by baptisms for our deceased members whether they were victims of the genocide or not. They are not favorably disposed towards Mormon Christianity, in any event, so the proxy baptisms are just another item on the list. That is the pattern that i have noted.

 

On a personal level, i understand the motivation behind the practice and believe that it is done from kindness. If the LDS are mistaken, it cannot matter. If the LDS are correct. we will have reason to be grateful later on.

 

On the other hand, as Reb Tevye says, if the LDS are correct and they cease this practice, would it not be an abnegation of their responsibility to the dead? I comprehend the great value in being sensitive to the needs of the living but, theologically speaking, how can one cease ministering to a group of people because it is unpopular?

 

It seems the issue stands on the horns of a dilemma.

I guess it's one of those things we have to realize is going to displease some people, which is what is going to happen when any religion takes a stand for or against something. People don't like to be bothered by missionaries knocking on their doors; they don't like the stand the church takes on same sex marriages; they don't like proxy baptisms, etc. but we keep doing these things because we believe God wants us to.  We have to be prepared to take the criticism.

[JAHS]

I would rather worry about people getting out of hell rather then people's feelings getting hurt. Just a personal preference.

But some woud call that a very arrogant attitude to take. "My religion is better than yours and I know whats best for you beter than you do"

 

Some people will be offended no matter what we say or how we explain it.

[JLHPROF]

I completely understand why many of other faiths would find our practice offensive.

But the work needs to be done eventually.  And it's not like it forces anyone on the other side to "become a Mormon".  (Silly complaint).

 

Honestly, when Christ returns and we spend 1000 years doing temple work I am sure that they will change their minds.

[pogi]

But some woud call that a very arrogant attitude to take. "My religion is better than yours and I know whats best for you beter than you do"

 

Some people will be offended no matter what we say or how we explain it.

 

Believing that you are right, or that your religion is true, is not the same as arrogance - although it can be taken there.  There is absolutely no air of arrogance in performing baptisms for the dead.  They are done in humility, respect, and love.   

[The Nehor]

But some woud call that a very arrogant attitude to take. "My religion is better than yours and I know whats best for you beter than you do"

 

Some people will be offended no matter what we say or how we explain it.

I just do not care. The gospel is offensive to most of the world. While we should not go out of our way to exagerrate that attribute it is there. Either we abandon our principles or we live them. I have more respect for the latter.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I just do not care. The gospel is offensive to most of the world. While we should not go out of our way to exagerrate that attribute it is there. Either we abandon our principles or we live them. I have more respect for the latter.

 

You don't care? That's sweet. If we care about living the Law of the Gospel - Love God and Love our Neighbor, then we should care.

It's true that people can be offended by just about anything, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care if we offend and hurt someone else. In most cases there is a way things could be said or done differently to elicit less offense taking. But we only become less offensive if we care.

[The Nehor]

You don't care? That's sweet. If we care about living the Law of the Gospel - Love God and Love our Neighbor, then we should care.It's true that people can be offended by just about anything, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care if we offend and hurt someone else. In most cases there is a way things could be said or done differently to elicit less offense taking. But we only become less offensive if we care.

I care about their feelings about proxy baptisms as I would about the feelings of people I shoved out of the way because I am running to save my nephew who is about to walk into traffic and be hurt or killed. I would not normally shove them out of the way but my priorities are clear.

There are people suffering in hellish conditions eager and ever desperate for escape. Caring more about people offended we will say their relative's name in a ceremony is lunacy.

[danielwoods]

I don't really care either. It doesn't matter to me. Baptize for me 10 times if you'd like. Won't matter. After I am dead, I will be with the lord because I trust in him. 

[JAHS]

I don't really care either. It doesn't matter to me. Baptize for me 10 times if you'd like. Won't matter. After I am dead, I will be with the lord because I trust in him. 

