intra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The words are true. Your interpretation of them is not.When read for comprehension, the meaning is clear.did i give an interpretation or a quote? how about this -- is Paul more clear here? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9) are you telling me the right 'interpretation' is that salvation is by works, not of faith, done by ourselves, earned and not given as a gift?
intra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I have pointed you to Romans, the very book you are citing. That is not a general direction, that is very specific. Take in what Paul is teaching and it will be clear.You make a good faith effort and we will go from thereuh huh. and i quoted Romans. several times. you have no comment on any of that? do you believe God justifies the ungodly? do you believe that God counts faith as righteousness in a man who does no works, but believes in the one God has sent?
Flyonthewall Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 did i give an interpretation or a quote? how about this -- is Paul more clear here? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9) are you telling me the right 'interpretation' is that salvation is by works, not of faith, done by ourselves, earned and not given as a gift?What are the works he is speaking of? What does "faith" consist of?
intra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 What are the works he is speaking of? What does "faith" consist of?are there some kind of works that no man can boast of but are able to earn eternal life? do tell. do you believe God justifies the ungodly? if a man believes on Christ but does not work, does God credit it to him for righteousness? what kind of grace was Paul preaching that would cause some to "slanderously report" that he had a "do-nothing" gospel? do you preach the same kind of grace? if the world doesn't accuse you of having a "do-nothing" gospel, are you presenting the true gospel?
intra Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 you still beating your wife? sorry forgot you guys are mormons for a minute there. you still beating your wives ? xD
Mars Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 It's all right. I stopped taking you seriously a week ago.
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 It's all right. I stopped taking you seriously a week ago.& if you don't mind me asking, how long ago did you stop taking the Bible seriously?
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 are there some kind of works that no man can boast of but are able to earn eternal life? do tell.There are no kind of works that man can boast about and able to earn eternal life, but the works that your cited passage is speaking of are the works of the Law of Moses - not the works of faith. do you believe God justifies the ungodly?Of course not. if a man believes on Christ but does not work, does God credit it to him for righteousness? what kind of grace was Paul preaching that would cause some to "slanderously report" that he had a "do-nothing" gospel?Paul had no one "slanderously report" that he had a "do-nothing" gospel - did you miss this part: "Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."? There is a lot more being spoken of than you see. I invite you to not just read it and pick out individual verses out of context, but study it and see just what is being spoken of. Paul made sure he taught that it is the "doers of the law" not the "hearers only" that are justified. if the world doesn't accuse you of having a "do-nothing" gospel, are you presenting the true gospel?Accusations have nothing to do whether or not we present the true gospel. We preach the true gospel for the simple fact that Jesus has restored it.
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) do you believe God justifies the ungodly? Of course not. so you don't believe what is written in the epistle to the Romans, but you mean to teach me about it? For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.[Romans 4:3-8]have you read it? "with comprehension" ? who is it Paul speaks about here that "justifieth the ungodly" if it is not the Lord? Edited January 17, 2015 by intra
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Paul had no one "slanderously report" that he had a "do-nothing" gospel - did you miss this part: "Let us do evil, that good may come? please define "do-nothing gospel" i am not the expert in it that i presume you are. i am under the impression that by "do-nothing" you mean 'do not do righteousness' - is this correct? have you read: If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.(James 4:17) so to not do righteousness, when you know it is righteousness, is to do evil. is this correct? thereby knowingly refusing to do good works (i.e. "do-nothing") is tantamount to doing evil, so grace may abound.but again, i am guessing, because "do-nothing" is not the gospel i received -- hopefully someone more knowledgeable in the "do-nothing gospel" can clear this point of heresy up.. ?
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 There are no kind of works that man can boast about and able to earn eternal lifeah, so all works by which eternal life may be earned are works about which no man can boast! agree? and no work that a man could boast of is able to earn eternal life!agree? so then -- what kind of works is Paul talking about, when he writes to the believers in Ephesus - who are Gentiles, not Jews, and have not nor have ever had the law of Moses? all kinds that a man could boast of? none of which can possibly earn eternal life?
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 so you don't believe what is written in the epistle to the Romans, but you mean to teach me about it? For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.[Romans 3:4-8]And yet James contradicts this with 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? So which works are each of them speaking of? Context is everything for comprehension... if you are interested. have you read it? "with comprehension" ?I have. I see you have yet to do that. who is it Paul speaks about here that "justifieth the ungodly" if it is not the Lord?And yet Jude states: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage. How do you reconcile contradicting scriptures like these? You have demonstrated you reconcile them by taking the lower road - that God justifies the ungodly, and we should not perform any good works because Jesus has done it all - I just sit back and take a free ride.
