Lgbt Advocates Burning Bridges To Ssa Community With Reaction To Tlc Show

[USU78]

I know of two of us on this message board (CaliforniaBoy and myself) who failed at mixed orientation marriages.

Neither of us responded the way you're suggesting above.

In fact, we've said exactly the opposite. We support the rights of these men and women to choose to live how they will, and wish them the best.

Why does there have to be so much hyperbolic mischaracterization about how "the gay community" is reacting to this...?!

Of COURSE GLAAD and other organizations are denouncing this program... they are activist organizations. OMM and NOM and FRC denounce like this all the time--but I know their extreme views don't characterize the vast majority of people I know, and I don't attribute their views to all heterosexuals or blame the entire heterosexual community.

Based on my personal discussions with all my ex/LDS gay friends I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of us simply roll our eyes at this show, express sympathy and compassion for these couples (seeing ourselves in them) and the road we believe they'll ultimately face, and move on in our own lives and relarionships. The existence of this TV show does not threaten or undermine my life or marriage in ANY way.

Frankly, I think it's going to end up reinforcing to most of its audience the views they already have, regardless of which side anyone is on. And I think the more exposure on gay LDS issues, the better--even shows like this, which I think will ultimately end badly for these families---but that doesn't mean I begrudge them either happiness or the opportunity to try.

I agree... which is why I won't give up on all of you on this board and will continue to do missionary work with ya. ;-)

 

Calling them extreme, while accurate, doesn't take away their influence.

 

Look what they accomplished re reparative therapy in California and elsewhere.

[Rain]

I agree.

In a related matter, not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is an article on the "No More Strangers" blog that looks at data on mixed orientation marriages (including within the LDS context)...

Things You Should Know When Watching TLC’s “My Husband’s Not Gay,” Joining North Star, or Considering a Mixed-Orientation Marriage

I quickly skimmed this so it is possible I am missing something, but I see one very important thing missing. Did they also study how the marriages started out? Things are much more open now with church and gay issues. With many of these marriages not breaking up till after 16 years it may be that the majority of those marriages started without both spouses knowing. That can make a HUGE difference in how you approach your marriage and maintain it.

I'm sure there are some marriages where both spouses knew and understood. I'd like to know if the divorce percentages are the same. It will also be interesting to see if there is a difference in 15-20 years of marriages that started now and those in the study.

[Avatar4321]

It simply amazes me how we discuss these issues with no reference to the atonement.

do you believe the atonement of Christ has the power to change human nature? I do. I've experienced it, though not this particular issue.

.

Christ can change all of us. In fact He must change all of us.

[Rain]

do you believe the atonement of Christ has the power to change human nature? I do. I've experienced it, though not this particular issue.

What makes this the exception?

[Avatar4321]

What makes this the exception?

I don't think it is an exception. I just don't struggle with this trial so I don't have experience using the atonement in overcoming that.

[Maestrophil]

I have said this before - but my personal feeling is that we humans put way too much emphasis on feeling we have a "right" to be sexually satisfied. 

 

The more we feel that is an inherent expectation and right in a marriage and in life, the more divorces will (and do) occur as people seek that "right" elsewhere when they fail to find it in their current chosen relationship.  My covenant and choice to enter into and stay in a temple marriage is far more important to me than my sexual gratification.  If my wife were to somehow suffer a malady (even mental or emotional) that would prevent her from physical intimacy, that would NEVER be a reason for me to feel I could dissolve the covenant we made and the commitment I made to God and my wife. 

 

I totally see how to an atheist, that is kind of crazy - but even as an atheist, I think I would put a high value on the commitment I made to stay loyal to the one I love above my own appetites and desires. 

 

But obviously - globally speaking - my opinion is not shared by the majority.  I find it sad how many lives are hurt as people seek the sexual lives they "deserve"

 

MP

[Ahab]

I am so curious by what you mean by snubbed? Do they not let you hang out with them? Do they not let you march in their parades? Do they turn their backs on you when you enter the room? Love to know what you mean by that statement.

Most gays I know including myself have a wide range of friends. I would say half of my friends are straight and half gay. I don't choose my friends based on who they sleep with or who they are attracted to. This is not like some club and you have to be voted in.

Those in the LGBT community who snub me have various reasons for why they snub me and I was thinking particularly about those who snub me by not considering me to be one of them anymore, even though I tell them I still consider both men and women to be sexually attractive. They think I'm not really gay or bi unless I have sexual relations with both men and women, and I just don't and won't do that anymore.