I wish more people had the confidence in their own beliefs as you have with yours. If they did, such a thing that someone does for them in another religion wouldn't bother them so much. The fear and offense they display about such things is a reflection of their lack of faith. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by JAHS

[Robert F. Smith]

I care about their feelings about proxy baptisms as I would about the feelings of people I shoved out of the way because I am running to save my nephew who is about to walk into traffic and be hurt or killed. I would not normally shove them out of the way but my priorities are clear.

There are people suffering in hellish conditions eager and ever desperate for escape. Caring more about people offended we will say their relative's name in a ceremony is lunacy.

I appreciate the sentiments, but (despite the odd syntax of your final sentence) LDS Church rules do give the upper hand to certain classes of the offended.

[CCRW]

The story goes that 2 books were found under a bridge.  A father figure of mine got one of the books.  There were 20 thousands names of Holocaust victims in each book.  This was in the mid 90's.  At the time Temple ready was horrible (remember the 3.5" floppies).  I wrote a custom application for my father friend and we would temple ready names each week.  Both of us worked the Thursday and Friday last shift.  We would hand out the names there in the locker room.  After the original 20k were done, we did parents, with first names only, doing all their work as well, sealing the children to the parents.

 

As mentioned up thread, most Jews are not as uptight as one might think.  It turns out that many victims were identified though generational charts children in school had done before it all started.  It was as much being on a public "list" which they objected to as much as anything.

 

I kind of meet BKP, assuming I'd be excommunicated over something dealing with this, but that's another story.

Edited April 29, 2015 by CCRW

[JAHS]

The story goes that 2 books were found under a bridge.  A father figure of mine got one of the books.  There were 20 thousands names of Holocaust victims in each book.  This was in the mid 90's.  At the time Temple ready was horrible (remember the 3.5" floppies).  I wrote a custom application for my father friend and we would temple ready names each week.  Both of us worked the Thursday and Friday last shift.  We would hand out the names there in the locker room.  After the original 20k were done, we did parents, with first names only, doing all their work as well, sealing the children to the parents.

 

As mentioned up thread, most Jews are not as uptight as one might think.  It turns out that many victims were identified though generational charts children in school had done before it all started.  It was as much being on a public "list" which they objected to as much as anything.

 

I kind of meet BKP, assuming I'd be excommunicated over something dealing with this, but that's another story.

 

Here's one Jewish person who has a very healthy attitude on this subject:

 

"Outraged by Mormon Proxy Baptism? Not This Jew"

http://townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/2012/02/29/outraged_by_mormon_proxy_baptism_not_this_jew/page/full

[Yirgacheffe]

The lack of empathy combined with contempt for those who object, questioning the strength of their faith and belief and putting it off to nothing more than "they just don't like the church",  that's been shown on this board and the many places this has been discussed, probably contributes more to the ire this generates than the practice itself.

[The Nehor]

I appreciate the sentiments, but (despite the odd syntax of your final sentence) LDS Church rules do give the upper hand to certain classes of the offended.

 

The commandment is to seek our your kindred dead. The holocaust victim thing was people going against this counsel and possibly even antis trying to discredit the church.

 

 

The lack of empathy combined with contempt for those who object, questioning the strength of their faith and belief and putting it off to nothing more than "they just don't like the church",  that's been shown on this board and the many places this has been discussed, probably contributes more to the ire this generates than the practice itself.

 

I doubt it. Those people do not come here or learn anything about it. They for the most part are just outraged because it validates them in some way.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

The story goes that 2 books were found under a bridge.  A father figure of mine got one of the books.  There were 20 thousands names of Holocaust victims in each book.  This was in the mid 90's.  At the time Temple ready was horrible (remember the 3.5" floppies).  I wrote a custom application for my father friend and we would temple ready names each week.  Both of us worked the Thursday and Friday last shift.  We would hand out the names there in the locker room.  After the original 20k were done, we did parents, with first names only, doing all their work as well, sealing the children to the parents.

