If Joseph Had Survived Carthage Jail...

[rpn]

I'm not sure the colonization of western america would have happened.   Brigham Young's talent was in the organizing.

[pogi]

Doubtful - Joseph Smith taught that a man wasn't worthy to hold office if he ignored it after having it properly taught.

 

I think it is presentism to interpret that quote in the context of current observance.  I think the word of wisdom was given and taught much in the same light that a good healthy, whole foods diet is taught today.  To ignore it outright is detrimental, but to observe healthy eating habits does not preclude us from having an occasional big-mac or soda.  That is how we should take that quote in my opinion.  It should be taken in the context of how Joseph observed the word of wisdom himself.  Remember, he was known to march down main street on a horse smoking a cigar and was not averse to an occasional beer himself.  I can't speak to his diet of meats, that would be interesting to find out.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any beef (pun intended) with the word of wisdom as currently observed.  I simply think that it came about as an agreement between the brethren with the sustaining vote of the church to make such binding.  I don't know if Joseph would have pursued the path of making it binding.  I think the Lord is willing to make such things binding if we so desire, but it was not originally his mind to do so, nor do I think it was Joseph's mind to do so either.  

Edited February 22, 2015 by pogi

[Jeanne]

Well...I am for exciting books and I wish someone was serious about the "what if" ....I have always wondered myself.  Anyway, on an eventual level, I see a huge tug of war between Joseph and Brigham..a damaged friendship that also lets Emma have her say...

 

And children..a lot more children.

[Thinking]

I'm not sure the colonization of western america would have happened.   Brigham Young's talent was in the organizing.

 

This statement belongs in the Myth And False Traditions In The Church thread.

[Ham Clam]

The RLDS/CoC wouldn't exist? Or it would have formed in some very different combination.

[theplains]

Not sure that President Smith ever taught the Curse upon Cain

was dark skin, and that the wife of Ham brought that curse aboard

the ark, etc., etc.

 

Read chapters 15/16 of The Way to Perfection.

 

Jim

[theplains]

If Joseph had survived Carthage.... (help me write that novel).

 

UD

 

They would have tried to kill him again for his polygamy.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Uncle Dale]

Read chapters 15/16 of The Way to Perfection.

 

Jim

 

Sorry -- I only have excerpts from the book, and my GospeLink

subscription ran out ages ago.

 

Joseph no doubt accepted the explanation given for the sons

of Canaan having dark skin. But, as I said previously, I doubt

very very much that he could have discerned the respective

lineages of a Zulu, a Fijian, a Sundanese and an Australian.

All had black skin -- all had the less than sharply pointed nose.

 

But, if Joseph Fielding Smith was accurately relaying verbal

doctrine, passed down from Joseph Smith himself, there's this:

 

 

Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have came into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning....

 

But what a contrast! The sons of Seth, Enoch and Noah honored by the blessings and rights of Priesthood! ... And the sons of Cain, denied the priesthood; not privileged to receive the covenants of glory in the kingdom of God! ...we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren—children of God—notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness "

 

How on earth the latter Mr. Smith could have discerned the lineage

of the four examples I've quoted, I know not. And, besides those,

I could have listed dark-skinned peoples in India, Malaysia, Siam,

the Philippines, and elsewhere -- all of whom would have presented

physical features practically indistinguishable to unlearned 19th

century frontiersmen.

 

If dark skin was a mark, meant to distinguish one particular lineage

of human beings, even Joseph Smith would have eventually agreed

that it was a mighty poor way of separating out white and delightsome

sons of Seth, Enoch and Noah, from inferior creatures.

 

Was Joseph Smith, Jr. a racist (perhaps even more so than JFS?) --

I don't know. But if he truly and sincerely sought wisdom on the

matter, I'd have to believe that his statements would have come out

sounding more tolerant and congenial than the "Way to Perfection" guy.

 

UD

Edited February 22, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Tacenda]

Maybe 120 men, women, and children would have crossed Mountain Meadows, safe and sound.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

Maybe 120 men, women, and children would have crossed Montain Meadows safe and sound.

 

Not convinced of that one either.

[Uncle Dale]

Not convinced of that one either.

 

The one time Joseph Smith, jr. had an armed military

force, under his command and secreted out of sight,

was during the 1834 Zion's Camp expedition. Had he

wanted to shed blood, there were plenty of opportunities.

