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Proxy Baptisms - Act Of Love Or Arrogance?

JAHS

By JAHS
in General Discussions

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Damien the Leper Grand Master

Damien the Leper

Posted
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Because they may have to defend it in a court of law to  a judge who would not be willing to rule against a religious practice.

But documentation against a religious practice in a will still stands whether the religious practitioners like it or not. In this case, it's not about the living but the dead. The living need to get over themselves.

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

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It would not be thrown out on the grounds that the wishes were legally documented, annotated and submitted. Freedom of religion be damned in the case of secular liberty in this case.

And you have evidence that this has occurred where?

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stemelbow Grand Master

stemelbow

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I can empathize with your perspective. However, the wishes and provisions of a legal document such as a will must be upheld. If the will says no posthumous baptism then I would hope all family or friends or others would have the moral decency to honor a request and lawful document. Violation of such a legal document can be dealt with in civil court. The demand that a person makes not to be baptized cannot be violated by the pride of those who think they know better. A choice was made and others must get over it. Deal with the hypotheticals later if Mormonism is right.

And if a living relative has never had access to the will of the deceased? Had never known what was contained in the will? never knew it existed?

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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

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Then one must ask about the closeness of the relationship. This is a tiresome discussion with no positive outcome. I'll take my leave.

Right. I would like to get back on focusing on the main topic which is, how do we respond to those who think we are being very arrogant by presuming that their ancestors need to be baptized into the Mormon Church.  

I think there will always be those who are offended no matter what we do and we have to accept that, but perhaps if we could educate the people a little better on why we do it and the fact that we are not converting them to Mormonism could help. Perhaps a very well-worded statement from the Church would be  good start. Maybe such a thing already exists?

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

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Posted (edited)

Go back to one of my earlier posts in this thread. I'm not saying the legal process has happened but path after violating the will is possible.

So this is speculation on how it might play out based on your interpretation of the law?

 

Just to be clear.

 

add-on:  never mind, I see you feel the thread has gone as far as it needs to go.   :)

 

My apologies for being so nitpicky, but probably due to not getting any sleep last night so going on about 30 hours of awake time (means I am figuratively over the limit so won't be driving today...see thread in social if clueless about reference) I read one of your first comments as referring to actual practices so I could get some details on how it worked and I wanted to because I just hadn't heard of anything like it occuring and thought I would have somewhere along the way (Catholics being sued for doing a mass for the dead as they must do enough of them that surely someone made a court case of it if will instructions on what not to do religiously was common practice even if LDS didn't yet rate a court case :) ).

Edited by calmoriah
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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

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If there is free agency here, there is free agency thereafter...it is still a choice and if not arrogance a lack of respect for anyone born on this earth.

If I pray for someone and ask God to bless them, but didn't get their permission first, is that showing a lack of respect? 

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Sleeper Cell Experienced

Sleeper Cell

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I  wonder how I would feel if the Catholics started performing their sacraments for my ancestors.

 

They already have, at least for a few of my close ancestors --  including my father -- even though they and their ancestors have been protestants since the reformation.  And the persons who submitted their names -- without permission or prior notification -- weren’t even related to us.
 

To hallow the memory and bless the soul and to implore God’s tenderest blessings, _____________      [my father’s name]                
is hereby enrolled in the Sacred Heart Spiritual Society and will share in the daily Mass and prayers offered for all members of the society.  At the request of _________________   [ a non relative, and, to boot, someone whom I have never heard of], 
date _____________.  
 
So testifies Fr.  ______________ … 
Spiritual Director, Sacred Heart Spiritual  Society,
 
Naturally, I immediately wrote a scathing letter to this “Spiritual Director” expressing my outrage over their posthumous enrolling of my deceased father in some sort of Catholic Religious Society and subjecting him to a papist ritual …
 
 
 
 
…  Actually, I read the document with tears in my eyes.  If 3DOP or another of our Catholic posters can give me more information  about the Sacred Heart Spiritual Society (especially how to contact them), I would appreciate it.
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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

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They already have, at least for a few of my close ancestors --  including my father -- even though they and their ancestors have been protestants since the reformation.  And the persons who submitted their names -- without permission or prior notification -- weren’t even related to us.
 
 
 
Naturally, I immediately wrote a scathing letter to this “Spiritual Director” expressing my outrage over their posthumous enrolling of my deceased father in some sort of Catholic Religious Society and subjecting him to a papist ritual …
 
 
 
 
…  Actually, I read the document with tears in my eyes.  If 3DOP or another of our Catholic posters can give me more information  about the Sacred Heart Spiritual Society (especially how to contact them), I would appreciate it.

 

An LDS cousin of mine had  a very hard delivery with her baby in a Catholic hospital. She barely made it there in time by ambulance with no other family there. She lost a lot of blood and became unconscience and the baby was not breathing well and looked as if it would not make it. A Catholic sister, not knowing the mother's religion, decided she should baptize the baby in case it died. Fortuntely they both made it out alive.  The sister was very apologetic for baptising the baby of the Mormon mother without permission. My cousin, rather than be offended, thanked her for being so kind for thinking of her baby's eternal soul. 

I have heard of similar situations like this before in Catholic hosptials.

Edited by JAHS
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rlds_coc_lds Apprentice

rlds_coc_lds

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Regarding proxy baptism, I've been wondering something. 

 

There are definitely people who have lived in the past that there is absolutely no written record for. So proxy baptism on their behalf is not possible. What happens to those people, and if there is an alternate means of salvation for them, why is proxy baptism necessary at all? Wouldn't the same alternate means be available for all others (at the very least if they were not exposed to the Gospel)?

