Does Man Have The Ability To Obey All Of The Commandments?

[Teancum]

1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I ^awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no ^bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall ^cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

 

 

The verse above from 1 Nephi 3:7 is a popular verse in the Book of Mormon and is often quoted by LDS.  This verse teaches that man has the ability to keep the commandments. I have asked LDS if they believe that they have the ability to keep all of the commandments and most have said that they do have this ability.  Are there any LDS that believe that they don't have the ability to keep the commandments?

 

 

No. Who cares. They are man made rules anyway.

[Teancum]

Are  you obeying the LDS gospel?

 

Are you obeying the man made protestant reformation gospel?

[Jim Stiles]

... 

Obedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins. It includes things you might not initially consider part of repentance, such as attending meetings, paying tithing, giving service, and forgiving others. The Lord said: “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” ¹³

 

The above quote is from LDS.org--Ensign--Finding Forgiveness--Elder Richard G Scott. 

In order to receive forgiveness of sins through repentance you must abandon your sins/obey all the commandments.

Romans 3:10 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

1 John 1:8-10 (NKJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[Jim Stiles]

Looks like the Apostle John said that Elder Richard D. Scott was deluding himself.

[Teancum]

I want to talk about repentance and the role that it plays in receiving forgiveness of sins--from an LDS point of view--but before we do that I would like to summarize things and see if we are in agreement thus far.

 

We are given commandments

We are expected to keep them

We have the ability to keep them

When we break the commandments we have willfully chosen to disobey God

When we willfully choose to disobey God we do not have forgiveness of sins

Umm no to the last line. LDS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT.

This is as bad as LDS saying you beleive in cheap grace.

[Teancum]

Man is incapable of obeying all of the commandments.  This seems to be the complete opposite of the LDS point of view which is that man is able to obey all of the commandments.  Do you think that this is a fair assessment of our difference?

Why would a God give commandments his creation could noy obey? Personally I don't think humans will obey all the rules but it seems like they could. Your God has set up a no win situation.

[Calm]

Looks like the Apostle John said that Elder Richard D. Scott was deluding himself.

Or not if you understand what LDS really believe (PS: if you want to hang around awhile, you might be more proactive about sharing your own beliefs and do a lot less telling LDS what their beliefs means…check board guidelines, mods might not be too happy with you if you do not follow them).  Trust me on this one, no LDS I know believes they are sinless or ever will be in this life.

Edited December 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

Jim, since you are unable to keep God's commandments according to your belief (please correct me if I misunderstand your point), does this mean you don't love God?

 

LDS believe that if we love God, we will try and do what he says to the best of our ability and that he will bless our efforts and bring us closer and closer to his ways as we endure in him.  It is really quite simple.  I do the same with my parents and others, if I love them, I listen to them and try and do what they ask of me.  What is so much more magnificent about God is that he can help me achieve this where other mortals are not that great at times.

[Teancum]

Jesus is God.   Man is not.  LDS bring down Jesus and elevate man.  This just illustrates another huge gap between Protestant beliefs and LDS beliefs.

Yawn..

What a strident polomecist you are. You do nothing other than set up straw men and poison the well.

Keep your reformed theology and be happy. It is not more or less true than the theology you wish to atttack here.

[Gervin]

Why would a God give commandments his creation could noy obey? 

I've never understood Alma 30:

 

 3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the ordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to keep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled.

 4 And thus the people did have no disturbance in all the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

 5 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the seventeenth year of the reign of the judges, there was continual peace.

 6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

 7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

 

How do you strictly follow the law of Moses yet have a law that says you don't have to believe in God?

Edited December 26, 2014 by Gervin

[pogi]

How do you strictly follow the law of Moses yet have a law that says you don't have to believe in God?

 

I don't understand why a people cannot practice freedom of religion and observe the law of Moses.  Are you suggesting it is contrary to the law of God for the US to have freedom of religion laws in light of the commandments of God?

 

P.S.  How does your response address Teancum's question?

Edited December 26, 2014 by pogi

[bluebell]

I've never understood Alma 30:

3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the ordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to keep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled.

4 And thus the people did have no disturbance in all the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

5 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the seventeenth year of the reign of the judges, there was continual peace.

6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

How do you strictly follow the law of Moses yet have a law that says you don't have to believe in God?

The answer is in verse 7. There was no *secular* law which governed belief. Earlier verses talking about people being strict in the observance of the law of Moses are talking about those who believed in God and thus followed the *religious* law.

It's like if someone was talking about how all Mormons were strict in following the law of chastity and then in the next breath talked about how people in the country were free to choose to obey God or not.

[Bobbieaware]

I've never understood Alma 30:

 

 3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the ordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to keep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled.

 4 And thus the people did have no disturbance in all the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

 5 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the seventeenth year of the reign of the judges, there was continual peace.

 6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

 7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

 

How do you strictly follow the law of Moses yet have a law that says you don't have to believe in God?

You can't be serious. That's like saying you can't understand why the Latter-day Saints who live in the United States are taught to strictly follow the law of God while they live in a country with a constitution that guarantees freedom of religion. The Nephites were TAUGHT to obey the Law of Moses, not compelled to do so by the power of secular authority.

[Jim Stiles]

Jim, since you are unable to keep God's commandments according to your belief (please correct me if I misunderstand your point), does this mean you don't love God?

Jesus satisfied the requirements of the law on the behalf of all who believe in him. Christians love God because He first loved them. That love of Christians for God is expressed by obedience to the law. This obedience is not perfect and will not be perfect until they are glorified at the end of time.

