canard78 Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 Sister Wixom's talk was among my highlights. I particularly appreciated the story of the woman whose sincere questions led to a period of inactivity followed by a return based on a focus on the beliefs she had and testimony of the saviour. I thought this quote out to be added to the steady flow of memes doing the rounds:"I was willing to extend courtesy to those without doubts if they would extend courtesy to me."I also liked the clarity over a person sometimes leaving for sincere reasons and genuine questions and not through "spiritual apathy", sin, etc. Do you think this old cliché will someday be finally put to rest as an assumption about those who doubt or those who leave?
Teancum Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 Sister Wixom's talk was among my highlights. I particularly appreciated the story of the woman whose sincere questions led to a period of inactivity followed by a return based on a focus on the beliefs she had and testimony of the saviour. I thought this quote out to be added to the steady flow of memes doing the rounds:"I was willing to extend courtesy to those without doubts if they would extend courtesy to me."I also liked the clarity over a person sometimes leaving for sincere reasons and genuine questions and not through "spiritual apathy", sin, etc. Do you think this old cliché will someday be finally put to rest as an assumption about those who doubt or those who leave?Maybe some here will consider this and stop accusing doubters of bitterness and swimming in the mire or muck or not having the light and so on. 1
Teancum Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) Sister Wixom's talk was among my highlights. I particularly appreciated the story of the woman whose sincere questions led to a period of inactivity followed by a return based on a focus on the beliefs she had and testimony of the saviour. I thought this quote out to be added to the steady flow of memes doing the rounds:"I was willing to extend courtesy to those without doubts if they would extend courtesy to me."I also liked the clarity over a person sometimes leaving for sincere reasons and genuine questions and not through "spiritual apathy", sin, etc. Do you think this old cliché will someday be finally put to rest as an assumption about those who doubt or those who leave?And no I am not optimistic that the old cliche you refer to at the end of your post will go away. For many it is hard to consider anything else. Then they open the door that there may be a valid reason to leave or at least an honest one that does not involve sin, laziness, etc. heck perhaps understanding that and having sympathy about such not always being the case may have opened the door for me to some extent. Edited April 5, 2015 by Teancum
ERayR Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 And no I am not optimistic that the old cliche you refer to at the end of your post will go away. For many it is hard to consider anything else. Then they open the door that there may be a valid reason to leave or at least an honest one that does not involve sin, laziness, etc. heck perhaps understanding that and hoop ing sympathy about such not always being the case may have opened the door for me to some extent. And among the many valid reasons are those you mention.
BCSpace Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 (edited) I also liked the clarity over a person sometimes leaving for sincere reasons and genuine questions and not through "spiritual apathy", sin, etc. Do you think this old cliché will someday be finally put to rest as an assumption about those who doubt or those who leave? No, because some sort of spiritual apathy is always a part of it. It's part of human nature and can trip us up if we're not careful. Let us not confuse spiritual energy expended with being properly spiritual. Edited April 5, 2015 by BCSpace
readstoomuch Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 "Leaving" is a complex and individual concern that we should be gracious about. Watching someone go through that process is difficult, especially if you care about them. 2
Teancum Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 And among the many valid reasons are those you mention.Canard78... You see here validation. ERay just proved why members need to keep the (false) narrative up. It protects them. And protection seems to be needed.
canard78 Posted April 5, 2015 Author Posted April 5, 2015 No, because some sort of spiritual apathy is always a part of it. It's part of human nature and can trip us up if we're not careful. Let us not confuse spiritual energy expended with being properly spiritual.*sigh*
Teancum Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 No, because some sort of spiritual apathy is always a part of it. It's part of human nature and can trip us up if we're not careful. Let us not confuse spiritual energy expended with being properly spiritual.Another validation.....
The Nehor Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 Maybe some here will consider this and stop accusing doubters of bitterness and swimming in the mire or muck or not having the light and so on.If they would stop being so bitter and quit swimming in muck and mire I would treat them like those I know who have genuine doubts and do not do these things. 3
Teancum Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 If they would stop being so bitter and quit swimming in muck and mire I would treat them like those I know who have genuine doubts and do not do these things.Once again more validation of my point Canard78. Nehor I did not see such a qualification in Sister Wixom's remarks.
Tacenda Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 If they would stop being so bitter and quit swimming in muck and mire I would treat them like those I know who have genuine doubts and do not do these things.Everyone "doubts" differently!
Teancum Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Everyone "doubts" differently! But Nehor figures he can use it as an excuse to abuse if they don't handle their doubts like he thinks they should.
JLHPROF Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 I also liked the clarity over a person sometimes leaving for sincere reasons and genuine questions and not through "spiritual apathy", sin, etc. This is not an either/or situation and pretending it's such is false. People can leave for sincere reasons/genuine questions and still suffer spiritual apathy/sin. I agree that it's wrong to assume such, but it is just as wrong to assume people leaving AREN'T under a false spirit sometimes. There is as much variety in doubters as there is in converts. But the first is heading away from the gospel, the other towards. If we truly believe in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ how can we be expected to support those moving away from it as if that's a good thing?
