Are You Being Led Astray By Lds Shepherds?

[theplains]

With all the focus on whether something said or taught is doctrine in the church these days,

I was wondering if there are any major things you have read in the church magazines or

training manuals or heard at General Conference talks that the Holy Spirit revealed to you

was actually a false teaching? Or do you believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder

tells you is really true?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Silhouette]

With all the focus on whether something said or taught is doctrine in the church these days,

I was wondering if there are any major things you have read in the church magazines or

training manuals or heard at General Conference talks that the Holy Spirit revealed to you

was actually a false teaching? Or do you believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder

tells you is really true?

Thanks,

Jim

Personally I've never heard anything that I couldn't go along with and accept as truth. However, I would have to think a long time and do some serious soul searching if polygamy were brought back. It doesn't really bother me, but I would have to make sure it was coming from Heavenly Father.

[Kenngo1969]

It's like I always say: "Read your scriptures, strap on a bomb.  It's all the same to us."  

[Jeanne]

If we are following the wrong shepherds, this implies we are sheep.  Huh..you guys told me you are not sheep.

[Bobbieaware]

If we are following the wrong shepherds, this implies we are sheep.  Huh..you guys told me you are not sheep.

Don't know how long it's been since you read your scriptures, but it's The Lord Jesus Christ who called the members of the Church his sheep. If you think there's something demeaning in his use of the term, you can take it up with him.

[Hamba Tuhan]

As my personal experiences with experimenting upon their words have accumulated, my confidence in the latter-day prophets has increased tremendously, and I feel an increasing desire to follow their counsel and teachings. In stark contrast to anyone/anything telling me that a teaching is false, it has been my repeated experience the past few years that something that the Spirit has whispered to me is then repeated and often amplified in General Conference and/or in training meetings.

 

A specific example: I was called as ward mission leader almost exactly one year ago. The first thing I did in my new calling was to travel to the temple, fasting, to seek inspiration on the direction the Lord would have us go. There I received some very specific impressions, which I shared with my then bishop upon my return, and he endorsed them. These points then became the basis of our new ward mission plan. One month ago, our area president sent a letter to stakes and districts asking us to do two specific things in November in relation to the work of salvation. Our ward is already doing them since they are the very things I was impressed in the temple that we should be doing one year ago.

 

I find that happening all the time. In teaching one of my Gospel Principles lessons, I'll feel impressed to teach a particular principle or put things together in a way that's never occurred to me before. Then an apostle will teach the exact same thing in a CES devotional, in the pages of the Ensign, or in a General Conference. It's a very encouraging and reassuring experience. Clearly the same message is being communicated, and it generates an incredible unity/harmony -- not because I blindly 'believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder tells [me] is really true' but because I have learnt it indepently; the prophets and other Church leaders merely reinforce and extend the personal communications that come via God's Spirit.

 

All of which reminds me of one of the branches I lived in some years back. We were an independent branch, under no stake or district, and far from the mission office in both kilometres and in thought. In fact, I wondered sometimes if the mission even remembered we existed. We had no missionaries, no Church magazines, no access to General Conference, etc. I and one other newly arrived branch member had served missions, but otherwise no one else in the branch had ever met a missionary, all having been baptised by family members.

 

My first Sunday in the branch, which met in a stilt house in the mountains above the city, was Fast Sunday, and there were 14 of us in attendance. Our branch president began the testimony portion of the meeting, and as he spoke, I noted with some surprise that his testimony sounded exactly like mine. How, I thought, did that come to be seeing that he hadn't ever had contact with anyone from whom he might have learnt such things? This experience was repeated through every man, woman, and child in the branch, finishing with me. We all bore testimony of the same things and often in strikingly similar ways. And then it dawned on me: their testimonies and my testimony were the same because we had had the exact same teachers -- the Spirit and the lessons learnt through actually embracing and living gospel principles. This is the great key to the 'sameness' that permeates the Church of Jesus Christ -- the unity of the faith -- and it's brilliant!

