Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 Then you asked: "According to the verse above what must you do in order for grace to apply?". My answer still stands.Your answer to my question was "I must strive to obey the commandments and when I fall short, I repent." If you continue to sin then you have not denied yourself of all ungodliness. In this case you would not be Christlike nor would the grace apply. LDS.org-->Ensign Oct 2006 "Plain and Precious Truths Restored"". . .The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32). . ."
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Your answer to my question was "I must strive to obey the commandments and when I fall short, I repent." If you continue to sin then you have not denied yourself of all ungodliness. In this case you would not be Christlike nor would the grace apply. LDS.org-->Ensign Oct 2006 "Plain and Precious Truths Restored" ". . . The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32). . ."Are you open to hearing what we actually believe? or would that interfere with your rock throwing? Edited January 2, 2015 by Flyonthewall 1
Teancum Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 If you sin then you are not Christlike. Jesus commanded his followers to be perfect. He knew they would not be so the died for their sins. But he still wants his followers to strive to obey and follow his will. This whole argument is asinine. Every honest EV I know believes in doing all they can to obey the commandments. They just say they have grace and the fruits of their salvation are exhibited in their obedience. They also believe obedience generates more rewards in heaven. Faith for the EV is the step for justification. The obedience is sanctification. Mormons believe they have to have faith, repent and be born again which is a change of heart and they do believe in baptism. They also believe in obedience. Justification comes through faith, repentance and baptism. Sanctification comes through further obedience. The difference may be the repentance and baptism part for Mormons. If there is a Christian God he laughs and laughs, or maybe weeps about all this theological hair splitting. 2
Teancum Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Your answer to my question was "I must strive to obey the commandments and when I fall short, I repent." If you continue to sin then you have not denied yourself of all ungodliness. In this case you would not be Christlike nor would the grace apply. LDS.org-->Ensign Oct 2006 "Plain and Precious Truths Restored"". . .The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32). . ." It is quite simple. Mormons believe we can fall from grace. They know they will never perfectly keep all the commandments in this life but they strive to do so and understand the rewards concept. They know without the atonmemnt of Christ they would never be saved at all. But the obedience is what helps keep them from falling from the grace of the saving covenant.See now you know and don't have to paint a false picture or wrest the LDS scripture to your agenda. What you are doing is as bad as when some Mormon says you believe in cheap grace and can simple say you have faith but continue to sin and not obey the commandments but still be saved. That is a false characterization as well. 1
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 Are you open to hearing what we actually believe? or would that interfere with your rock throwing?I am quoting from your own official publications. LDS.org-->Ensign Oct 2006 "Plain and Precious Truths Restored"". . .The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32). . ." According to the quote above from the Oct 2006 Ensign, what is required on our part in order to have "his grace sufficient" for us? 1
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 ". . .This whole argument is asinine. Every honest EV I know believes in doing all they can to obey the commandments. . ." This argument is extremely important because it shows an important difference between Christianity and Mormonism. Every honest EV knows that he is completely incapable of keeping the commandments (even though he may strive to do so). LDS believe that every commandment that God gives us can be kept. Therefore a person has the ability to keep all of the commandments. 1
Teancum Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 This argument is extremely important because it shows an important difference between Christianity and Mormonism. Every honest EV knows that he is completely incapable of keeping the commandments (even though he may strive to do so). LDS believe that every commandment that God gives us can be kept. Therefore a person has the ability to keep all of the commandments. No Mr. Obtuse, LDS don't. You totally ignored what I just instructed you on. I can only conclude you have an agenda and do not care to learn. Carry on my wayward son..... 3
Kenngo1969 Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 No Mr. Obtuse, LDS don't. You totally ignored what I just instructed you on. I can only conclude you have an agenda and do not care to learn. Carry on my wayward son.....
Teancum Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Kenngo The way the old scribe looks in the painting on the You Tube video is exactly how I feel when dealing with agenda driven fundamentalists. Doesn't he look very frustrated and tired?
