If Joseph Had Survived Carthage Jail...

[Uncle Dale]

Bear with me for a moment or two, while I sketch out the

basis for a future Great American Novel... or maybe not.

 

It's July of 1844. Joseph Smith, Jr., though very badly wounded,

has escaped the assassination attempt. Governor Ford has

managed to tamp the danger of imminent Gentile-Saint violence

down just a little. An uneasy calm ensues in Hancock County.

 

Joseph regains consciousnesses, and summons up enough 

strength to hear Gov. Ford articulate a possible solution.

The Mormons might stay in place long enough to finish up

their temple and to make arrangements to evacuate Nauvoo

under a State-enforced cease-fire -- But go they must; soon.

 

Given such a change in history, what changes to LDS doctrine

would have occurred, under Joseph's continued leadership,

from 1844 onward -- past his natural death in old age -- and

into the 20th and 21st centuries, in order to bring Mormon

religion to essentially its modern features, practices & beliefs?

 

I suppose that a revelation directing the Saints westward would

still have come about (similar to Brigham's one addition to the

D&C) -- and some supervision of the emigrant Saints necessary.

 

Once in "The Valley," there might be revelations in regard to

the Endowment House and the first few temples.

 

But what else?

 

What remained to be revealed, in the "restoration of all things,"

that was not already known and accepted in mid-1844?

 

If Joseph had survived Carthage.... (help me write that novel).

 

UD

[Sevenbak]

"... if thou livest until thou art 85 years old thou shalt see the face of the son of man, therefore let this suffice and trouble me no more on this matter."

[Uncle Dale]

"... if thou livest until thou art 85 years old thou shalt see the face of the son of man, therefore let this suffice and trouble me no more on this matter."

 

I don't think I want the novel to go quite that far. Let the good brother

go to the celestial realms shortly after his 84th birthday -- just before

Utah celebrates its new statehood status.

 

And, let's not leave Mother Smith back in Nauvoo -- she gets to see

the Great Salt Lake and seagulls munching crickets, just like all the

rest of the faithful...

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

I think things would have gone basically exactly the same...except when Joseph was the one to restore the new doctrines that Brigham revealed (like Adam-God) that people would have accepted them more easily. 

[Avatar4321]

Then I wouldn't have a testimony since it was the martyrdom that brought the Spirits confirmation.

[rpn]

Men of color would not have been denied the priesthood.

[Uncle Dale]

Men of color would not have been denied the priesthood.

I suppose that is true. And those early slaveholders in

Deseret would have been paid off by the Church, to

let the bondsmen go free. That solution to things was

articulated in Smith's 1844 presidential platform.

But I still doubt that any black faces would have been

seen in quorums above the tenth of the seventies.

And I'm not positive that Brother Joseph's vision

extended to having black faces in the highest level

of the CK -- he was a man of the 1840s after all.

Brigham might still have become the second

President, but only at a very, very advanced age,

and after David Hyrum was safely put away in

some sunny California asylum (and Joseph III

had still started up a church to rival his dad's)

Oh, it's fun to speculate... Not sure about the

Adam=God, blood atonement, etc. tho.

UD

[JLHPROF]

Men of color would not have been denied the priesthood.

 

I don't think that's accurate.

[carbon dioxide]

I don't think that's accurate.

That assumes that the ban did not originate from God.  If it did originate from God, perhaps nothing would have been different.

[Uncle Dale]

That assumes that the ban did not originate from God.  If it did originate from God, perhaps nothing would have been different.

 

 

Not sure that President Smith ever taught the Curse upon Cain

was dark skin, and that the wife of Ham brought that curse aboard

the ark, etc., etc.

 

His younger brother, William, seems to have been "color-blind"

when it came to such issues -- at least that was the case when

he was tarrying in and around Cincinnati.

 

I don't know much about Joseph's claims to discernment, but

I'd wager that if a Zulu, a Fijian, a Sudanese and an Australian

aborigine had been brought before him in Nauvoo, he would have

treated them all the same. Hyrum was a Patriarch -- so it would

have been interesting to see what lineage he would have divulged

in blessing four such converts.

 

Then again, I wasn't there and can't say.

 

UD

 

ps. In my novel, poor Hyrum (and John Taylor) do not survive

Carthage Jail -- so there would still be "martyrs" to the cause.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Smith would have wound up with like 78 wives.