But the only deaths resulting from that venture were

among his own troops.

 

Granted -- the Iron County Militia of 1857 were a different

lot, and not under the direct, personal command of a high

ranking LDS leader. Dan Wells did not ride down to Cedar

City to order his latter day dragoons around like Smith did

going down to Missouri.

 

But, had it been Joseph, sitting in the Church President's

office, in Great Salt Lake City, I imagine he would have made

certain that Lieutenant-General Wells kept better track of 

the musters down in Dixie. And Elders Haight, Dame and

Higbee would have suspected that Joseph's seer-stone,

and periodic revelations from On High were sufficient to

uncover any illegal troop movements into any high meadows.

 

I doubt the would have dared open fire upon the hapless

Fancher party. The Holder of the Keys to the Seventh and

Last Dispensation of the Everlasting Gospel wouldn't have

let them get away with bloody murder.

 

UD

[Scott Lloyd]

The one time Joseph Smith, jr. had an armed military

force, under his command and secreted out of sight,

was during the 1834 Zion's Camp expedition. Had he

wanted to shed blood, there were plenty of opportunities.

But the only deaths resulting from that venture were

among his own troops.

 

Granted -- the Iron County Militia of 1857 were a different

lot, and not under the direct, personal command of a high

ranking LDS leader. Dan Wells did not ride down to Cedar

City to order his latter day dragoons around like Smith did

going down to Missouri.

 

But, had it been Joseph, sitting in the Church President's

office, in Great Salt Lake City, I imagine he would have made

certain that Lieutenant-General Wells kept better track of 

the musters down in Dixie. And Elders Haight, Dame and

Higbee would have suspected that Joseph's seer-stone,

and periodic revelations from On High were sufficient to

uncover any illegal troop movements into any high meadows.

 

I doubt the would have dared open fire upon the hapless

Fancher party. The Holder of the Keys to the Seventh and

Last Dispensation of the Everlasting Gospel wouldn't have

let them get away with bloody murder.

 

UD

Is Cedar City considered Dixie? I thought you had to get way down to St. George for that.

[Uncle Dale]

Is Cedar City considered Dixie? I thought you had to get way down to St. George for that.

 

Yeah -- technically -- but we used to crank up the old Dodge's

air-conditioning a notch or two, coming down from there, about

where Shurtz Cr. crosses the road. I suppose Kanarraville is

about as far north as a cotton plant could be expected to survive.

 

Dunno if the Washington County defenders had wisdom enough

to realize that the real threat would have been from California

volunteers (had it ever come) and not from Johnston's Army

cutting across the wastelands and sneaking in through Bryce

(or masquerading as Arkansas farmers). Hopefully the St. George

boys never hooked up with Major Lee's ill-advised bunch,

 

UD

[theplains]

Sorry -- I only have excerpts from the book, and my GospeLink

subscription ran out ages ago.

 

Was Joseph Smith, Jr. a racist (perhaps even more so than JFS?) --

I don't know. But if he truly and sincerely sought wisdom on the

matter, I'd have to believe that his statements would have come out

sounding more tolerant and congenial than the "Way to Perfection" guy.

 

UD

 

I believe that Joseph Smith, and the other LDS leaders, were not racist. I think he

was not killed for his views on race but rather on his practice of polygamy.  As for

the "The Way to Perfection guy", this is none other than a former President of the

LDS Church :-)

 

Regarding the other query, I posted some links to scribd that has scanned pages.

 

The Way to Perfection

Non-segregation-Answers-to-Gospel-Questions-volume-2

The-Lamanites-Answers-to-Gospel-Questions-volume-3

Priesthood-Restriction-Answers-to-Gospel-Questions-volume-5

 

Sorry to digress away from the forum topic but I wanted to address your inability to

view the info.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[JLHPROF]

 

I think he was not killed for his views on race but rather on his practice of polygamy.

 

 

 

Nah, he was killed over politics and money - the same reasons that usually cause such actions.  They may have used "polygamy" as an excuse, but it was politics and money in the end.

[Uncle Dale]

 

I believe that Joseph Smith, and the other LDS leaders, were not racist. I think he

was not killed for his views on race but rather on his practice of polygamy.

...