I think it's kinda like how some Christians in the church I was in before I joined the Church I'm in now don't think of me as a Christian anymore, even though I still have those same Christian beliefs that I once did, plus the additional knowledge and understanding I've gained from the Lord.

[rockpond]

I have said this before - but my personal feeling is that we humans put way too much emphasis on feeling we have a "right" to be sexually satisfied. 

 

The more we feel that is an inherent expectation and right in a marriage and in life, the more divorces will (and do) occur as people seek that "right" elsewhere when they fail to find it in their current chosen relationship.  My covenant and choice to enter into and stay in a temple marriage is far more important to me than my sexual gratification.  If my wife were to somehow suffer a malady (even mental or emotional) that would prevent her from physical intimacy, that would NEVER be a reason for me to feel I could dissolve the covenant we made and the commitment I made to God and my wife. 

 

I totally see how to an atheist, that is kind of crazy - but even as an atheist, I think I would put a high value on the commitment I made to stay loyal to the one I love above my own appetites and desires. 

 

But obviously - globally speaking - my opinion is not shared by the majority.  I find it sad how many lives are hurt as people seek the sexual lives they "deserve"

 

MP

 

I agree.  I also think that it's important to remember that when someone seeks a marriage (gay or straight) it isn't just about sexual satisfaction.  It's also about companionship and emotional intimacy.

[The Nehor]

I agree.  I also think that it's important to remember that when someone seeks a marriage (gay or straight) it isn't just about sexual satisfaction.  It's also about companionship and emotional intimacy.

....and inheritance money.

[USU78]

....and inheritance money.

 

. . . and government benefits.

[Ahab]

. . . and government benefits.

. . . and society's approval.

[Ham Clam]

. . . and government benefits.

I find the Left's arugments against gay marriage (well, against using marriage as vechicals for governments benifits, healthcare, ect) the most interesting. I'm not politically delevoped to know to make up my mind if I agree (to one extend or another), but it gives me more to think about.

[rockpond]

Doug Fabrizio did an episode of his Radio West show on Monday to discuss the TLC show after the first episode aired.  It was a balanced discussion (I'll paste the guess list below) and gave a lot of interesting perspective on MOMs.  I thought it might be of interest to those participating in this thread.

 

Here's the link:  http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/mixed-orientation-marriages-utah

 

I apologize if someone has posted this already.

 

 

GUESTS

• Dave Matheson is a writer and a psychotherapist at The Center for Gender Wholeness, an organization that offers therapy treatment to "men who experience unwanted homosexuality." He is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and in is a marriage that he says some would label a mixed-orientation relationship.
• Alan Miller was in a heterosexual marriage as a gay man for more than 20 years. He was a longtime active member of the LDS church and served as a former board member of the Utah Pride Center.
• Mitch Mayne is an openly gay, active Latter-Day Saint. He served in the bishopric of his ward in San Francisco as an openly gay member.
• John Dehlin is a PhD candidate in Psychology at Utah State University. His dissertation examines the experiences of LGBTQ Mormons and former Mormons.

[Tacenda]

<p>

Doug Fabrizio did an episode of his Radio West show on Monday to discuss the TLC show after the first episode aired. It was a balanced discussion (I'll paste the guess list below) and gave a lot of interesting perspective on MOMs. I thought it might be of interest to those participating in this thread.

Here's the link: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/mixed-orientation-marriages-utah

I apologize if someone has posted this already.

GUESTS

• Dave Matheson is a writer and a psychotherapist at The Center for Gender Wholeness, an organization that offers therapy treatment to "men who experience unwanted homosexuality." He is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and in is a marriage that he says some would label a mixed-orientation relationship.
• Alan Miller was in a heterosexual marriage as a gay man for more than 20 years. He was a longtime active member of the LDS church and served as a former board member of the Utah Pride Center.
• Mitch Mayne is an openly gay, active Latter-Day Saint. He served in the bishopric of his ward in San Francisco as an openly gay member.
• John Dehlin is a PhD candidate in Psychology at Utah State University. His dissertation examines the experiences of LGBTQ Mormons and former Mormons.

I'm glad you posted this, I've pretty well listened to all my normal podcasts, and there are no current ones, thanks! Btw, I've yet to watch the show on TLC, this will help me see what I'm getting myself into when I do.

