halconero Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 All things are possible for God. But we are not God and we are incapable of obeying the commandments. This is completely opposite of the LDS position which teaches that man is capable of obeying the commandments. We can go point by point and show how far away Mormonism is from the teachings of Christianity. What's happening right now is that you're conflating what Mormons believe is human potential vs. human reality. We don't believe that God gives impossible commandments, no. We believe that every commandment may be kept in and through the grace of Jesus Christ, yes. What Mormonism also recognizes is that every human, save Jesus Christ, has fallen short of their potential through use of their agency to disobey God. You're seeing the statement "God prepares a way for man to keep his commandments" as the same as "Mormons claim that mankind can keep that commandments and be perfect by themselves." The latter is a true doctrine of the Church, the latter is untrue. The Way prepared by God for the keeping of his commandments is Jesus Christ. There have been times, Canadaigua, where I have been sorely tempted to break a specific commandment of God. But through prayer and fasting Christ has helped me come out conqueror. Was it my own will and strength that helped me overcome? Heaven forbid. Does that mean that I've kept the commandments perfectly? No. I am in need of grace as much as any man or woman. Does that mean that I stop striving, or that I believe I am doomed to break a commandment even if I rely on God? No. Through the grace of Christ there is no sin, task, or temptation which cannot be overcome. And if they are overcome can I boast of my own self? No. It was the atoning power of Christ which lifted me. I'll repeat it again: 1 Nephi 3:7 means that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will aid humanity in their quest to follow God. It means that when God gives a commandment, that he will aid mankind if the individual submits to his grace, and his way, which is His Son. Even you believe that to a degree. Though you are a fallen, frail, mortal now, who has sinned, you too believe that there will come a time in Heaven where you will not commit sin, where you will keep the commandments of God forever and ever. How? Through Christ. This verse does not mean that we believe we are sinless perfectionists who are wholly capable of going through life without the divine aid of the Saviour. The idea is damnable. This is a good example, from Latter-day Saint scripture, of what happens when we believe happens when an individual strikes out on their own and tries to keep the commandments by their own power: 4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him. 5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them. 6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men. 7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words— 8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of theadversary; and he would have been with you in every time oftrouble. 9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall. 10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;
Canadaigua Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 What's happening right now is that you're conflating what Mormons believe is human potential vs. human reality. We don't believe that God gives impossible commandments, no. We believe that every commandment may be kept in and through the grace of Jesus Christ, yes. What Mormonism also recognizes is that every human, save Jesus Christ, has fallen short of their potential through use of their agency to disobey God. . .I'll repeat it again: 1 Nephi 3:7 means that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will aid humanity in their quest to follow God. It means that when God gives a commandment, that he will aid mankind if the individual submits to his grace, and his way, which is His Son.And with God's help you believe that you have the ability to obey the commandments. Agree or disagree?
Canadaigua Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 Read The entire Chapters . In His Debt/Grace Anakin7It sounds like LDS believe that they can disobey the commandments and expect that their sins will be forgiven. Is that what I am hearing?
halconero Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 And with God's help you believe that you have the ability to obey the commandments. Agree or disagree? Through the atoning grace of Christ I hope to one day, probably after I die. Currently I stink at the process. I suspect that my current strivings will be perfected beyond the veil.
halconero Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 It sounds like LDS believe that they can disobey the commandments and expect that their sins will be forgiven. Is that what I am hearing? Actually, Latter-day Saint scripture is very clear that we are not forgiven in our sins, but from our sins. 1
Canadaigua Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 Actually, Latter-day Saint scripture is very clear that we are not forgiven in our sins, but from our sins.Which means that in order to be forgiven you need to obedient to the commandments. Right? 2
Canadaigua Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 Through the atoning grace of Christ I hope to one day, probably after I die. Currently I stink at the process. I suspect that my current strivings will be perfected beyond the veil.Why do you believe that you don't have the ability today to obey the commandments? 1
halconero Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 Which means that in order to be forgiven you need to obedient to the commandments. Right? No. The sacrament prayers (communion) and the sacrament itself, which plays a huge role in forgiveness in Latter-day Saint theology, asks for a willingness to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, to remember him, and keep his commandments. I'm pretty much willing to do those things most of the time, but I sometimes fault in the actual practice.