 

 

Suppose, then, that the Church leaders had NOT discontinued all

the stakes (other than Nauvoo and Montrose) and the Saints and

future converts had been able to "gather" to smaller, more evenly

distributed congregations than just Church headquarters.

 

Suppose that the Saints in Hancock County, Illinois had remained

a minority, and had not taken over the local governmental offices;

had not entered into Illinois political partisanship; had not obtained

and exercised all the special privileges granted in the Nauvoo charters

(such as establishing a Mormon army and Mormon legal courts).

 

Suppose polygamy would have been confined to the topmost leaders

(as it pretty much was, back in 1843 and 1844) and thus presented

no more of a "public face" than did that of the neighboring Indian tribes

(and the occasional frontier bigamist, who left one woman for another).

 

Suppose all of THAT had been the situation of Joseph Smith and his

followers in the summer of 1844.

 

Who, then, would have possessed a motive to murder both him and his

brother -- and to make a serious attempt at assassinating John Taylor?

 

Why?

 

I don't understand your argument.

 

UD

[mormonnewb]

Great topic!

My reflexive thought is that the Church would be much smaller and would likely not exist today if not for the martyrdom.

1). Martyrdom can produce devoted followers because it provides the ultimate example of devotion to the cause.

2). The martyrdom created a deification of sorts for JS. It also stopped time for him in much the same way that MLK's assassination stopped the clock on the allegations of his infidelity. Had that fact been widely known BEFORE King's death, it's unlikely that he would have been ... in the words of my intellectual hero ... "Santa Clausified." In the same way, JS' death seemed to stop the clock on allegations of his polygamy (at least, INSIDE the Church).

3). Mormonism may have survived better than its contemporary rivals because it was able to break free and establish its own society for almost a century. This is the reason that the early Pilgrims came here (they had already achieved religious tolerance when they left England for Denmark). Now, perhaps JS would have moved the saints out to the wilderness, but It seems unlikely given his plan to be the U.S. President (it usually helps to have your biggest supporters within the actual boundaries of the country you hope to govern).

Edited February 25, 2015 by mormonnewb

[JLHPROF]

Great topic!

My reflexive thought is that the Church would be much smaller and would likely not exist today if not for the martyrdom.

1). Martyrdom can produce devoted followers because it provides the ultimate example of devotion to the cause.

2). The martyrdom created a deification of sorts for JS. It also stopped time for him in much the same way that MLK's assassination stopped the clock on the allegations of his infidelity. Had that fact been widely known BEFORE King's death, it's unlikely that he would have been ... in the words of my intellectual hero ... "Santa Clausified." In the same way, JS' death seemed to stop the clock on allegations of his polygamy (at least, INSIDE the Church).

3). Mormonism may have survived better than its contemporary rivals because it was able to break free and establish its own society for almost a century. This is the reason that the early Pilgrims came here (they had already achieved religious tolerance when they left England for Denmark). Now, perhaps JS would have moved the saints out to the wilderness, but It seems unlikely given his plan to be the U.S. President (it usually helps to have your biggest supporters within the actual boundaries of the country you hope to govern).

 

Based on this line of thinking, I wonder if there's any evidence of a bump in conversions following the martyrdom?  Did it really drive converts and thus drive Church growth?

Or did the Church grow the way it did for other reasons?

[Calm]

Great topic!

My reflexive thoughIn the same way, JS' death seemed to stop the clock on allegations of his polygamy (at least, INSIDE the Church

What do you mean by this? It was widely known in Utah early on that JS had multiple wives, especially when the court cases and JS III came out to investigate.

[mormonnewb]

Based on this line of thinking, I wonder if there's any evidence of a bump in conversions following the martyrdom? Did it really drive converts and thus drive Church growth?

Or did the Church grow the way it did for other reasons?

New converts may have been a part of the equation but I think the bigger part would be in creating "stickiness" among the already converted. In fact, that is probably our most distinctive feature even today. Mormons don't view our church as just another "brand" of Christianity. It's Mormonism or nothing.

I suspect that made a lot of difference because without that brand loyalty, few would have been willing to make the trek to Utah.

[mormonnewb]

What do you mean by this? It was widely known in Utah early on that JS had multiple wives, especially when the court cases and JS III came out to investigate.