Kenngo1969 Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Kenngo The way the old scribe looks in the painting on the You Tube video is exactly how I feel when dealing with agenda driven fundamentalists. Doesn't he look very frustrated and tired?Yes, he does, but I'm sure it passed for him, and that it'll pass for you.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 This argument is extremely important because it shows an important difference between Christianity and Mormonism. Every honest EV knows that he is completely incapable of keeping the commandments (even though he may strive to do so). LDS believe that every commandment that God gives us can be kept. Therefore a person has the ability to keep all of the commandments.Frustration notwithstanding, Canadaigua, I think, in order to be perfectly fair to you, that there are a good number of my co-religionists who misunderstand and/or who undervalue the Atonement based on 2 Nephi 25:23 (including some at fairly high levels in the Church of Jesus Christ). Personally, I don't want to be smugly self-satisfied, feeling pretty good about my chances of receiving the best reward possible as I wait at the Judgment Bar, or the least bit tempted to say, "Lord, I thank Thee that I am not as other men"; rather, I'd like to simply tell God, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner"; and, "Yes, Father, I did my best; but don't let me in based on that; let me in based on what Christ did for me." And in the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, any repentance or good works would not even be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. 1
Flyonthewall Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 I am quoting from your own official publications. LDS.org-->Ensign Oct 2006 "Plain and Precious Truths Restored" ". . .The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32). . ." According to the quote above from the Oct 2006 Ensign, what is required on our part in order to have "his grace sufficient" for us?Again, are you open to understanding what we believe? or will it interfere with your rock throwing? Moroni 10:32 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. What is required is our efforts to obey and follow His teachings. When we do this Christ's grace is what makes us perfect... but not without it. We never teach that we must be perfect in this life, or for the grace/atonement of Christ to be effective for us. That is something you make up., So stop trying to tell us what we teach. All you do is build straw men, throw rocks at it, then crow about your efforts. Looks rather foolish really. 2
Canadaigua Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 Again, are you open to understanding what we believe? or will it interfere with your rock throwing?Moroni 10:3232 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.What is required is our efforts to obey and follow His teachings. When we do this Christ's grace is what makes us perfect... but not without it.We never teach that we must be perfect in this life, or for the grace/atonement of Christ to be effective for us. That is something you make up.,So stop trying to tell us what we teach. All you do is build straw men, throw rocks at it, then crow about your efforts. Looks rather foolish really.LDS.org-->Ensign Oct 2006 "Plain and Precious Truths Restored"". . .The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us (Moroni 10:32). . ." ” When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,” then and only “then is his grace sufficient” for us. . ." What does the above sentence say? 1
Canadaigua Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 We never teach that we must be perfect in this life, or for the grace/atonement of Christ to be effective for us. So you believe that the LDS church teaches that you can continue to sin and be saved/exalted?
Canadaigua Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 It is quite simple. Mormons believe we can fall from grace. They know they will never perfectly keep all the commandments in this life but they strive to do so and understand the rewards concept. They know without the atonmemnt of Christ they would never be saved at all. But the obedience is what helps keep them from falling from the grace of the saving covenant.1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. Do you believe that God gives you commandments that you are unable to keep? 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) 1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.Do you believe that God gives you commandments that you are unable to keep?We believe that by the mercy extended to us through the atonement of Christ, we are given the opportunity to grow in the grace and knowledge of God without having to become instantly perfect. As long as we are sincere in our walk with God and continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of God, as the Church was taught by Peter in his day, then God's grace will attend us. This is what we are taught by our leaders, and this is what the Latter-day Saints believe. But it also must be said that the Latter-day Saints do not believe it is in harmony with the will of God to despite the spirit of grace and count Christ's infinite and eternal suffering for us to be an excuse to continue to live lives of ungodliness. Therefore, we believe Moroni's testimony on grace is simply a more positively framed and less brutally forthright way of saying the same thing Paul said when he admonished the Hebrew saints by saying: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received a knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," And again,"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace" Edited January 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Flyonthewall Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 So you believe that the LDS church teaches that you can continue to sin and be saved/exalted?In what timeframe? During this life we will not be exalted, it will be after our resurrection that that happens. Not immediately afterwards but in what ever time it takes. Can we be exalted while still sinning? no.