Vance Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 is there something about being struck dumb "because you did not believe my words" that indicates to you Zachariah was found to be perfect in his eyes? oh brightest of bulbs, whose light cannot be comprehended by mortals, you say you know that the law cannot make you perfect, why do you think imperfection is necessarily a breaking of a commandment? is it your belief that Jesus is perfect because He kept the law? is that all He is to you? an example of obedience that you know you cannot match? is that some sort of salvation in your bright, bright mind? Christ elevated the law - He said to hate is as to murder. if the law of Moses was "a burden that neither we nor our fathers could bear" is salvation come to the earth in the form of an even stricter law? is "salvation" to the brightest of bulbs nothing more than the chance to be judged by an harsher law than that one that by which no flesh was justified and no one could be made perfect? i am dim, great and exalted luminary. would that you would shine on me, but i see shadows cast. I am not interested in wasting any more time on you.
Calm Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 & if you don't mind me asking, how long ago did you stop taking the Bible seriously? Do you believe that being a jerk will actually make anyone take the Bible more seriously than they do already or see the work of God in your words? 1
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 ah, so all works by which eternal life may be earned are works about which no man can boast! agree? and no work that a man could boast of is able to earn eternal life! agree?Agreed. so then -- what kind of works is Paul talking about, when he writes to the believers in Ephesus - who are Gentiles, not Jews, and have not nor have ever had the law of Moses?Never heard of the Law of Moses? Are you for real? Christianity was an offshoot of the Jewish faith, so anyone that was Christian knew of the Law of Moses. There were still discussions of there being no difference between Jew and Gentile, as is mentioned in that same chapter. all kinds that a man could boast of? none of which can possibly earn eternal life?We are saved by Grace through Faith. And as the scriptures state very plainly, Faith without works is dead. So works are required(as part of one's faith), but they do not "earn" eternal life. So you go right ahead and let somebody else do the works of faith and see how far that gets you. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 & if you don't mind me asking, how long ago did you stop taking the Bible seriously? what makes you think anyone has?when did you stop taking Christ seriously?
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 And yet James contradicts this with21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?So which works are each of them speaking of? Context is everything for comprehension... if you are interested.I have. I see you have yet to do that.And yet Jude states:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.How do you reconcile contradicting scriptures like these?You have demonstrated you reconcile them by taking the lower road - that God justifies the ungodly, and we should not perform any good works because Jesus has done it all - I just sit back and take a free ride.it is your opinion that Paul and James and Jude are contradictory? is that official LDS doctrine or just your own personal rejection of the scripture? where have i said "we should not perform any good works" ? by all means, point it out, if it is not a lie. are you not slanderously accusing me the same way some accused Paul? if you reject what is in Romans, why do you tell me "read Romans" ? if you don't reject Romans, why do you make Paul a liar when he says God justifies the ungodly who do no works but believe in Him who was sent?
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 For our Kandorian critic Busybody Pratter intra - http://www.14lds.com/grace.3.htm http://14lds.com/apply.htm http://www.14lds.com/works2.htm In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
Vance Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I take Romans very seriously, Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Anakin7 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 intra, You want us to talk/read Romans ? okay - http://www.14lds.com/rome.htm In His Debt/Grace Anakin7
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 what makes you think anyone has?when did you stop taking Christ seriously?exactly what i am trying to help you to see is that we must take Christ seriously -- it does not matter even if we could keep all the commandments, we are still not perfect. we have need of Christ. we are not justified by keeping all the commandments, but we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus, and brought near by His blood. we are not saved by works, but by grace - and what grace? the Lamb who was slain! through faith in whom all of us ungodly and vain creatures are offered an inheritance, even the adoption as sons and daughters of God.not one of us has kept the commands of God in all things, and even if we could, God does not delight in the strength of men, but in those that love His mercy. have i not said there is nothing in me worthy of praise except that God has shown me mercy? and how has He shown me mercy, but through the Lord Jesus Christ? have i given anyone praise except the Lord? if you think i do not take Christ seriously, you have not understood anything i have said at all.
Flyonthewall Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 it is your opinion that Paul and James and Jude are contradictory? is that official LDS doctrine or just your own personal rejection of the scripture?They are not contradictory to me, but to your presentation. where have i said "we should not perform any good works" ? by all means, point it out, if it is not a lie. are you not slanderously accusing me the same way some accused Paul?Aren't you the one that says Jesus has done it all and you can do nothing? if you reject what is in Romans, why do you tell me "read Romans" ? if you don't reject Romans, why do you make Paul a liar when he says God justifies the ungodly who do no works but believe in Him who was sent?I do not reject Romans, only your misrepresentation of it. I do not make Paul out to be a liar, but your misrepresentation of the Scriptures makes them contradictory. Context adds meaning. You do not. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Matthew 7:21check and matebtw no one is arguing Christ doesn't save us.
intra Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 what makes you think anyone has? as to why i have cause to think many do not take the Bible seriously, look back at the last 6 pages of this thread, and see how many times i have spoken from the Bible, and how much it has been ignored.
Calm Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 as to why i have cause to think many do not take the Bible seriously, look back at the last 6 pages of this thread, and see how many times i have spoken from the Bible, and how much it has been ignored. You are confusing how people are looking at you due to how you are behaving with how they look at the Bible due to what it says. 2
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