The Nehor Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Once again more validation of my point Canard78. Nehor I did not see such a qualification in Sister Wixom's remarks.It was a tacit qualification.But Nehor figures he can use it as an excuse to abuse if they don't handle their doubts like he thinks they should.The day I need an excuse to be abusive is the day I have lost my edge. 1
Glenn101 Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 To me, it does not really matter why people leave, i.e. what their source of doubts are. Since we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, I see no reason to dwell on that aspect of it, and spiritual pathy is a part of most of our lives to one extent or another. However, a person will not find answers to their doubts here. There are some really intelligent, informed, and educated posters on this board, some of whom seem to be in both camps, i.e. pretty strong believers and pretty strong doubters. So maybe that is a wash. However, the source of spiritual answers needs to be from a spiritual source. That is where the scriptures all point us, and the direction that some of the talks in the Conference also point us. Either the Jesus is the Son of God and has redeemed us or He did not. Either The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the restored gospel, or it is not. Either James 1st Chapter, fifth verse is scripture, or it is not. Either "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" or not. (Moroni 10:5) In the mean time, until all have come to that knowledge, it is incumbent upon those who do truly believe to strengthen those who do have doubts. That is what Christ told Peter, "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren" in Luke 22:32. It is really difficult for anyone to traverse a burned bridge. The fire can start from either side, or both sides. Glenn 2
ERayR Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Canard78... You see here validation. ERay just proved why members need to keep the (false) narrative up. It protects them. And protection seems to be needed. Wrong again. I don't need any reason for someone elses defection. They do not need to answer to me. I have told and do tell all who do not wish to stay then don't I don't really care what your reason. By all means find something that makes you a better person. I simply noted that those were two amongst many real reasons for leaving. Just don't come back telling me how wrong I am.
Teancum Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 It was a tacit qualification.The day I need an excuse to be abusive is the day I have lost my edge. Too bad. I know there was a time you were a much nicer fellow.
rockpond Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 No, because some sort of spiritual apathy is always a part of it. It's part of human nature and can trip us up if we're not careful. Let us not confuse spiritual energy expended with being properly spiritual.When my faith started to collapse, I was serving as an early morning seminary teacher and spending hours each night in preparation. I was having amazing spiritual experiences both with my class and in my personal study. There was no spiritual apathy involved.
Rain Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 "I was willing to extend courtesy to those without doubts if they would extend courtesy to me." I love how this speaks to both sides. Both sides should show that courtesy. I have seen doubters come out swinging and patient believers turning the other cheek and loving them anyway. I also have seen questioners who get pounded into the ground for having honest, sincere questions. When both sides are courteous to each other then there is still love there whether the person ends up leaving or staying. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I agree with Sister Wixom. I also agree with Elder Holland: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng. Edited April 6, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Boanerges Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I didn't find doubts, they found me. I was serving as Gospel Doctrine teacher, a calling I loved. I diligently prepared my lessons, read lesson scriptures and other scriptures daily, prayed all the time (several times per day, including before studying and doing lesson preps) we had FHE and family prayer, etc, etc., etc. I was a regular feeler of the Spirit. There was no spiritual apathy involved in any form. Nevertheless, I am a prodigal and now a high councilor. I am likewise not in a state of spiritual apathy and relish writing talks, which I feel have each been spiritually influenced to great extent. I can't say I feel the Spirit as often as I did before, but I do regularly feel what I believe is the Spirit. While it can happen while listening to a talk (as it did during the Sunday Morning Session today), writing or giving a talk, praying, or reading the scriptures (unlike the sister in the story, I still prefer the Bible but I do read the BoM) but it can also happen at almost any other time. I did like Sr. Wixom's talk, I also liked Elder Nielson's talk - he who recognized we're all prodigal sons and we're all on the same path. For those like me who doubt, this Sunday Morning Session was a spiritual feast. Doubts or no doubts, if I experience spiritual apathy I don't recognize it - and neither does the Spirit. (I agree with Elder Holland, too, Kenngo. And I also loved one of the best Easter talks I have ever heard, given by him in the Sunday Morning Session.) Edited April 6, 2015 by Boanerges 1
The Nehor Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Too bad. I know there was a time you were a much nicer fellow. Yes, but I was in a better mood yesterday.
readstoomuch Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) So, I am going to interject some more thoughts into this discussion. Maybe, I should quit while I am ahead, but here goes. All or nothing statements about the Church or any topic isn`t usually a good idea, ie either the Book of Mormon is exactly what it says or it is the greatest deception by the devil known to mankind, either the Church is God`s one true Church or it is a blaphemous delusion thrust on people. Those aren`t exact quotes, but they sound like things I have heard people say, especially general authorities. I remember when I was doubting and I would come across tidbits about Church history and doctrine, usually some of the same old chestnuts we talk about today. Polyandry, Adam-God theory, BoM archaeology, Mountain Meadows Massacre, origin of the Book of Abraham. It was very hard to process the information and then hear an all or nothing statement. Usually the Church came out bad when I used that reasoning, especially when I was taught things differently before my mission. On my mission I read The Mormon Experience, The Story of the Latter Day Saints and Joseph Smith, the First Mormon to name a few. Then I would hear people say things that didn't agree with my reading. None of those books is anti-Mormon, but sometimes members would disagree vehemently about items I would bring up and say they came from anti material. Imagine when I would show them that Leonard Arrington was the Church Historian. Jaws drop, flies going in and out of their mouth. The Church is spending a bunch of time talking about doubters. The advice about not judging is so important. Listening to what the other person has to say is also important. Don`t blow them off and if you don`t know the answer then get them to someone who does. Just because their issues aren`t a big deal for you doesn`t mean they weren`t the straw that broke the camels back for someone else. Try to get them to spend as much time reading the scriptures as they do their alternate material. They will often go for that. Avoid using all or nothing statements. Avoid assuming that they are only doubting because they have sinned. Pray with and for them. Emphasize Christ and his Atonement. Admit that apostles and prophets are people that are human and disappoint at times. Being honest about those things and touchy history helps bring back trust into the person`s mind. Don`t give up on them, but also know when to back off. Finally, we need to bring up these potential landmines before people reach 18. They discuss them in seminary now and bits here and there need to be in the curriculum (IMO). It sure would have helped me. Edited April 6, 2015 by readstoomuch 1
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