Edited October 31, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

As my personal experiences with experimenting upon their words have accumulated, my confidence in the latter-day prophets has increased tremendously, and I feel an increasing desire to follow their counsel and teachings. In stark contrast to anyone/anything telling me that a teaching is false, it has been my repeated experience the past few years that something that the Spirit has whispered to me is then repeated and often amplified in General Conference and/or in training meetings.

 

A specific example: I was called as ward mission leader almost exactly one year ago. The first thing I did in my new calling was to travel to the temple, fasting, to seek inspiration on the direction the Lord would have us go. There I received some very specific impressions, which I shared with my then bishop upon my return, and he endorsed them. These points then became the basis of our new ward mission plan. One month ago, our area president sent a letter to stakes and districts asking us to do two specific things in November in relation to the work of salvation. Our ward is already doing them since they are the very things I was impressed in the temple that we should be doing one year ago.

 

I find that happening all the time. In teaching one of my Gospel Principles lessons, I'll feel impressed to teach a particular principle or put things together in a way that's never occurred to me before. Then an apostle will teach the exact same thing in a CES devotional, in the pages of the Ensign, or in a General Conference. It's a very encouraging and reassuring experience. Clearly the same message is being communicated, and it generates an incredible unity/harmony -- not because I blindly 'believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder tells [me] is really true' but because I have learnt it indepently; the prophets and other Church leaders merely reinforce and extend the personal communications that come via God's Spirit.

 

All of which reminds me of one of the branches I lived in some years back. We were an independent branch, under no stake or district, and far from the mission office in both kilometres and in thought. In fact, I wondered sometimes if the mission even remembered we existed. We had no missionaries, no Church magazines, no access to General Conference, etc. I and one other newly arrived branch member had served missions, but otherwise no one else in the branch had ever met a missionary, all having been baptised by family members.

 

My first Sunday in the branch, which met in a stilt house in the mountains above the city, was Fast Sunday, and there were 14 of us in attendance. Our branch president began the testimony portion of the meeting, and as he spoke, I noted with some surprise that his testimony sounded exactly like mine. How, I thought, did that come to be seeing that he hadn't ever had contact with anyone from whom he might have learnt such things? This experience was repeated through every man, woman, and child in the branch, finishing with me. We all bore testimony of the same things and often in strikingly similar ways. And then it dawned on me: their testimonies and my testimony were the same because we had had the exact same teachers -- the Spirit and the lessons learnt through actually embracing and living gospel principles. This is the great key to the 'sameness' that permeates the Church of Jesus Christ -- the unity of the faith -- and it's brilliant!

 

 

it's funny I had a similar but different experience in the same calling. When I was called I had an impression to focus on something, well for the first year that really wasn't an issue but 2013 and now my gosh it's become an issue, it's like the Lord knew about this concern before it became a concern

Edited October 31, 2014 by Duncan

[Avatar4321]

That's really cool hamba. Haven't really had that experience with church leaders. But i haven't really been I. Church leadership positions lately and when I was I wasn't nearly as good with inspiration. I'm a better administrator than leader unfortunately.

I have had very weird experiences listening to Glenn beck though. Like I will be thinking of some topic and he will start talking about it the next day. One time, I was reading one of President Kimball's talks. He talked about how too often people love things and use people instead of using things and loving people. Literally the next day Glenn had a monologue on the exact line I read. I don't know whether the Lord was showing us both something at the same time or whether I should be scared that Glenn and I are on the same wavelength lol.

not trying to divert the thread with this. I would hope no one does that

[The Nehor]

I take not being led astray to mean that they will not lead us away from exaltation. It does not mean they might not teach Mormon folklore occasionally or maybe promote an incorrect model for Book of Mormon geography or even take a lesson from the Bible that does not make sense from the original text. If they are leading me towards eternal life that is all I expect.

[Pahoran]

If we are following the wrong shepherds, this implies we are sheep.  Huh..you guys told me you are not sheep.

 

I'm not sure who you mean by "you guys," but you do realise that theplains is one of those "Borned-agin" EV-Protestant types, right?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Kenngo1969]

If we are following the wrong shepherds, this implies we are sheep.  Huh..you guys told me you are not sheep.