halconero Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) Why do you believe that you don't have the ability today to obey the commandments? A mixture of self-doubt, fear, and the fiery darts of Satan. The fault is not in Christ or the Father, they're definitely providing a way (Christ's grace), but I sometimes ignore that or can't quite see it in the turmoil of life. I'll add though that the more I accept that enabling grace into my life, and the more fear I cast out, the easier it becomes to discipline myself in the strait and narrow. Edited September 20, 2014 by halconero
Canadaigua Posted September 20, 2014 Author Posted September 20, 2014 Finding Forgiveness - Ensign May 1995 - ensignIn The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball gives a superb guide to forgiveness through repentance. It has helped many find their way back. He identifies five essential elements of repentance.Sorrow for sin. Study and ponder to determine how serious the Lord defines your transgression to be. That will bring healing sorrow and remorse. It will also bring a sincere desire for change and a willingness to submit to every requirement for forgiveness. Alma taught, “Justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.” 9Abandonment of sin. This is an unyielding, permanent resolve to not repeat the transgression. By keeping this commitment, the bitter aftertaste of that sin need not be experienced again. Remember: “But unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return.”10 Joseph Smith declared: “Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God.” 11Confession of sin. You always need to confess your sins to the Lord. If they are serious transgressions, such as immorality, they need to be confessed to a bishop or stake president. Please understand that confession is not repentance. It is an essential step, but is not of itself adequate. Partial confession by mentioning lesser mistakes will not help you resolve a more serious, undisclosed transgression. Essential to forgiveness is a willingness to fully disclose to the Lord and, where necessary, His priesthood judge all that you have done. Remember, “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” 12Restitution for sin. You must restore as far as possible all that which is stolen, damaged, or defiled. Willing restitution is concrete evidence to the Lord that you are committed to do all you can to repent.Obedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins. It includes things you might not initially consider part of repentance, such as attending meetings, paying tithing, giving service, and forgiving others. The Lord said: “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” 13 The above quote is from LDS.org--Ensign--Finding Forgiveness--Elder Richard G Scott. In order to receive forgiveness of sins through repentance you must abandon your sins/obey all the commandments.
Popular Post halconero Posted September 20, 2014 Popular Post Posted September 20, 2014 Yup. And I can't do that of my power. The abandonment of sin and the adherence to commandments isn't something that mankind can do by himself. It is something obtained through the grace of Christ. The atonement doesn't kick in after forgiveness, the grace of Christ aids in repentance, aids in striving, aids in overcoming. And when I say "aid" I don't mean in a supplementary role, but in a "MAKES THE WHOLE THING POSSIBLE" role.To be utterly frank, it is you who is limiting Christ's power. You who say that the transformed saint is forever limited to sinfulness. It is the Gospel of Jesus and the Apostles which teaches that the Saint may strive, hope, endure, and come off conquerer through Christ. You limit the Atonement, and exclude it from the hopeful strivings of both the redeemed and those in hope of redemption.You tell us that God gives us commandments, and that even with the redemption and grace of Christ, the Way and Truth revealed by God, we cannot follow him. Yet your own theology contradicts this, because you believe that in the Heavenly State that you will be perfect, fully capable of keeping the commandments of God. 5
Anakin7 Posted September 20, 2014 Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) The Awesome Grace of Christ - http://www.14lds.com/grace3.htm In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited September 20, 2014 by Anakin7
Flyonthewall Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 Yup. And I can't do that of my power. The abandonment of sin and the adherence to commandments isn't something that mankind can do by himself. It is something obtained through the grace of Christ. The atonement doesn't kick in after forgiveness, the grace of Christ aids in repentance, aids in striving, aids in overcoming. And when I say "aid" I don't mean in a supplementary role, but in a "MAKES THE WHOLE THING POSSIBLE" role. To be utterly frank, it is you who is limiting Christ's power. You who say that the transformed saint is forever limited to sinfulness. It is the Gospel of Jesus and the Apostles which teaches that the Saint may strive, hope, endure, and come off conquerer through Christ. You limit the Atonement, and exclude it from the hopeful strivings of both the redeemed and those in hope of redemption. You tell us that God gives us commandments, and that even with the redemption and grace of Christ, the Way and Truth revealed by God, we cannot follow him. Yet your own theology contradicts this, because you believe that in the Heavenly State that you will be perfect, fully capable of keeping the commandments of God.It goes hand in hand with the "do nothing" gospel being preached - I can't obey all commandments so I don't even have to try. Jesus does it all for me.
