If Joseph Had Survived Carthage Jail...

[JLHPROF]

Adam -God...not doctrine....

Your opinion, not fact.

[Uncle Dale]

Your opinion, not fact.

 

"Follow The Prophet."

 

"Sustain The Brethren"

 

"Beware of apostate teachings..."

 

doctrine?

 

fact?

 

opinion?

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

"Follow The Prophet."  Check - not doing anything forbidden

 

"Sustain The Brethren" Check - recognize and support them in their calling

 

"Beware of apostate teachings..." Subjective - Brigham was not an apostate

 

doctrine? Check - even if not official

 

fact? Won't know till we cross the veil or further revelation comes

 

opinion? Whose?

 

UD

[will227457]

Your opinion, not fact.

No it is fact that it is not doctrine not my opinion.

 

if we look at the history of the church and "official" doctrines that have been established a 3 step method is followed. 1. Approval of the first presidency, 2. quorum of the twelve have to agree, 3. accepted in a sustaining vote by the membership.

 

 

this has happened 6x in the history of the church.....Adam God theory was not one of them.

[JLHPROF]

No it is fact that it is not doctrine not my opinion.

 

if we look at the history of the church and "official" doctrines that have been established a 3 step method is followed. 1. Approval of the first presidency, 2. quorum of the twelve have to agree, 3. accepted in a sustaining vote by the membership.

 

 

this has happened 6x in the history of the church.....Adam God theory was not one of them.

 

No it is not "official" doctrine.  It is still doctrine...

[Alan]

I am not convinced the Saints would have left Nauvoo had Joseph survived.

Joseph didn't have the organisational qualities of Brigham.

Converts would have flooded in to Nauvoo and surrounding areas from Britain and Scandinavia and the Mormon population would have grown large enough not to be messed with.

On the other hand, without the isolation of the Rocky Mountains, the Saints would have been more influenced by Gentile society, and particularly Gentile Christendom, so their unique theology (much of which developed in Utah) would be somewhat watered down because it would prove impossible to get the Saints to accept and believe some of that stuff. 

Plural marriage would have been abandoned many years sooner than it was (possibly straightaway if William Marks is to be believed - and I think he probably should be), and the church today would likely resemble the RLDS Church of, say, 40 years ago.

[Uncle Dale]

I am not convinced the Saints would have left Nauvoo had Joseph survived.

Joseph didn't have the organisational qualities of Brigham.

Converts would have flooded in to Nauvoo and surrounding areas from Britain and Scandinavia and the Mormon population would have grown large enough not to be messed with.

....

In order to have grown "large enough not to be messed with" the

city-state of Nauvoo (on the Illinois side) and Montrose (on the

Iowa side of the river) would have had to become more populous

than the State of South Carolina, which President Jackson was

ready to "mess with" in 1832-33, and President Lincoln did mess

with 30 years later. Larger than the Republic of Mexico, which

the Gentiles (and one battalion of Saints) were patriotically happy

to mess with only a few months after Smith's assassination.

The apostolic instruction from the podium, during the Spring 1844

Conference talks, made it crystal clear that the Kingdom of God

was to be a political as well as a religious kingdom. A political

state with its own army and its own nation-to-nation level of

interaction with other countries, a veritable State of Deseret.

The secret Quorum of Fifty already had ambassadors to the

Republic of Texas in place before Joseph died. Perhaps the

Nauvoo Legion and the Texas militia/rangers could have joined

in some sort of military alliance, but even that level of strength

would not have been sufficient to overcome any concerted

Gentile opposition.

Simply glance at the tactics Grant used to take Vicksburg, and

you'll see why Nauvoo and Montrose were indefensible.

UD

Edited February 26, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[theplains]

Nah, he was killed over politics and money - the same reasons that usually cause such actions.  They may have used "polygamy" as an excuse, but it was politics and money in the end.

 

So he wouldn't be a martyr in the sense of 'Christian' martyr.

 

Regards,

Jim

[theplains]

Suppose all of THAT had been the situation of Joseph Smith and his

followers in the summer of 1844.

 

Who, then, would have possessed a motive to murder both him and his

brother -- and to make a serious attempt at assassinating John Taylor?