[JLHPROF]

Not sure that President Smith ever taught the Curse upon Cain

was dark skin, and that the wife of Ham brought that curse aboard

the ark, etc., etc.

 

Well then why would he have taught segregation in marriage, which we know he taught?

[Coreyb]

Well then why would he have taught segregation in marriage, which we know he taught?

Conventional wisdom. Cultural bias

[pogi]

He obviously would have been elected as President of the United States, Emma would have been the first lady, Fanny Alger the second lady...down to the thirty-third, or so, lady.  

Edited February 22, 2015 by pogi

[Uncle Dale]

He obviously would have been elected as President of the United States, Emma would have been the first lady, Fanny Alger the second lady...down to the thirty-third, or so, lady.  

 

 

You're being naughty again.

 

UD

[Scott Lloyd]

Bear with me for a moment or two, while I sketch out the

basis for a future Great American Novel... or maybe not.

 

It's July of 1844. Joseph Smith, Jr., though very badly wounded,

has escaped the assassination attempt. Governor Ford has

managed to tamp the danger of imminent Gentile-Saint violence

down just a little. An uneasy calm ensues in Hancock County.

 

Joseph regains consciousnesses, and summons up enough 

strength to hear Gov. Ford articulate a possible solution.

The Mormons might stay in place long enough to finish up

their temple and to make arrangements to evacuate Nauvoo

under a State-enforced cease-fire -- But go they must; soon.

 

Given such a change in history, what changes to LDS doctrine

would have occurred, under Joseph's continued leadership,

from 1844 onward -- past his natural death in old age -- and

into the 20th and 21st centuries, in order to bring Mormon

religion to essentially its modern features, practices & beliefs?

 

I suppose that a revelation directing the Saints westward would

still have come about (similar to Brigham's one addition to the

D&C) -- and some supervision of the emigrant Saints necessary.

 

Once in "The Valley," there might be revelations in regard to

the Endowment House and the first few temples.

 

But what else?

 

What remained to be revealed, in the "restoration of all things,"

that was not already known and accepted in mid-1844?

 

If Joseph had survived Carthage.... (help me write that novel).

 

UD

I can give you my thoughts, but I don't think you'll find then very intriguing.

Instead of Brigham, it woould have been Joseph who led the Saints west (after all, it was he who prophesied the Saints would become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains). Joseph would have been as prolific in his practice of plural marriage as Brigham eventually was, if not more so. The practice would have been unfolded to the Church at large and openly practiced until the Lord saw fit to discontinue it.

There would have been no RLDS Church, but there still would have been schismatic breakoff groups started by people unable to endure sound doctrine.

Beyond this, things would have transpired as they in fact did: colonization, temple building, the spread of the gospel to many lands, the physical gathering to Utah until the Church was well-established, and thereafter a continued spiritual gathering to Zion with converts encouraged to remain in their own lands.

Persecution and oppression would have transpired while Joseph remained alive, even as it did when Brigham was present, for Satan and his forces fight against the church of the Lamb as they will continue to do until the millennial day.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Thinking]

He might have finished the translation of the Kinderhook plates.

[Uncle Dale]

He might have finished the translation of the Kinderhook plates.

 

The one aspect of Brother Joseph's human nature, which I

continually notice escaping everybody else's consideration,

was his sense of humor. If we read numerous published

accounts (many from non-members) he comes across as

an affable, even occasionally jolly fellow -- the kind of guy

that would laugh a little in his beer, over having named his

prize horse after an Illinois political opponent.

 

Joseph knew that his suggestion (of sending the Kinderhook

evidence off the eastern experts for their learned opinion),

would eventually result in a verdict of fraud.

 

But there was sufficient time, before any such consensus

would reach Nauvoo -- so why not have a little fun meanwhile?

 

Clayton, Taylor, and the rest of the dignitaries took him for

being dead serious -- I suspect he was chuckling up his

sleeve, seeing the Nauvoo Neighbor "fall" for the hoax.

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

I can give you my thoughts, but I don't think you'll find then very intriguing.

...

 

Oh -- but I do, Scott. I do.

 

I'd add that the Nauvoo Temple would have no doubt been re-built

much sooner -- and probably the one begun at Far West as well.

 

Johnston's Army would have never made it to Fort Bridger -- not

due to guerrilla raids, but due to astute political influence, quietly 

applied to Buchanan and a few of that fellow's close associates.

 

Or... maybe not.

 

Dale

[Kaleb Webb]

I'm convinced that if Joseph had survived Carthage, the whole polygamy thing would have gotten out to the public sooner or later, and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. 