[rockpond]

I'm glad you posted this, I've pretty well listened to all my normal podcasts, and there are no current ones, thanks! Btw, I've yet to watch the show on TLC, this will help me see what I'm getting myself into when I do.

 

I haven't seen the show either but they play a couple audio clips from the TLC show on the RadioWest podcast.  All I can say is that if these guys want to live as straight men, I think they really ought to stop talking about how attractive other men are to them.  Seems counter-productive but what do I know.  I suppose that if they just lived a regular ol' straight Mormon married man life it would be way too boring for TV.  

[Daniel2]

Dave Matheson was my therapist for a period of time when he was practicing in New Jersey.

His conclusion after several sessions with me was that he couldn't find anything in my past that would cause me to have or be homosexual, and he said I was the first person who made him pause to think thst perhaps some people are simply born gay.

Incidentally, his therapy for me consisted of having me physically beat a boxing bag with a tennis racquet as hard as I could while repeatedly yelling "DAD!!!! DAD!!! DAD!!!" as loud as I could with each stroke of the bat... (for the record, my dad and I had a great, wholesome, loving, normal relationship and I never had any issues with him, but Matheson was initially convinced I would).

Dumbest thing ever. I needed therapy to get over his "therapy." :-p But don't tell him I told you... it would violate the confidentiality agreement I had to sign before he'd consent to "treat" me.

Another LDS father of four I knew attended Matheson's "Journey Into Manhood" retreat for SSA men (through his "People Can Change" organization) and ended up committing suicide a year later.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Daniel2

[Ham Clam]

Dave Matheson was my therapist for a period of time when he was practicing in New Jersey.

His conclusion after several sessions with me was that he couldn't find anything in my past that would cause me to have or be homosexual, and he said I was the first person who made him pause to think thst perhaps some people are simply born gay.

Incidentally, his therapy for me consisted of having me physically beat a boxing bag with a tennis racquet while repeatedly yelling "DAD!!!! DAD!!! DAD!!!" AS loud as I could while striking the bad with it. Dumbest thing ever. I needed therapy to get over his "therapy." :-p But don't tell him I told you... it would violate the confidentiality agreement I had to sign before he'd consent to "treat" me.

Wow, then David Matheson has come really far since then.

... and that just sounds so weird.

[california boy]

Dave Matheson was my therapist for a period of time when he was practicing in New Jersey.

His conclusion after several sessions with me was that he couldn't find anything in my past that would cause me to have or be homosexual, and he said I was the first person who made him pause to think thst perhaps some people are simply born gay.

Incidentally, his therapy for me consisted of having me physically beat a boxing bag with a tennis racquet as hard as I could while repeatedly yelling "DAD!!!! DAD!!! DAD!!!" as loud as I could with each stroke of the bat... (for the record, my dad and I had a great, wholesome, loving, normal relationship and I never had any issues with him, but Matheson was initially convinced I would).

Dumbest thing ever. I needed therapy to get over his "therapy." :-p But don't tell him I told you... it would violate the confidentiality agreement I had to sign before he'd consent to "treat" me.

Another LDS father of four I knew attended Matheson's "Journey Into Manhood" retreat for SSA men (through his "People Can Change" organization) and ended up committing suicide a year later.

 

Wow I had no idea David Matheson was your therapist.  He was mine as well.  At the time I came out he was living and practicing in Los Angeles with Joseph Nicolosi and had quite the reputation amongst the Mormon community.  I used to fly down there once a month for three consecutive sessions with him.  At first we just talked about family relationships, mostly with my parents.  I found that very helpful in helping me understand my parents better.  Then he felt we should move on to reparative therapy.  So David had me stand up in the middle of the room and imagine a deep hole.  So deep I couldn't see the bottom of it.  Then  he wanted me to yell at the top of my lungs.  That was suppose to get the anger out of my system.  I told him I felt no anger.  But he insisted that I must and that I had to yell.  I think he felt he could generate some kind of hate inside of me, but it just wasn't there.  So I stood there in the middle of the room yelling at the top of my lungs.  It just seemed stupid to me.  I went a couple of times and then quit going.  

 

I found the article posted to be incredibly interesting.  It sounds like he was trying to project his own issues onto me and felt like I must have experienced some of the same anger and distance from my father that he felt.  For me, being gay had nothing to do with my relationship with my father.  So the whole thing was pointless.  He seems much wiser and more realistic now.  Good for him.