 

Why?

 

I don't understand your argument.

 

UD

 

I read somewhere that the townsfolk were angry that they were losing their daughters to

polygamous marriages.

 

Jim

[JLHPROF]

So he wouldn't be a martyr in the sense of 'Christian' martyr.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

Whyever not?  Because the motivations of his killers weren't religious?  I don't think when the early Christians were being fed to the Lions that the fact the Emperors were doing it for entertainment made them any less martyrs.

 

Joseph was killed because they wanted to end Mormonism.  The reason they wanted to end Mormonism was to end it's political power and to gain the Mormons property, just as the Missourians had done in Far West.  12,000 saints who would do whatever Joseph asked of them scared the local non-Mormons.  Polygamy and the printing press were just excuses.

 

He was every bit a martyr - someone that died because of the religion/religious group he professed.  That is the only requirement to be a martyr.  To die because of your belonging to a cause or group.

[Uncle Dale]

I read somewhere that the townsfolk were angry that they were losing their daughters to

polygamous marriages.

 

Jim

Maybe one or two of them. And maybe a few dozen parents,

scattered here and there, who had seen their daughters

converted to Mormonism, and had heard some reports

that bigamy was going on inside the LDS enclave.

But those sorts of heartbroken moms and dads did not

suddenly all gather together and march upon the jail.

In fact, I doubt that history records even one set of

parents who discovered that their daughter had been

so lured and enslaved. The parents of girls brought

into plural sealings seem generally to have approved.

The husband of Apostle Pratt's final plural conquest

did not approve, of course -- nor did the husband of

Brigham's Boston allurements. But those guys were

not at Carthage that June. We more typically hear

of them in the courtrooms, trying to obtain justice

a little more personal than via chaotic mob violence.

UD

[Alan]

Uncle Dale,

By "messed with" I meant by the local militias and gangs.

The Mormons would still have been small enough to have been ignored at a national level. I believe they would have got large enough through organised immigration from Europe (which would have started in earnest much earlier had the Mormons been confident in their geographical position) not to have been easily intimidated by Gentile gangs, and the state of Illinois would have had to find an accommodation with them.

 

Any national concern about the Mormons would likely have been pacified by Joseph's presidential campaign because he was personally very charismatic and came over well in the public domain. He also espoused some very progressive policies.

 

The modification of doctrines would likely have been very effective in reducing tensions with the Gentiles. For evidence of this one needs to look no further than the RLDS experience in Missouri.

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dale,

By "messed with" I meant by the local militias and gangs.

The Mormons would still have been small enough to have been ignored at a national level. I believe they would have got large enough through organised immigration from Europe (which would have started in earnest much earlier had the Mormons been confident in their geographical position) not to have been easily intimidated by Gentile gangs, and the state of Illinois would have had to find an accommodation with them.

Any national concern about the Mormons would likely have been pacified by Joseph's presidential campaign because he was personally very charismatic and came over well in the public domain. He also espoused some very progressive policies.

The modification of doctrines would likely have been very effective in reducing tensions with the Gentiles. For evidence of this one needs to look no further than the RLDS experience in Missouri.

Well, we each have our imaginations to rely upon, I guess.

My imagination tells me that the Council of Fifty was organized

for a distinct reason, and that was to bring forth and establish

the pre-millennial Kingdom of God on Earth. Joseph was not

secretly crowned king of Israel and of the world to be, back

in 1844 for no reason. The reason it was kept secret was

because it amounted to treason.

Had Joseph survived, I'm convinced that he would have

pursued building that secret political kingdom, until it need

no longer be hidden from the Saints' Gentile enemies.

Question is -- where could a defensible headquarters for

such a church-with-an-army be established? Nauvoo was

never to be the final answer. Somewhere else. Somewhere

else, in the midst of the Lamanites.

But, of course Joseph did not live, and the Mormons soon

evacuated their city-state on the Mississippi.

So, all of our imaginings go nowhere after that decision

had been reached. And I suspect that it had already been

provisionally decided upon, as far back as the vision in

Iowa, the white horse revelation, etc.

UD

Edited February 27, 2015 by Uncle Dale