Personally, I love the idea that I am one of The Good Shepherd's lambs.  (But, maybe that's just me. )

[JLHPROF]

Nobody would know if they were...

[Storm Rider]

 

With all the focus on whether something said or taught is doctrine in the church these days,

I was wondering if there are any major things you have read in the church magazines or

training manuals or heard at General Conference talks that the Holy Spirit revealed to you

was actually a false teaching? Or do you believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder

tells you is really true?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

Hello Jim, 

 

It is a good question, but one that has been discussed ad nauseum on this Board in many threads using different language.  As I have aged I am more careful in listening to the leaders and I feel more strongly in their counsel to pray about the things they say and let the Holy Spirit guide.  I dislike situations when process is mixed up with doctrine and both sides, leaders and members, are responsible for this confusion.  

 

I have stopped wishing the world was perfect and expecting leaders to be perfect.  I have grown to accept them as men with a calling who are willing to serve.  

 

I have learned decades ago that I did not enjoy leading and over time that conviction has only grown stronger. 

 

Hope all is well,

Mike

[EllenMaksoud]

 

With all the focus on whether something said or taught is doctrine in the church these days,

I was wondering if there are any major things you have read in the church magazines or

training manuals or heard at General Conference talks that the Holy Spirit revealed to you

was actually a false teaching? Or do you believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder

tells you is really true?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

In my opinion, many members are treating the BOM as if it takes the place of the Bible.

[Boanerges]

I take not being led astray to mean that they will not lead us away from exaltation. It does not mean they might not teach Mormon folklore occasionally or maybe promote an incorrect model for Book of Mormon geography or even take a lesson from the Bible that does not make sense from the original text. If they are leading me towards eternal life that is all I expect.

On this you and I agree. I chalk this up to being at Fowler's stage 5, but I don't suppose you have to be a 5 to believe this.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Boanerges

[canard78]

Yes, I do find things said that I disagree with... Even after prayerfully considering it.

Elder Holland's conference talk of April 2014... Pretty much every word of it.

The Joseph Fielding Smith manual that is being used this year multiple cases of hyperbole that isn't even supported by LDS doctrines elsewhere, so one of them has to be wrong.

The last official statements by LDS leaders are to be endogamous. A first presidency even called marriage between black and white people "repugnant" and against God's doctrine.

In 1949 a first presidency statement said the black priesthood ban was a doctrine.

In 1954 President McKay said it was a practice, not a doctrine.

Those statements can't coexist. One of them is false.

Today leaders make statements about marriage or dress standards or the role of prophets. How do we know they're not they're not just as false as either the 1949 or 1954 teaching by a prophet.

[KevinG]

I have struggled to reconcile a few things that my general and local authorities preached.  In a few cases I never did get confirmation that they were correct, but I also didn't get a prompting to publicly correct them, or work against their programs and teachings.

 

"I am not disposed to question the discrepancies on the question of doctrine; if we live faithful all will become clear to us. We cannot become united only as we get united in understanding." - George Albert Smith

 

It is good that we receive personal revelation,

 

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” - Brigham Young

 

...and we should strive to reconcile our own revelation and knowledge with the body of the church.

 

D&C 132:8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

 

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. - Joseph Smith

 

Do not confuse personal revelation with doctrine for the whole church.  And don't blab every revelation you receive.

 

Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves; be watchful and prayerful, and you shall have a prelude of those joys that God will pour out on that day. Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such. But if we are faithful, and live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, I will venture to prophesy that we shall get a blessing that will be worth remembering, if we should live as long as John the Revelator; our blessings will be such as we have not realized before, nor received in this generation. The order of the house of God has been, and ever will be, the same, even after Christ comes; and after the termination of the thousand years it will be the same; and we shall finally enter into the celestial Kingdom of God, and enjoy it forever. - Joseph Smith

 

When I receive a revelation or prompting that conflicts with what I hear a general authority say, I must reconcile honestly with myself and determine if it is:

1) My ego or selfishness overcoming the truth

2) An incomplete understanding of the truth that will be reconciled later with more information or revelation

3) A revelation I've received that the general authority or local authority has not.

