Lgbt Advocates Burning Bridges To Ssa Community With Reaction To Tlc Show

[The Nehor]

One wishes the gay community would be consistent. If my experiences and those of many I know are any indication they have no problem with straight people experimenting with or engaging in homosexual activities. Those I know who have indulged (not me thankfully) do not report that they are seen as living a lie by the gay community.

[guerreiro9]

Both. I tend to take notice of women who are Mrs. Newbesque, even more so than a woman who might be more "conventionally" pretty. However, I am most attracted to Sister Newb.

So you obviously agree that a man's relationship with a woman can affect how attractive she is to him, but I guess you don't think that extends to men who happen to be attracted to other men?

-guerreiro9

[Rob Osborn]

I know a family- husband, wife, five kids, married, sealed in the temple, active church going, attending temple readily. Then, one day, husband stops coming to church, has some "issues". After a while wife also stops coming to church. They move away but still keep in touch. He becomes trasgendered- feels like he should be a woman and begins steps to change his sex into a hers. The couple stay together but leave the church altogether. He changes his name into a girls name and they both address each other as "she" and both address each other as "wife". Then they get disgusted with the church for its stand on gay marriage because now they will be a gay married couple/same sex couple. Then, they come out as atheists denying God and Christ. Then, she comes out and says she is bisexual and they are supposedly happily married. Poor kids have a rough shot at life at this point. Heres what I dont get- if he thinks he is a woman, why is he attracted to a woman? And, she was only attracted to men until he decided to change and when he changed his sexual identity, so did she. The whole thing to me is a downward spiral of what happens when one moves away from God and loses faith. I think its great that TLC is airing the program to show how one can remain true to ones covenants even when challenged in such manners. This family I know on the other hand is what happens when one gives up hope and loses faith. And YES, people can and do choose what gender they can and are attracted to which they then advance into with an active relationship.

[Ham Clam]

What's the MOM path?

MOM means Mixed Orientation Marriage. One spouse is straight while the other is gay, ect.

[Ham Clam]

Heres what I dont get- if he thinks he is a woman, why is he attracted to a woman? And, she was only attracted to men until he decided to change and when he changed his sexual identity, so did she. 

Gender identity and sexual orientation aren't directly related. One can change while the other stays the same. I've heard of many couples where one partner changes genders and the spouses stays with him/her. There's at least one story of one LDS trans couple staying together on North Star's Transgender Awareness Month posts.

I couldn't say if women discovered this part of herself with her husband changing or she had always had some attraction. Sounds like a tricky situation.

[Ham Clam]

These men claim to have sexual feelings for their wives and at least one wife has claimed that they have a satisfying sex life (and i suppose there's no reason we shouldn't take their word for it) so that is why these people have chosen what they have i suppose.

 

One blog i read (written by that homosexual church member who was an executive secretary in his ward somewhere in Oregon or California i think-i can't remember his name) claimed these men should more accurately be labeled bisexual.  For the record he was very upset with the premise of the show, claiming it would harm countless gay mormons.

I don't think bi-sexual covers it (it does imply more of an sexual binary too) because when people think of bi-sexual they think of a consistent attraction (to a strong/mild degree) to both sexes while it's more like these are on the vary tip of the scale attraction to women and that little bit doesn't always work for them like strong heterosexuality.  

[Stargazer]

So if your wife were to become disfigured in an accident so that she were no longer superficially beautiful, you could no longer share a "romantic love"?

 

Wow, he didn't even imply that!  How can you read that into what he wrote?  Unless you're just trying to be a jerk.  Sorry for that.  It really annoyed me.

[Yirgacheffe]

MOM means Mixed Orientation Marriage. One spouse is straight while the other is gay, ect.

Thank you.

[rockpond]

I'm an unimportant (in this issue) yet opinionated person so i thought I'd post my thoughts here:

The reaction of LGBT advocates to the new TLC show "My Husband is Not Gay" is burning bridges with the conservative SSA community.

Not that North Star and Affirmation don't fight like cats and dogs already, but this show is bring the tension to the forefront. 

How advocates are burning bridges:

1. Belittling the close relationships of those choosing the MOM path. Describing these as "sham marriages", the women as "stupid", and a multitude of other insults I've seen on social media the last few days is extremely hurtful to the couples and conservative community. It's bullying through shaming. 

2. Attempting to dominate over the conservative community. Trying to have TLC pull the plug on a TV about the lives of several of its members is straight-up censorship. The LGBT community is sending the message that they own the conversation and that the conservative community's voice and experiences don't matter.