It was widely know well AFTER his death (and even then our Mormon cousins would have disagreed vehemently). However, before his death, it was not so widely known. And even now, BY's polygamy is a lot better known inside the Church than JS'.

Think of it in terms of JFK and Clinton. They were guilty of the same general misbehavior while in office, yet Clinton is much more closely tied to his indiscretions. I think that the major reason is that JFK was already a martyr by the time his activities came to light. People are much willing to accept flaws in a dead hero than a living leader.

[And no, I'm not arguing that JS was wrong about polygamy. In just saying that his polygamy would have SEEMED wrong to most others.]

Edited February 25, 2015 by mormonnewb

[pogi]

New converts may have been a part of the equation but I think the bigger part would be in creating "stickiness" among the already converted. In fact, that is probably our most distinctive feature even today. Mormons don't view our church as just another "brand" of Christianity. It's Mormonism or nothing.

I suspect that made a lot of difference because without that brand loyalty, few would have been willing to make the trek to Utah.

 

I think we lost numbers from the martyrdom due to the split, I don't see evidence for greater conversion (not a lot of potential converts in that part of Mexico).  I have never heard of anybody being converted due to the martyrdom.  It is not even mentioned in missionary discussions. 

 

As far as "stickiness" goes, the Mormons already viewed it as "Mormonism or nothing", read the journals.  That is how my ancestors viewed it anyway.

 

Point 3 - If you study the history of the saints (pre-martyrdom) you will find that they were loyal and would have been happy to follow the prophet wherever he lead them, as they already had done several times.  Look at what they had already sacrificed.  Many having already left their homes, families and possessions back in Europe and elsewhere.  A little treck to Utah was nothing compared to what they already sacrificed to follow the prophet.

Edited February 25, 2015 by pogi

[mormonnewb]

I think we lost numbers from the martyrdom due to the split, I don't see evidence for greater conversion (not a lot of potential converts in that part of Mexico). I have never heard of anybody being converted due to the martyrdom. It is not even mentioned in missionary discussions.

As far as "stickiness" goes, the Mormons already viewed it as "Mormonism or nothing", read the journals. That is how my ancestors viewed it anyway.

Point 3 - If you study the history of the saints (pre-martyrdom) you will find that they were loyal and would have been happy to follow the prophet wherever he lead them, as they already had done several times. Look at what they had already sacrificed. Many having already left their homes, families and possessions back in Europe and elsewhere. A little treck to Utah was nothing compared to what they already sacrificed to follow the prophet.

As for Point 3, I agree that they would have followed JS anywhere he led. I just doubt he would have led them out of the US to an unincorporated area given his political aspirations.

As to your other points, I agree that many Mormons had already proved their "stickiness." Yet, in fairness, there were probably some local converts who weren't as "sold" on the restored gospel. Perhaps, they joined the Church for the hymns or because the really likes do carrots in their Jell-O. I imagine that the escalating violence against the saints in the wake of the martyrdom served to separate the wheat from the tares.

Edited February 25, 2015 by mormonnewb

[Uncle Dale]

As for Point 3, I agree that they would have followed JS anywhere he led. I just doubt he would have led them out of the US to an unincorporated area given his political aspirations.

 

.

The original Jackson County Temple was to have been built

"in the midst of the Lamanites." Eventually the wording of that

revelation was changed to the "borders of the Lamanites."

This effectively removed the site for the anticipated return

of Enoch's City and the Second Coming, from Indian Territory

(what is now  Kansas) to what was then (and still is) Missouri.

 

Why there?

 

Because the Lamanites were to join with their brethren,

like "young lions" and triumph in battle over the wicked

Gentiles --- in a great war which would begin in the state

of South Carolina, and end with the latter day Israelites 

in control of the remaining government(s) of the Americas.

 

So, would have Joseph Smith, Jr. (had he lived a little longer)

counseled the Saints to migrate to the tops of the Rocky

Mountains, and there gather, in anticipation of that coming

struggle, alongside the Lamanites, against Satan and his minions?

 

I wonder...

 

Oh, Zion!

Dear Zion...

 

UD

Edited February 25, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[will227457]

I think things would have gone basically exactly the same...except when Joseph was the one to restore the new doctrines that Brigham revealed (like Adam-God) that people would have accepted them more easily. 

Adam -God...not doctrine....