[Uncle Dale]

I'm convinced that if Joseph had survived Carthage, the whole polygamy thing would have gotten out to the public sooner or later, and he wouldn't have been able to do a thing about it. 

 

Well, it was pretty much "out in the public" already. Bennett's book

really broke the ice -- but reporting in the regional newspapers was

getting reprinted across the nation and as far away as England.

 

William Smith made the mistake of advocating a little too strongly

for a plurality of wives, in a public sermon delivered in Nauvoo and

picked up by the press. The report got a little mangled in repetition

and editors in New England were speculating that it was Brigham

Young who was admitting saintly polygamy in Nauvoo.

 

Very shortly after the Smith brothers' deaths, Rigdon was publishing

articles about Nauvoo polygamy and doing all but screaming from the

rooftops, to convince eastern Saints that it had been Smith's fault.

 

What surviving Carthage would have done for Joseph, would have

been some generation of sympathy for the almost-assassinated leader,

struggling back to health, and winning over an even deeper admiration

of his core supporters. It would have been the perfect time for him to

have cashed in on that public sympathy and adherents' defense of

their leader, to admit that some polygamy had been taking place, and

that it was full defensible and divinely commanded.

 

If the Saints had already made a commitment to avoid involvement in

Illinois politics and to depart the state, I doubt there would have been

any bigamy charges brought up against them.

 

Few folks recall that Joseph had been to the Carthage court barely

a few days before the Expositor crisis, to face in indictment for adultery

based upon his supposed condoning of "seven wives for one man."

And yet, his lawyers got the initial hearing put off for several months.

I assume they could have done as much for the whole saintly population

of Hancock County, had the Mormons actively been preparing to leave.

 

There is something of a false belief frequently cited, that the assassination

at Carthage was directly a result of Mormon polygamy. I was not. It was

more an outcome of Mormon involvement in politics and government,

than it was an outcome of multiple wives reports. Destruction of the

Expositor press brought a greater interest in that paper's polygamy

charges, than if Smith and the city council had simply closed the

office with a court order. But since the Expositor had been exposing

Nauvoo polygamy, that minor element of Gentile-Mormon tension got

temporarily blown out of all reasonable proportion. It did not directly

cause the assassination, but it was a factor by popular association.

 

I think Smith possessed the skills necessary for revealing at least

some aspects of plural sealings, without that confession being any

more damaging than it was a few years later in Utah Territory.

 

UD

[pogi]

the kind of guy

that would laugh a little in his beer, over having named his

prize horse after an Illinois political opponent.

 

Perhaps the word of wisdom would have remained as it was originally written - a greeting given not by commandment or constraint. 

[Uncle Dale]

Perhaps the word of wisdom would have remained as it was originally written - a greeting given not by commandment or constraint.

If I recall correctly, most of the Reorganized LDS, for most

of their existence as a sect, had no objection to mild barley

drinks, containing a little alcohol. A glass of 3.2 Utah beer

would have been censored, more to avoid "the appearance

of evil," than due to any Divine prohibition.

I suppose that President Smith looked at the matter in

much the same light. An occasional "small beer" did not

offend the God of Israel, so much as consuming piles

of roast beef in mid-August would have (or at least

would have been counseled against).

But Deseret was a different sort of critter.

UD

[JLHPROF]

Perhaps the word of wisdom would have remained as it was originally written - a greeting given not by commandment or constraint. 

 

Doubtful - Joseph Smith taught that a man wasn't worthy to hold office if he ignored it after having it properly taught.

[juliann]

 

 

There is something of a false belief frequently cited, that the assassination

at Carthage was directly a result of Mormon polygamy. I was not. It was

more an outcome of Mormon involvement in politics and government,

than it was an outcome of multiple wives reports. Destruction of the

Expositor press brought a greater interest in that paper's polygamy

charges, than if Smith and the city council had simply closed the

office with a court order. But since the Expositor had been exposing

Nauvoo polygamy, that minor element of Gentile-Mormon tension got

temporarily blown out of all reasonable proportion. It did not directly

cause the assassination, but it was a factor by popular association.

 

I think Smith possessed the skills necessary for revealing at least

some aspects of plural sealings, without that confession being any

more damaging than it was a few years later in Utah Territory.

 

UD

 

Paul Reeve's Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness has to be included in any discussion about polygamy or race from here on out. It is a game changer.