 

3. Implying/saying that these couples are dangerous/an embarrassment. It's pretty obvious by talk the last few days that TLC is so powerful that the mere depiction of these couples will beguile the fragile youth. They will corrupted by the conservative position. Any depiction is only an advertisement after all. (The thousands of hours of pro-LGBT television be damned). And that the couples are an embarrassment to show to the world or are the "worse part of Mormonism". Stay in the closet, we don't want to see you. Wow, really?

This whole thing is sad and frustrating, even if I can tell these are just the extreme voices shouting loudly.

 

I agree.

 

In a related matter, not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is an article on the "No More Strangers" blog that looks at data on mixed orientation marriages (including within the LDS context)...

 

Things You Should Know When Watching TLC’s “My Husband’s Not Gay,” Joining North Star, or Considering a Mixed-Orientation Marriage

[guerreiro9]

Wow, he didn't even imply that! How can you read that into what he wrote? Unless you're just trying to be a jerk. Sorry for that. It really annoyed me.

He implied that absract physical attractiveness is required for "romantic" love. My comment illustrates that this is simply not true. If something happens to someone we love we can still share a "romantic" love and find them attractive even if we would not normally find someone with their physical appearance attractive.

I also believe this is the case with men who normally and in general find other men physically attractive. They can develop and cultivate an attraction for a specific woman even if they do not find women attractive in general.

I am sorry that you find my comment offensive, but I will not retract it as illustrates a perfectly valid point.

-guerreiro9

[stemelbow]

One wishes the gay community would be consistent.

Univocal united feelings among communities are impossible. The expectation is ridiculous, extremely naïve and most likely indicates the person worrying about the lack of consistency hasn't tried to understand the community itself.

it happens all the time. Some LDS member says something backwards and rude, the hearer then attributes other LDS members with the same view. But such an expectation is the problem.

[juliann]

I heard a couple of discussions about this show on the radio while I was driving. I expected it to be denounced. To my surprise, both conversations were supportive although they scoffed at the title that the husband wasn't gay.  One of the hosts concluded with a joke..."what do you do with an Irishman who won't drink?" 

 

Meanwhile, I am really perplexed at those who are open to every form of gender/sexual expression but stop at this one. It makes no sense why this configuration can't be included.

[Rob Osborn]

I think we are beginning to really address what the causes are for gender attraction and that we just "arent born that way". Of course the LGBT is up in arms over the show because it doesnt fit their ideas and philosophy that you cannot change your orientation you were born with.

[mormonnewb]

He implied that absract physical attractiveness is required for "romantic" love. My comment illustrates that this is simply not true. If something happens to someone we love we can still share a "romantic" love and find them attractive even if we would not normally find someone with their physical appearance attractive.

I also believe this is the case with men who normally and in general find other men physically attractive. They can develop and cultivate an attraction for a specific woman even if they do not find women attractive in general.

I am sorry that you find my comment offensive, but I will not retract it as illustrates a perfectly valid point.

-guerreiro9

I didn't take offense but you may want to retract your statement because it seems to indicate that if the relationship is close enough, it can overcome innate gender preferences. I'm not so sure.

I will certainly concede that physical attractiveness is just one part of a romantic connection and that emotional closeness can trump physical beauty. I know that I've had situations in which I didn't initially find a woman attractive, but as I got to know her better, I began to develop romantic feelings for her. But I don't think that a close personal connection can trump gender.

Most of my close friends have been men. Yet, despite the fact, I haven't slept with any of them. And it's not because of my iron will. Quite frankly, the thought NEVER occurred to me. Now, perhaps that might change if I make some more attractive friends, but I doubt it. Because gender is a trump card for me.

Now, as sexual orientation exists on a continuum, I can see how gender isn't a trump card for everyone. A straight man could develop feelings for a man or a gay man could develop feelings for a woman. I just don't think that it's reasonable to expect this to be a practical reality for all (or even most) gay men.

[guerreiro9]

I didn't take offense but you may want to retract your statement because it seems to indicate that if the relationship is close enough, it can overcome innate gender preferences. I'm not so sure.

I will certainly concede that physical attractiveness is just one part of a romantic connection and that emotional closeness can trump physical beauty. I know that I've had situations in which I didn't initially find a woman attractive, but as I got to know her better, I began to develop romantic feelings for her. But I don't think that a close personal connection can trump gender.

