Does Man Have The Ability To Obey All Of The Commandments?

[Bobbieaware]

They don't believe what you're saying they believe (EV's, etc.). When they say it's a free gift, it means your salvation is a free gift not that you won't be judged and in need of repentance and forgiveness. That's still a requirement, I believe they are saying our BoM scripture, "we are saved by Grace, after all we can do" is wrong. Is it just semantics? Is it that LDS feel like they need to continually progress to reach the top of the ladder, per Joseph Smith? Non LDS Christians work in a different way, they obey out of a grateful heart only. They obey because of that Grace. Maybe I'm way off base, but personally don't feel LDS talk about Grace the same way. This has been my observation of both LDS and non LDS, but really I'm not in the heart or heads of these people in both faiths to know.

I believe both the Latter-day Saints, as well as their non-LDS critics, have been misinterpreting that famous verse in 2 Nephi 25 for many years. If you carefully listen to Elder Christofferson's last General Conference address (October 2014), you'll see and hear that verse finally used correctly for once. What the verse means (and based on his address, Apostle Christofferson really seems to "get it ") is that a man can spend his entire life exhaustively trying to do everything in his power as a fallen mortal to be found good and righteous before God, but in spite of all this diligent labor, unless that man comes unto God, and is reconciled to Him by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, that man will not be found righteous before God and will not be saved from sin and spiritual death.

The verses before and after verse 23 make it clear Neph's primary focus is to labor diligently that he might persuade his people to come unto God and be reconciled unto him by Jesus Christ; he is not laboring diligently in the desperate hope of receiving God's grace in some future time, after he's done all he can do to "earn" that grace. I know I'm right on this point and one day all the saints will be taught Nephi wasn't teaching his people God will only extend his grace to a man until he's "proved himself" after many years of unassisted labor as a semi-converted natural man.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Calm]

Have you read "Believing Christ"?

[Bobbieaware]

Have you read "Believing Christ"?

I basically stopped reading "church books" years ago and only concentrated on the scriptures. Why do you ask? Does the author agree with my analysis?

[Calm]

If I understand you correctly, yes.  And it has been a very popular book ever since it came out.

[Mars]

I agree with bobbieaware. Came to see it that way about two years ago while struggling to overcome a certain weakness of mine.

Romans 8 was the catalyst for me. I'll give elder christoffersons talk a listen tomorrow during my commute.

[Mars]

@bobbieaware

 

I can't say I agree with the sentiment of Elder Christofferson 'finally' getting it - i.e. that everyone before him has painted a picture of laboring diligently for forgiveness rather than laboring diligently to convince people to come unto Christ, but I did take time this morning to really listen to Elder Christofferson's talk and I agree with you about his viewpoint. 

 

And it's refreshing and joyful to know that you don't have to get it all right before forgiveness comes.

[intra]

How do YOU reconcile your presentation of Romans with other scriptures that I have provided?

 

simply: 

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

(Philippians 3:7-9)

were you godly when He died on the cross to justify you? but while we were enemies of God, sinners and all running after our own vanity, sons of the devil, He died for us, making atonement so that we might be justified in Him, having a righteousness that is not our own. 

this is why Jah sent His Christ to propitiate for us - because as we have agreed, no human work can attain eternal life! before the majesty of His holiness, every one of our righteous acts are like menstrual cloths, as Paul reiterates, counted as dung. 

without Christ, without the mercy of God, we can 'work' nothing but vanity. 

so Jesus Christ is how this is true: 

 

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

[Romans 4:3-8]

it is the mystery of God, revealed in Christ, and no surprise that the world which rejects Him and runs after false prophets that tickle their ears does not comprehend it. it's not "my presentation of it" or "my interpretation of it" -- the Holy Spirit gives understanding, if you are found in Him, and all i do when i say Jah is the one who justifies the ungodly is literally quote the scripture. it's the one who does not believe who has to twist the words and replace their meanings until they fit their carnal thinking. 

or do you not know? have you not heard? Salvation has come for all men, the free gift of God! 

 

And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; 

and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come;

and he who is thirsting -- let him come;

and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.

(Revelation 22:17) 

 

the gospel is good news -- not a new and onerous burden!

come, drink the water without price, for the price has been paid for you, and what is required is that you are willing, and believe. taste and see; prove the Lord, that He is good! 

 

 

I'm thinking intra is a brilliantly devised bit of software meant to fool Mormons during the Turing Test.

i can firmly attest, there is no brilliance in heaven or on earth like the brilliance of my Creator -- no one is like Him, and there is no other god but Him.  

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made:

marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

(Psalm 139:14) 

[intra]

intra was born ungodly, the son of spiritual ungodliness, a clay made of blood mixed with dust. 