 

As mentioned up thread, most Jews are not as uptight as one might think.  It turns out that many victims were identified though generational charts children in school had done before it all started.  It was as much being on a public "list" which they objected to as much as anything.

 

I kind of meet BKP, assuming I'd be excommunicated over something dealing with this, but that's another story.

 

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

The church has certainly changed its tune on allowing for this kind of thing. After the hubub of baptizing holocaust victims they have come out strongly suggesting that people who continue to do it will lose access to the computer systems for making them temple ready and even face discipline.

[thesometimesaint]

 

 

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

The church has certainly changed its tune on allowing for this kind of thing. After the hubub of baptizing holocaust victims they have come out strongly suggesting that people who continue to do it will lose access to the computer systems for making them temple ready and even face discipline.

 

Not as much as some think. We still do proxy baptisms for holocaust victims. We just have to show a close family relationship.

[JAHS]

 

 

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

The church has certainly changed its tune on allowing for this kind of thing. After the hubub of baptizing holocaust victims they have come out strongly suggesting that people who continue to do it will lose access to the computer systems for making them temple ready and even face discipline.

Do you have a source for where such a statement came from?

[Rivers]

I  wonder how I would feel if the Catholics started performing their sacraments for my ancestors.

[JLHPROF]

I  wonder how I would feel if the Catholics started performing their sacraments for my ancestors.

 

Wouldn't bother me since I would consider them ineffectual.

Edited April 30, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

I would be very grateful. I am grateful for any prayer offered for my well being, temporary or eternal.

JAHS,

See

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-issues-direction-members-names-ordinances

Edited April 30, 2015 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

I believe in keeping Jews Jewish rather than to join gentile churches established after the death of Jesus.

I know of a family whose father was a staunch atheist. His wife and kids were LDS. He put into his will that not proxy baptism action would take place under threat of the law. Quite the logical provision to maintain one's conviction. I have considers the same so that my neither my siblings nor their kids take an action against me that I disagree with. It is a matter of respect for one's wishes. If I signed a DNR that was kept on file with the medical system then I expect that to be honored and not questioned.

But simply put, I don't need LDS baptism in this life or the next as it is ineffectual to my salvation no matter how much LDS disagree or claim God disagrees.

[JAHS]

I would be very grateful. I am grateful for any prayer offered for my well being, temporary or eternal.

JAHS,

See

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-issues-direction-members-names-ordinances

So would I. Thanks for the link.

[JAHS]

I believe in keeping Jews Jewish rather than to join gentile churches established after the death of Jesus.

I know of a family whose father was a staunch atheist. His wife and kids were LDS. He put into his will that not proxy baptism action would take place under threat of the law. Quite the logical provision to maintain one's conviction. I have considers the same so that my neither my siblings nor their kids take an action against me that I disagree with. It is a matter of respect for one's wishes. If I signed a DNR that was kept on file with the medical system then I expect that to be honored and not questioned.

But simply put, I don't need LDS baptism in this life or the next as it is ineffectual to my salvation no matter how much LDS disagree or claim God disagrees.

OK, I'll take you off the list. Oh wait, I don't even know what your real name is anyway.  

I appreciate the confidence you have in your own beliefs. And I agree with you about the Jews. They will find out in their own time.

[JLHPROF]

I know of a family whose father was a staunch atheist. His wife and kids were LDS. He put into his will that not proxy baptism action would take place under threat of the law.

 

Anyone want to bet it'll be done anyway?

It's not like he'll be around to check and the Church doesn't check the will of everyone that is proxy baptized.

Edited April 30, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

OK, I'll take you off the list. Oh wait, I don't even know what your real name is anyway.  

I appreciate the confidence you have in your own beliefs. And I agree with you about the Jews. They will find out in their own time.

 

I also agree about the Jews.  There is much doctrine surrounding their lack of acceptance of the Savior until the events at the Mount of Olives.

There are also some interesting early leaders quotes on the subject.

Edited April 30, 2015 by JLHPROF