The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) perhaps you are not true LDS then, since the modus operandi appears to be "intra quotes scriptures, and mormons look for ways to accuse intra"To be fair Intra is guilty of most of the accusations. Edited January 17, 2015 by The Nehor 1
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Intra Sorry you have a problem with the links I post which support the True Biblical Salvation/Soteriological Form/Model which True LDS Teachings/Thought/Practice are in complete Chorus. As Joseph Smith stated that all churches have truth and we must take up those truths or we will not come out True Mormons [ Paraphrase]. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 17, 2015 by Anakin7
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (musical interlude II) ♪♪ For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.He alone is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be greatly shaken. How long will all of you attack a man to batter him, like a leaning wall, a tottering fence? They only plan to thrust him down from his high position. They take pleasure in falsehood.They bless with their mouths, but inwardly they curse. (Psalm 62:1-4) ♫♪ Selah
Vance Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 1 Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Christ died for the ungodly in hopes that they would repent from their ungodly ways. If they don't repent, then they will not be shown mercy and forgiveness.
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 "My works" are to Glorify the Lord not myself thank you very much. By the way where do you fellowship to worship ?. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) intra sorry wrong link !. Your lol displays your christian humility, thanks for reminding me there are individuals like you still in the world.Okay let's try this again with humility - http://www.knollwoodchurch.org/how_saved.html .By the way are you Once Saved Alaways Saved ?. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 17, 2015 by Anakin7
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 i said Romans 4:3-8, not a jumble of other verses. you claim i am not interpreting it correctly, though all i have done is directly quote it. explain what Paul really means when He says it is credited as righteousness when the one who does no works believes in He who justifies the ungodly. explain how "He who justifies the ungodly" really means He does not justify the ungodly.How do YOU reconcile your presentation of Romans with other scriptures that I have provided? Look at Romans 2 - 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,He then goes on to state that God is no respecter of persons - Jews and Gentiles are the same. I have already cited Romans 2:13 Chapter 3 starts with " 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" The Law of Moses does not give the Jews any advantage over the gentiles. Verse 28 -" 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Works of the Law of Moses. Faith has works to make it alive. Will dead faith avail anything? And BYW, I don't see anywhere in Romans 3:4-8 that God will justify the ungodly. 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Canadaigua Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 ". . .Faith has works to make it alive. . ."So you believe that you have to do works in order to have faith?
Canadaigua Posted January 17, 2015 Author Posted January 17, 2015 I have already cited Romans 2:13 Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. That is absolutely true. If a person kept the law perfectly then that person would be justified before God because he would be without sin. However there is a problem because we ALL sin therefore it is impossible to be justified by obedience to the law because nobody is obedient to the law. The problem with pulling out a single verse in an attempt to support your position is that you are misrepresenting what Paul was trying to teach. So let's look a few verses down and see if Paul really taught that justification was obtained by obedience to the law. Romans 2:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God You see here is the problem. IF a person kept the law then that person would be justified--however NOBODY keeps the law.
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 So you believe that you have to do works in order to have faith?Absolutely. Faith is putting your belief into practice.
Tacenda Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 exactly what i am trying to help you to see is that we must take Christ seriously -- it does not matter even if we could keep all the commandments, we are still not perfect. we have need of Christ. we are not justified by keeping all the commandments, but we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus, and brought near by His blood. we are not saved by works, but by grace - and what grace? the Lamb who was slain! through faith in whom all of us ungodly and vain creatures are offered an inheritance, even the adoption as sons and daughters of God.not one of us has kept the commands of God in all things, and even if we could, God does not delight in the strength of men, but in those that love His mercy. have i not said there is nothing in me worthy of praise except that God has shown me mercy? and how has He shown me mercy, but through the Lord Jesus Christ? have i given anyone praise except the Lord? if you think i do not take Christ seriously, you have not understood anything i have said at all. This is really spot on.