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received a knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," So how does this apply to someone struggling with an addiction or a character trait issue? How does this work for someone struggling against alcoholism, pornography or a bad temper? If they repent of the sin and then do it again because of their addiction and they know better can they no longer apply the atonement?I've always wondered, because there are MANY sins that aren't overcome right away. If they are committed multiple times after knowing better is repentance off the table?
Teancum Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. Do you believe that God gives you commandments that you are unable to keep?Read the background of the story man! He was inspired to a task that appeared very difficult. He essentially was saying if God wanted him to get the plates God would provide away. Once again you and your EV buddies are being intentionally obtuse to drive your agenda. As for me I don't even know if God exists for sure. But I do know LDS doctrine. No Mormons do not believe any one human can keep all the commandments all the time. Some will do better than others at keeping this, that or the other and so on. Does not matter. Mormons believe in Justification through Christ and doing what they can after that to obey God and this is sanctification. 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) So how does this apply to someone struggling with an addiction or a character trait issue? How does this work for someone struggling against alcoholism, pornography or a bad temper?If they repent of the sin and then do it again because of their addiction and they know better can they no longer apply the atonement?I've always wondered, because there are MANY sins that aren't overcome right away. If they are committed multiple times after knowing better is repentance off the table?I deliberately chose that passage of scripture so that the poster I was responding to would see there atr Biblical verses that are just as problematic and challenging to his EV point of view as the Book of Mormon verse in Moroni 10 that he has such a problem with.As for your question, I could answer you, but rather than do that I challenge you to ponder the verse in the full context of the entire chapter (Hebrews 10), and then why don't you tell me what you think Paul was trying to say and if his thinking is in harmony with the restored gospel? Edited January 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Jude2 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 We’ve been promised;“And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.” D&C 88 So some time in the eons before us we will get to the point that there is no darkness in us, so no desire to do evil and we will become one with God. John 17“20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are bone: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; 1
Canadaigua Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 In what timeframe? During this life we will not be exalted, it will be after our resurrection that that happens. Not immediately afterwards but in what ever time it takes.Can we be exalted while still sinning? no.Let me sum up what I believe your position is based on multiple posts--please correct me if I say something is wrong 1. It is impossible for man to keep the commandments in this life2. You must keep the commandments before being exalted3. Therefore obedience to the commandments can only take place after death
Canadaigua Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 Read the background of the story man! He was inspired to a task that appeared very difficult. He essentially was saying if God wanted him to get the plates God would provide away. Once again you and your EV buddies are being intentionally obtuse to drive your agenda. As for me I don't even know if God exists for sure. But I do know LDS doctrine. No Mormons do not believe any one human can keep all the commandments all the time. Some will do better than others at keeping this, that or the other and so on. Does not matter. Mormons believe in Justification through Christ and doing what they can after that to obey God and this is sanctification.I take it from your answer that you believe that God gives you commandments that you are incapable of keeping. Is that correct?
Jude2 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Let me sum up what I believe your position is based on multiple posts--please correct me if I say something is wrong 1. It is impossible for man to keep the commandments in this life2. You must keep the commandments before being exalted3. Therefore obedience to the commandments can only take place after deathOur Father in Heaven is not trying to keep us out of heaven, he loves us he wants us to join him there. “ And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” Mal 3 It’s all about sanctification, I don’t think we’ll stand before the final judgment seat until we are fully prepared to enter into his presences. “Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me.” 3 Nephi 9
Flyonthewall Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Let me sum up what I believe your position is based on multiple posts--please correct me if I say something is wrong 1. It is impossible for man to keep the commandments in this lifeFalse. It is nigh impossible to keep all commandments 100% of the time, but Jesus did show us it could be done. Can we obey all the commandments? - sure, not perfectly, but we can obey them all. When we fall short, God in His infinite mercy has provided a way that it can be accounted to us as perfect - repentance, and the Atonement. God magnifies our efforts as long as we are striving to obey. 2. You must keep the commandments before being exalted 3. Therefore obedience to the commandments can only take place after deathFalse. Your conclusion is somewhat convoluted - we are expected to obey the commandments in this life and if we never even try, then in no way can we expect exaltation. Obedience to the commandments can and should take place in this life as best as we can.
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