Most of my close friends have been men. Yet, despite the fact, I haven't slept with any of them. And it's not because of my iron will. Quite frankly, the thought NEVER occurred to me. Now, perhaps that might change if I make some more attractive friends, but I doubt it. Because gender is a trump card for me.

Now, as sexual orientation exists on a continuum, I can see how gender isn't a trump card for everyone. A straight man could develop feelings for a man or a gay man could develop feelings for a woman. I just don't think that it's reasonable to expect this to be a practical reality for all (or even most) gay men.

Easy no, possible yes. Bringing this back to the conversation at hand, the current party line amongst the LGBT community is that it is impossible for a gay man to have a meaningful and happy marriage to a woman (including a satisfying sex life). For evidence of this they point to all the people who failed and say "see look it's impossible, it's dangerous even to think it's possible".

I shudder to think of what will become of our world if all difficult things are deemed impossible and we are encouraged not to try because we may feel bad if we fail.

-guerreiro9

[Daniel2]

Easy no, possible yes. Bringing this back to the conversation at hand, the current party line amongst the LGBT community is that it is impossible for a gay man to have a meaningful and happy marriage to a woman (including a satisfying sex life). For evidence of this they point to all the people who failed and say "see look it's impossible, it's dangerous even to think it's possible".

I know of two of us on this message board (CaliforniaBoy and myself) who failed at mixed orientation marriages.

Neither of us responded the way you're suggesting above.

In fact, we've said exactly the opposite. We support the rights of these men and women to choose to live how they will, and wish them the best.

Why does there have to be so much hyperbolic mischaracterization about how "the gay community" is reacting to this...?!

Of COURSE GLAAD and other organizations are denouncing this program... they are activist organizations. OMM and NOM and FRC denounce like this all the time--but I know their extreme views don't characterize the vast majority of people I know, and I don't attribute their views to all heterosexuals or blame the entire heterosexual community.

Based on my personal discussions with all my ex/LDS gay friends I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of us simply roll our eyes at this show, express sympathy and compassion for these couples (seeing ourselves in them) and the road we believe they'll ultimately face, and move on in our own lives and relarionships. The existence of this TV show does not threaten or undermine my life or marriage in ANY way.

Frankly, I think it's going to end up reinforcing to most of its audience the views they already have, regardless of which side anyone is on. And I think the more exposure on gay LDS issues, the better--even shows like this, which I think will ultimately end badly for these families---but that doesn't mean I begrudge them either happiness or the opportunity to try.

I shudder to think of what will become of our world if all difficult things are deemed impossible and we are encouraged not to try because we may feel bad if we fail.

-guerreiro9

I agree... which is why I won't give up on all of you on this board and will continue to do missionary work with ya. ;-)

[california boy]

I think we are beginning to really address what the causes are for gender attraction and that we just "arent born that way". Of course the LGBT is up in arms over the show because it doesnt fit their ideas and philosophy that you cannot change your orientation you were born with.

 

I think it more likely stems from their own personal life experience.  They just can in no way identify with someone who says he is gay and then wants to marry a woman.  It makes no sense to them.  Any more than someone telling you that you should marry a guy.  Would that make any sense to you?  

 

You have to also keep in mind, they don't approach this issue from a religious perspective.  Would you be willing to never marry a woman and instead marry a man?  Since they are not looking at this from a religious perspective, can you see why they think this is the most bizarre idea ever?  The general gay population is probably going to look at this issue a lot differently than a gay Mormon or a straight Mormon would.  I personally have no problem with them trying this approach.  I wish them all the best.

[california boy]

I agree.

 

In a related matter, not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is an article on the "No More Strangers" blog that looks at data on mixed orientation marriages (including within the LDS context)...

 

Things You Should Know When Watching TLC’s “My Husband’s Not Gay,” Joining North Star, or Considering a Mixed-Orientation Marriage

Finally a actual study concerning mixed orientation marriages.  Certainly worth reading the study.  For those who think it is good to encourage mixed orientation marriages, here are a few of the results.

 

• Mixed-orientation (LDS) marriages are somewhere between 200% and 300% more likely to end in divorce than are heterosexual marriages.

 

• Bisexuality appears to be an essential ingredient to preserving an LDS mixed-orientation marriage. 

 

• Those who are exclusively attracted to the same sex have extremely high (upwards of 85%) probabilities of eventual divorce.  

 

That means only 15% of mixed orientation marriages succeed.  I am sorry, but there is no way I would want my daughters marrying a gay man no matter how noble they thought the cause was.  No wonder the church no longer recommends such marriages.