 

If it is #3 then I must decide

A) Keep it to myself

B) Act on it if prompted

 

If it is B then I should

i) Counsel with leadership and share the information I've received

ii) Take other action as guided by the spirit

 

So far in my life as a Latter-day Saint the number of times I've gotten all the way to 3/B/ii are so few as to be almost inconsequential.  Even then it is up to us to weigh the importance of being right in a single instance vs. sustaining authority called of God and insuring the Lord's House is a house of order, and sufficiently ordered to bring others unto Christ.

[stemelbow]

Yes, I do find things said that I disagree with... Even after prayerfully considering it.

Elder Holland's conference talk of April 2014... Pretty much every word of it.

The Joseph Fielding Smith manual that is being used this year multiple cases of hyperbole that isn't even supported by LDS doctrines elsewhere, so one of them has to be wrong.

The last official statements by LDS leaders are to be endogamous. A first presidency even called marriage between black and white people "repugnant" and against God's doctrine.

In 1949 a first presidency statement said the black priesthood ban was a doctrine.

In 1954 President McKay said it was a practice, not a doctrine.

Those statements can't coexist. One of them is false.

Today leaders make statements about marriage or dress standards or the role of prophets. How do we know they're not they're not just as false as either the 1949 or 1954 teaching by a prophet.

My sentiments exactly. I would even include some more current ideas and examples but to do so might take this whole thread in a different direction. I'll leave with an endorsement of this post.

[Avatar4321]

You found problems with elder hollands April 2014 talk? Really? It was one of the best talks that conference.

[Tacenda]

In my opinion, many members are treating the BOM as if it takes the place of the Bible.

 

All About That Book (of Mormon)  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQ1l4LxZv4

[EllenMaksoud]

All About That Book (of Mormon)  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQ1l4LxZv4

That is a charming video! I did not get all the lyrics because of my hearing. So is this satirical or something else?

[DJBrown]

Yes, I do find things said that I disagree with... Even after prayerfully considering it.

Elder Holland's conference talk of April 2014... Pretty much every word of it.

The Joseph Fielding Smith manual that is being used this year multiple cases of hyperbole that isn't even supported by LDS doctrines elsewhere, so one of them has to be wrong.

The last official statements by LDS leaders are to be endogamous. A first presidency even called marriage between black and white people "repugnant" and against God's doctrine.

In 1949 a first presidency statement said the black priesthood ban was a doctrine.

In 1954 President McKay said it was a practice, not a doctrine.

Those statements can't coexist. One of them is false.

Today leaders make statements about marriage or dress standards or the role of prophets. How do we know they're not they're not just as false as either the 1949 or 1954 teaching by a prophet.

 

What about Holland's talk from April is incorrect?  I think the principles in his talk are some of the most crucial of our day.

 

Has the First Presidency reversed its statement about endogamy? If not, how do you know it is a false teaching?

 

Practice/Doctrine- one could argue this is splitting hairs.

 

If one is willing to dismiss the church's teachings about marriage, that pretty much opens the door to anything about our doctrine being incorrect.  There is no more fundamental principles by which the leaders are standing than those associated with marriage- they have been extremely consistent and clear on this.  I think it is extremely dangerous to adopt such attitudes. 

[Tacenda]

That is a charming video! I did not get all the lyrics because of my hearing. So is this satirical or something else?

It was on my FB feed yesterday!  And it's real, she did it for her Personal Progress in Young Women's.  Don't want to take away from it, but to her it's all about the BoM. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

With all the focus on whether something said or taught is doctrine in the church these days,

I was wondering if there are any major things you have read in the church magazines or

training manuals or heard at General Conference talks that the Holy Spirit revealed to you

was actually a false teaching? Or do you believe everything that an LDS apostle or elder

tells you is really true?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

As I recall the HG does not testify if untruth, only truth. Have there been times while at church that some one said something that the HG did not testify was true? Yeah all the time.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If we are following the wrong shepherds, this implies we are sheep.  Huh..you guys told me you are not sheep.

We have a comedian in the house everybody.

 

Man, my elbow hurts.