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 True Grace [charis] must be accepted/accessed/activated by True Faith [pistis]. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Work we must but the lunch is Free. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 17, 2015 by Anakin7 1
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. That is absolutely true. If a person kept the law perfectly then that person would be justified before God because he would be without sin. However there is a problem because we ALL sin therefore it is impossible to be justified by obedience to the law because nobody is obedient to the law. The problem with pulling out a single verse in an attempt to support your position is that you are misrepresenting what Paul was trying to teach. So let's look a few verses down and see if Paul really taught that justification was obtained by obedience to the law. Romans 2:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God You see here is the problem. IF a person kept the law then that person would be justified--however NOBODY keeps the law.I see the problem in your presentation. You keep insisting that obedience has to be perfect - it does not not. If we were perfect, there would be no need of the Atonement. We are justified by grace through faith. If you are not putting your belief into practice(faith), grace will not justify you. Therefore, if you are striving to live your faith, by obedience to the command of Jesus Christ(obedience include repentance as we all fall short), then there is justification. But if you tell yourself that I cannot obey one command, and do nothing to try and obey, then there will be no justification. 1
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 This is really spot on.It would be more accurate if when they say "faith", it does not mean mere belief. The devils believe also... Faith is putting your belief into practice, which is works. You have to DO something. We are not saved BY our works, we are saved by grace through our faith, which includes works - not works of the Law of Moses, but works of obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ. Faith, if you will, is like a car. If all it does is sit in the driveway, it will do you no good. In order for it to do something for you, YOU have to get in it and operate it. Having a car is nice, but if you never drive it, what is the point? 3
Mars Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I'm thinking intra is a brilliantly devised bit of software meant to fool Mormons during the Turing Test. 3
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Once again - For Paul there is no such thing as True Faith without Obedience [Romans 1:5] or Active Love [Galatians 5:6]. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 That's because those who actually have faith in Christ obey Him. 3
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 That is True LDS/Biblical Doctrine !. Remember Hebrews 5:9 In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
Bobbieaware Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 That's because those who actually have faith in Christ obey Him.Brilliant! That's why the Saviour said, "why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things I say.?" Obedience to the commandments should be the focus of our faith; in the same way Abraham manifested his faith by obedience to the commandment to offer up Isaac in sacrifice. If Abraham neglected or refused to obey the commandment, it would have been prima facia evidence he lacked true faith in the Lord, 1
Anakin7 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Just read my NIV Bible note again for John 6:29 - Work of God : "Believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work' God calls for - the one that leads to Eternal Life". So believing in Christ Jesus is a 100% absolute necessary work we do with our True Faith [pistis] to Accept/Access/Activate True Grace [charis]. Done out of Love and obedience to our Lord of Life/Lord/Redeemer/Saviour/God/King/Master Christ Jesus. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 18, 2015 by Anakin7
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Brilliant! That's why the Saviour said, "why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things I say.?" Obedience to the commandments should be the focus of our faith; in the same way Abraham manifested his faith by obedience to the commandment to offer up Isaac in sacrifice. If Abraham neglected or refused to obey the commandment, it would have been prima facia evidence he lacked true faith in the Lord,They don't believe what you're saying they believe (EV's, etc.). When they say it's a free gift, it means your salvation is a free gift not that you won't be judged and in need of repentance and forgiveness. That's still a requirement, I believe they are saying our BoM scripture, "we are saved by Grace, after all we can do" is wrong. Is it just semantics? Is it that LDS feel like they need to continually progress to reach the top of the ladder, per Joseph Smith? Non LDS Christians work in a different way, they obey out of a grateful heart only. They obey because of that Grace. Maybe I'm way off base, but personally don't feel LDS talk about Grace the same way. This has been my observation of both LDS and non LDS, but really I'm not in the heart or heads of these people in both faiths to know. 1
Flyonthewall Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 They don't believe what you're saying they believe (EV's, etc.). When they say it's a free gift, it means your salvation is a free gift not that you won't be judged and in need of repentance and forgiveness. That's still a requirement, I believe they are saying our BoM scripture, "we are saved by Grace, after all we can do" is wrong. Is it just semantics? Is it that LDS feel like they need to continually progress to reach the top of the ladder, per Joseph Smith? Non LDS Christians work in a different way, they obey out of a grateful heart only. They obey because of that Grace. Maybe I'm way off base, but personally don't feel LDS talk about Grace the same way. This has been my observation of both LDS and non LDS, but really I'm not in the heart or heads of these people in both faiths to know.The "free gift" salvation is the resurrection. That evens the playing field so that everything else is granted according to each individual's deeds. I like to think it is a semantics issue, but most EVs believe we are entirely wrong with no overlapping beliefs. I like to believe that we must continually progress to reach the top of the ladder, so to speak, because that is what God has invited us and wants us to do. Now, does that mean we do so for purely selfish reasons? No. Our progression is to become more Christlike, and selfishness has no part in that. Part of our progression is obedience with a grateful heart. It is the Grace of God that makes our "salvation" possible, as we can not earn it for ourselves.
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The "free gift" salvation is the resurrection. That evens the playing field so that everything else is granted according to each individual's deeds.I like to think it is a semantics issue, but most EVs believe we are entirely wrong with no overlapping beliefs.I like to believe that we must continually progress to reach the top of the ladder, so to speak, because that is what God has invited us and wants us to do. Now, does that mean we do so for purely selfish reasons? No. Our progression is to become more Christlike, and selfishness has no part in that. Part of our progression is obedience with a grateful heart.It is the Grace of God that makes our "salvation" possible, as we can not earn it for ourselves.Thank you for reiterating a lot of what I said, I was thinking I didn't make sense, but will think about your added thoughts to mine.
Vance Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Does "free" mean without price or does it mean available to all? The resurrection is without price to us, but was it without price to Jesus?
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