[The Nehor]

I think it more likely stems from their own personal life experience.  They just can in no way identify with someone who says he is gay and then wants to marry a woman.  It makes no sense to them.  Any more than someone telling you that you should marry a guy.  Would that make any sense to you?

Oddly enough.......yes.

[guerreiro9]

I know of two of us on this message board (CaliforniaBoy and myself) who failed at mixed orientation marriages.

Neither of us responded the way you're suggesting above.

In fact, we've said exactly the opposite. We support the rights of these men and women to choose to live how they will, and wish them the best.

Why does there have to be so much hyperbolic mischaracterization about how "the gay community" is reacting to this...?!

 

Well including the two of you on this board I know of exactly two gay men who feel this way.  If this is indeed the sentiment of the larger community you are doing a very poor job disseminating your message.

 

I appreciate you coming hear and sharing your thoughts.  In the future I'll try to remember that the loudest voice conveys less truth than the quiet reasoned voice.

 

Thank you.

 

-guerreiro9

[carbon dioxide]

My question is what is worse?  The content of the show or someone having spare time on their hands and filling it by watching the show?

[Ham Clam]

Well including the two of you on this board I know of exactly two gay men who feel this way.  If this is indeed the sentiment of the larger community you are doing a very poor job disseminating your message.

 

I appreciate you coming hear and sharing your thoughts.  In the future I'll try to remember that the loudest voice conveys less truth than the quiet reasoned voice.

 

Thank you.

 

-guerreiro9

Most of the comments I mentioned in the first post are from online comments from people from the online Mormon community as well as many social media outlets, so I am seeing how I am mistaking this voice as a majority. Kind of an echo chamber in reality.

I also am grateful for california boy's and Daniel2's thoughts. I feel much more leveled out about all this.

[Garden Girl]

Having lived in San Fran for 13 years, and working where about 90% of the men were gay, I developed  several rather good friendships with some of the men... and now 24 years after I retired I'm still in touch with 2 or 3 at least once or twice a year, usually during the holidays, to catch up on how they are doing... several years ago two such friends called me when they were visiting a resort here and we went out to dinner.  One of the men (divorced with grown children) surprised me because all these years he'd had a long time partner but he said he had met a woman who he was really taken with and he was going to pursue her and see what happened... he was very serious and hopeful... that was the last I heard from him until a couple months ago he called to say hello... so I asked him what had happened with that woman... he said it hadn't worked out... I didn't question him further because I could tell it was a disappointment...  he said not to worry about him because he had a partner and was happy... and that is what I want... for him to be happy. 

 

GG

[california boy]

Your story reminded me of a good friend of mine.  I met him through Evergreen, He had left the church when he was 18, moved to Hawaii found a boyfriend and lived a very happy life. Of course his family wanted him back in the church, and his faithful mother would write to him regularly pleading with him to come back to the church.  He ended up breaking up with his boyfriend, and moving back to Oregon.  There he started attending church again.  It is during this time that I met him.  One day he announced that he had met a girl and was dating.  The group of us that knew him through Evergreen were happy that he had found someone.  Occasionally we would get an email from him reporting on his progress.  Then we didn't hear from him for a while.  Finally I asked him what was going on.  He hold me he just kinda lost interest.  While he liked the idea of being with a woman, there was just no connection.

 

Eventually he met another guy.  They went to Canada and married and have been together every since.  He told me that was the best he could do.  And God would have to judge him on his heart.  It has been years, but like you, I still keep in contact with them.  The thing I have learned over time is that every gay Mormon deals with being gay in their own way.  There is no fixed path that works for everyone.  Some like Daniel and I and the guys in this show try marriage in hopes that will be a solution.  Sometimes it kinda works but most often (85% of the time) it doesn't  Some choose celibacy in hopes that will make them happy.  Most just leave the church because they can't be a part of it and still find companionship that humans seem to yearn for.

[mfbukowski]

It's entirely possible that a man who identifies as gay could still be attracted to, and in love with, ONE particular woman. Isn't sexuality supposed to be along a spectrum, instead of just binary? I can see how the gay rights crowd would be threatened. At all, their main message is that gay "marriage" is necessary because once someone realizes that they are attracted (at all) to members of the same sex, it is impossible for them to find happiness in heterosexual relationships.

I am re-posting this just because it has so far gotten 12 rep points.

Any post that does that should be put up in lights. Obviously this touches a nerve.