LDS believe that if we love God, we will try and do what he says to the best of our ability and that he will bless our efforts and bring us closer and closer to his ways as we endure in him.  It is really quite simple.  I do the same with my parents and others, if I love them, I listen to them and try and do what they ask of me.  What is so much more magnificent about God is that he can help me achieve this where other mortals are not that great at times.

Spencer W. Kimball's book the Miracle of Forgiveness would seem to indicate that it is impossible for someone to be forgiven of the same sin twice. No such restriction on forgiveness is present in the Bible for the simple reason that ALL sin committed by EACH AND EVERY Christian was paid for at the cross.

[Jim Stiles]

Or not if you understand what LDS really believe (PS: if you want to hang around awhile, you might be more proactive about sharing your own beliefs and do a lot less telling LDS what their beliefs means…check board guidelines, mods might not be too happy with you if you do not follow them).  Trust me on this one, no LDS I know believes they are sinless or ever will be in this life.

I suppose I could introduce myself. I am of the opinion that the Christian religion is best summarized by the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Westminster Larger Catechism, and the Westminster Smaller Catechism. Those documents may be viewed at the following web page:

http://opc.org/confessions.html

Please tell me, did Bill McKeever err in his review of the book Miracle of Forgiveness?

link containing temple content deleted by moderator

Compare the Miracle of Forgiveness with the following text from Westminster Confession of Faith 5:5

 

The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes

leave, for a season, his own children to manifold temptations, and the

corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins,

or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness

of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise

them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon

himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions

of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

[Jim Stiles]

Since I have been told to be more proactive and less reactive, I am quoting Chapter 6 of the Westminster Confession Faith and soliciting comments.

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment Thereof

1. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.

2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.

3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.

6. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.

[rpn]

Even the scripture acknowledges that someone on his own might not start out being able to keep the commandments.

[Garden Girl]

It sounds like LDS believe that they can disobey the commandments and expect that their sins will be forgiven.  Is that what I am hearing?

 

No, that's not what you heard in those words... people like you come on this board and ask questions designed not to learn or discuss respectfully, but to try and trip up someone... and that irks the heck out of me.  I had to stop reading because I found you to be so caught up in your own attempt to be clever that you sound idiotic.  Why don't you pay attention to the answers you've been given, not twist or misrepresent them such as this statement above.   I can see that you have nothing I'm interested in wading through...

 

GG

Edited December 27, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Gervin]

The answer is in verse 7. There was no *secular* law which governed belief. Earlier verses talking about people being strict in the observance of the law of Moses are talking about those who believed in God and thus followed the *religious* law.

If I understand, the people of Ammon had possession of the land.

 

And they went down into the land of Jershon, and took possession of the land of Jershon; and they were called by the Nephites the people of Ammon; therefore they were distinguished by that name ever after.

 

And the people of Ammon were strict in keeping the law of Moses.  So, under what authority did they follow a law that said the Law of Moses was optional? 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Gervin

[bluebell]

If I understand, the people of Ammon had possession of the land.

And they went down into the land of Jershon, and took possession of the land of Jershon; and they were called by the Nephites the people of Ammon; therefore they were distinguished by that name ever after.

And the people of Ammon were strict in keeping the law of Moses. So, under what authority did they follow a law that said the Law of Moses was optional?

Do you believe that if Mormons came into possession of the United States that they would abolish the law which allows everyone the freedom to believe and worship how they see best?

[Bobbieaware]

If I understand, the people of Ammon had possession of the land.

And they went down into the land of Jershon, and took possession of the land of Jershon; and they were called by the Nephites the people of Ammon; therefore they were distinguished by that name ever after.

And the people of Ammon were strict in keeping the law of Moses. So, under what authority did they follow a law that said the Law of Moses was optional?

Alma 30: 7-11 will answer your question. In Nephite society the law of Moses was administered under the independent ecclesiastical authority of the Church, while a constitutional system of government with enshrined and strictly enforced provisions for freedom of conscience and religion was administered under non-ecclesiastical secular authority. Under Nephite law, no one was compelled to live under the law of Moses unless they wanted to do so. Unbelievers were left alone in their state of unbelief as long as they didn't inflict harm or injury on anyone else.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Bobbieaware

[ERayR]

The answer to the question is Yes.  Here a little there a little, line upon line, and precept upon precept.

[Jim Stiles]

Why would a God give commandments his creation could noy obey? Personally I don't think humans will obey all the rules but it seems like they could. Your God has set up a no win situation.

Just because God commands humans to do something does not mean that humans have the ability to do what God has commanded. An imperative sentence does not imply an indicative sentence. The divine commandment: "Thou shall not kill" does not imply that man has the ability to avoid murder.

[ERayR]

Just because God commands humans to do something does not mean that humans have the ability to do what God has commanded. An imperative sentence does not imply an indicative sentence. The divine commandment: "Thou shall not kill" does not imply that man has the ability to avoid murder.

 

From the Book of Mormon I Nephi 3:7

 

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

 

Can they - Yes.  Will they???

[Teancum]

Just because God commands humans to do something does not mean that humans have the ability to do what God has commanded. An imperative sentence does not imply an indicative sentence. The divine commandment: "Thou shall not kill" does not imply that man has the ability to avoid murder.

So your false God set up a system where his creations and bound to fail.

In addition he picks and chooses who will and will not fail before he creates them.

Those who fail he will torture forever and ever. again this because HE decides it before they are created. And most of the thinking, feeling sentient, emotional being swill be in this eternal torment.

This God is not worthy of worship. He is a monster. A rational thinking being will conclude this easily. This type of religion is dangerous. It is amazing that 21st century humans still believe such nonesense.