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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

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Regarding proxy baptism, I've been wondering something. 

 

There are definitely people who have lived in the past that there is absolutely no written record for. So proxy baptism on their behalf is not possible. What happens to those people, and if there is an alternate means of salvation for them, why is proxy baptism necessary at all? Wouldn't the same alternate means be available for all others (at the very least if they were not exposed to the Gospel)?

 

That's what the Millennium is for.  1000 years of temple work to complete all the ordinances before final judgement.  Aid from the other side for records that don't exist here.

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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

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Regarding proxy baptism, I've been wondering something. 

 

There are definitely people who have lived in the past that there is absolutely no written record for. So proxy baptism on their behalf is not possible. What happens to those people, and if there is an alternate means of salvation for them, why is proxy baptism necessary at all? Wouldn't the same alternate means be available for all others (at the very least if they were not exposed to the Gospel)?

Supposedly during the Millennium the heavens will be opened and we will have direct communication with the spirit world. We will be informed which spirits accepted the gospel so the baptisms will be performed only for them and not for all people who have died. Until then we are only asked to seek out our own kindred dead and perform the ordinance for them.

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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

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Thanks JLHPROF! Do you know of a scriptural (or other) reference for this information? 

 

Doctrines of Salvation vol. 2 (Smith, McConkie)

"Those who will be living here then will be in daily communication with those who have passed through the resurrection, and they will come with this information, this knowledge that we do not have and will give it to those who are in mortality saying, "Now go into the temples and do this work; when you get this done, we will bring you other names." And in that way every soul who is entitled to a place in the celestial kingdom of God will be ferreted out, and not one soul shall be overlooked."

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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

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Doctrines of Salvation vol. 2 (Smith, McConkie)

"Those who will be living here then will be in daily communication with those who have passed through the resurrection, and they will come with this information, this knowledge that we do not have and will give it to those who are in mortality saying, "Now go into the temples and do this work; when you get this done, we will bring you other names." And in that way every soul who is entitled to a place in the celestial kingdom of God will be ferreted out, and not one soul shall be overlooked."

 

Thank you JAHS.

 

rlds_coc_lds see also:

Brigham Young

In the Millennium, when the Kingdom of God is established on the earth in power, glory and perfection, and the reign of wickedness that has so long prevailed is subdued, the Saints of God will have the privilege of building their temples, and of entering into them, becoming, as it were, pillars in the temples of God, and they will officiate for their dead. Then we will see our friends come up, and perhaps some that we have been acquainted with here. If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is - Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them when they shall have been officiated for, and bring them up. And we will have revelations to know our forefathers clear back to Father Adam and Mother Eve, and we will enter into the temples of God and officiate for them. Then man will be sealed to man until the chain is made perfect back to Adam, so that there will be a perfect chain of Priesthood from Adam to the winding-up scene. This will be the work of the Latter-day Saints in the Millennium. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.116)

As I have frequently told you, that is the work of the Millennium. It is the work that has to be performed by the seed of Abraham, the chosen seed, the royal seed, the blessed of the Lord, those the Lord made covenants with. They will step forth, and save every son and daughter of Adam who will receive salvation here on the earth; and all the spirits in the spirit world will be preached to, conversed with, and the principles of salvation carried to them, that they may have the privilege of receiving the Gospel; and they will have plenty of children here on the earth to officiate for them in those ordinances of the Gospel that pertain to the flesh. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.403)

We are trying to save the living and the dead. The living can have their choice, the dead have not. Millions of them died without the Gospel, without the Priesthood, and without the opportunities that we enjoy. We shall go forth in the name of Israel's God and attend to the ordinances for them. And through the Millennium, the thousand years that the people will love and serve God, we will build temples and officiate therein for those who have slept for hundreds and thousands of years -- those who would have received the truth if they had had the opportunity; and we will bring them up, and form the chain entire, back to Adam. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.404)

John Taylor

We read sometimes about the millennium, But what do we know about it? It is a time when this work will be going on, and temples, thousands of them, will be reared for the accomplishment of the objects designed, in which communications from the heavens will be received in regard to our labors, how we may perform them, and for whom. This is the work devolving upon us. (The Gospel Kingdom, p.287)

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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

Regarding proxy baptism, I've been wondering something.

There are definitely people who have lived in the past that there is absolutely no written record for. So proxy baptism on their behalf is not possible. What happens to those people, and if there is an alternate means of salvation for them, why is proxy baptism necessary at all? Wouldn't the same alternate means be available for all others (at the very least if they were not exposed to the Gospel)?

I've wondered the same thing. My MIL has spent hundreds of hours with the extraction program, she was even awarded a certificate from the church that she put in a frame.  This before the new indexing program.  While visiting last week with her and FIL somehow we got on the subject, probably when she showed me her certificate, and she told me on some of the records there would be families with the same first name.  Because they couldn't afford to buy a different name and would use one in their family.  Has anyone heard of this before?  I guess I'm not understanding why they would have to buy names?  It was really confusing to me.  Maybe I'll ask her for more detail tonight when we go visit. 

Also in the temple, a lot of times the person I went through the temple for only had a partial name. But I always felt it would be worked out and that person was watching on the other side somehow and would be able to accept or decline.

Not exactly on topic, recently Ancestry.com got in hot water because they gave DNA to the police without a warrant, so breaking trust with those that submitted it, maybe it needs a thread. http://www.policezero.com/2015/05/05/ancestry-com-caught-sharing-customer-dna-data-with-police-with-no-warrant/

Edited by Tacenda
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