Jah sent His Son, and chose intra to receive Him, and baptized intra into Him, so that intra is no more, crucified with Him, and raised with Him in Spirit, made a new creation - no longer do the old things live. 

ungodly intra was justified by His blood, changed and made new, so intra no longer lives, but Christ lives in intra; intra is a new creation. 
the just recompense of ungodly intra and intra's ungodly deeds was hung upon Christ, and He paid the penalty for intra's ungodliness. 
He put in intra a clean heart, and a new spirit, and imputed to intra His righteousness, not intra's righteousness, not a righteousness of doing and acting in the flesh - but a righteousness by faith in the one who lifted intra from death and set Him in the ways of life. 

intra did not choose. intra did not have in himself the power to hear, so that he could believe, or the power to see, that he could know. intra was blind and Jah led Him in paths he had not known. 

 

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.
(Proverbs 20:12) 

 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
(Isaiah 42:16) 

intra was adopted. he had no birthright of eternal life. 
intra is a new creation, not a thing that set aside his glory - of glory, intra has none - but that Christ has blessed Him with grace beyond measure. 

for this intra will sing to Jah and praise Him all the days of His life

[Anakin7]

    Thank you.

 

In His Debt/Grace

     Anakin7

Edited January 21, 2015 by Anakin7

[Flyonthewall]

simply: 

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith(Philippians 3:7-9)

were you godly when He died on the cross to justify you? but while we were enemies of God, sinners and all running after our own vanity, sons of the devil, He died for us, making atonement so that we might be justified in Him, having a righteousness that is not our own. 

this is why Jah sent His Christ to propitiate for us - because as we have agreed, no human work can attain eternal life! before the majesty of His holiness, every one of our righteous acts are like menstrual cloths, as Paul reiterates, counted as dung. 

without Christ, without the mercy of God, we can 'work' nothing but vanity.

You are a blustery one. Perhaps everyone of YOUR righteous acts are like menstrual cloths - or maybe you have lost the context of what you have cited.

so Jesus Christ is how this is true: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.[Romans 4:3-8]

James 2. John 8:39 - Who is your father?

it is the mystery of God, revealed in Christ, and no surprise that the world which rejects Him and runs after false prophets that tickle their ears does not comprehend it. it's not "my presentation of it" or "my interpretation of it" -- the Holy Spirit gives understanding, if you are found in Him, and all i do when i say Jah is the one who justifies the ungodly is literally quote the scripture. it's the one who does not believe who has to twist the words and replace their meanings until they fit their carnal thinking.

Unfortunately there are many other scriptures that refute your understanding of that verse. But I do understand, it is much easier to do nothing than actually do as Jesus commands.

or do you not know? have you not heard? Salvation has come for all men, the free gift of God! 

And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.

(Revelation 22:17) 

 

the gospel is good news -- not a new and onerous burden!

come, drink the water without price, for the price has been paid for you, and what is required is that you are willing, and believe. taste and see; prove the Lord, that He is good! 

 

i can firmly attest, there is no brilliance in heaven or on earth like the brilliance of my Creator -- no one is like Him, and there is no other god but Him.  

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.(Psalm 139:14)

Matthew 11:28

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

What does it mean to "take my yoke upon you"? Notice it does not say "I will put my yoke upon you" - you will need to DO something.

So while you are sitting around doing nothing, waiting for your salvation to fall into your lap, others will be striving to lay up treasure in heaven, taking upon them the yoke of Christ, and DOING the work of their father.

[Anakin7]

    In response to "Filthy rags"  taken out of context by LDS critics - read - http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm

    http://www.inplainsite.org/html/filthy_rags.html

 

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                 Anakin7

Edited January 22, 2015 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

Intra, I wonder if you understand that the religion of the Latter-day Saints teaches us that fallen man, devoid of the Spirit, is totally incapable of doing anything at all that is righteousness? No less than the prophet Moroni most solemnly testifies that the only way a man can think, feel or do anything that is good and righteous is only by means of the redemption of Christ and the power and gifts of the Spirit God?

 

If you take the time to carefully read and ponder the following solemn testimony from Moroni, I'm wondering if you'll continue to hammer away at your strawman argument that the Latter-day Saints don't believe it is only through the redemption and power of Christ that men can do good? Here is Moroni's testimony concerning the one and only way a man can do good works:

 

 

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

 24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

 25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

[teddyaware]

Intra, I wonder if you understand that the religion of the Latter-day Saints teaches us that fallen man, devoid of the Spirit, is totally incapable of doing anything at all that is righteousness? No less than the prophet Moroni most solemnly testifies that the only way a man can think, feel or do anything that is good and righteous is only by means of the redemption of Christ and the power and gifts of the Spirit God.

 

If you take the time to carefully read and ponder the following solemn testimony from Moroni, I'm wondering if you'll continue to hammer away at your strawman argument that the Latter-day Saints don't believe it is only through the redemption and power of Christ that men can do good? Here is Moroni's testimony concerning the one and only way a man can do good works:

 

 

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

Edited January 22, 2015 by teddyaware