Vance Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 It goes hand in hand with the "do nothing" gospel being preached - I can't obey all commandments so I don't even have to try. Jesus does it all for me.The indolent gospel.
Teancum Posted September 22, 2014 Posted September 22, 2014 1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. The verse above from 1 Nephi 3:7 is a popular verse in the Book of Mormon and is often quoted by LDS. This verse teaches that man has the ability to keep the commandments. I have asked LDS if they believe that they have the ability to keep all of the commandments and most have said that they do have this ability. Are there any LDS that believe that they don't have the ability to keep the commandments? No. Nope. Nada. No way man!
Canadaigua Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 It goes hand in hand with the "do nothing" gospel being preached - I can't obey all commandments so I don't even have to try. Jesus does it all for me.1 Nephi 3:7 7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. According to this verse from the Book of Mormon are there any commandments that you cannot keep if you really tried?
Canadaigua Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 The indolent gospel.Are you obeying the LDS gospel?
thesometimesaint Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Are you obeying the LDS gospel? Yes, as well as I can. For those times I can't there is repentance.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 1 Nephi 3:7 7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. According to this verse from the Book of Mormon are there any commandments that you cannot keep if you really tried?I guess you missed Hal's post? We can keep them only through Christ. Not of our own will but through the grace of Christ. You do indeed limit the atonement. Here is his post. Maybe this time you will respond to it. Yup. And I can't do that of my power. The abandonment of sin and the adherence to commandments isn't something that mankind can do by himself. It is something obtained through the grace of Christ. The atonement doesn't kick in after forgiveness, the grace of Christ aids in repentance, aids in striving, aids in overcoming. And when I say "aid" I don't mean in a supplementary role, but in a "MAKES THE WHOLE THING POSSIBLE" role.To be utterly frank, it is you who is limiting Christ's power. You who say that the transformed saint is forever limited to sinfulness. It is the Gospel of Jesus and the Apostles which teaches that the Saint may strive, hope, endure, and come off conquerer through Christ. You limit the Atonement, and exclude it from the hopeful strivings of both the redeemed and those in hope of redemption.You tell us that God gives us commandments, and that even with the redemption and grace of Christ, the Way and Truth revealed by God, we cannot follow him. Yet your own theology contradicts this, because you believe that in the Heavenly State that you will be perfect, fully capable of keeping the commandments of God.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Are you obeying the LDS gospel?Are you obeying Christ's gospel? The "LDS" gospel is Christ's gospel. Troll moar. Edited December 18, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
CV75 Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. The verse above from 1 Nephi 3:7 is a popular verse in the Book of Mormon and is often quoted by LDS. This verse teaches that man has the ability to keep the commandments. I have asked LDS if they believe that they have the ability to keep all of the commandments and most have said that they do have this ability. Are there any LDS that believe that they don't have the ability to keep the commandments?It does not teach about man's ability to keep the commandments so much as about the Lord preparing a way for us to do so. This involves the principles of grace and the atonement. For example, it is a commandment that we pay the penalty for our sins, and Christ prepared the way for us to do so, through Him. He also strengthens us against temptation and beyond our natural capacity. But just because He has prepared a way, it does not mean we always choose to take it.
Vance Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Do you obey the LDS gospel? When are you going to answer questions asked of you?
pogi Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Man is incapable of obeying all of the commandments. You are suggesting that it is impossible? Vance brought up this bible passage: 1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Please explain yourself. Edit to add a few more (mostly from the ESV for copy and paste reasons): Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through him who strengthens me.Mark 9:23 - And Jesus said to him, “‘If thou cans't believe, all things are possible to him that believeth”Matthew 17:20 - He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”Isaiah 41:10 - Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Edited December 18, 2014 by pogi 1
Flyonthewall Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 1 Nephi 3:7 7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. According to this verse from the Book of Mormon are there any commandments that you cannot keep if you really tried?There are not any commandments that we cannot keep. Our problem, as imperfect people is that we do not keep all of them consistently. God understood this about us and prepared a way for us to erase our sins when we do not keep the commandments - it is called repentance... which is also a commandment. Repentance will not be a one time thing, we need to repent whenever it is needed.
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