ERayR Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) So your false God set up a system where his creations and bound to fail.In addition he picks and chooses who will and will not fail before he creates them.Those who fail he will torture forever and ever. again this because HE decides it before they are created. And most of the thinking, feeling sentient, emotional being swill be in this eternal torment.This God is not worthy of worship. He is a monster. A rational thinking being will conclude this easily. This type of religion is dangerous. It is amazing that 21st century humans still believe such nonesense. I have said before I do not like this Calvinistic God. As far as the Calvinists are concerned I can agree that we worship different Gods. The one I worship loves his children and wants them to succeed and for all to be saved if they will. Edited December 29, 2014 by ERayR
Teancum Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 I have said before I do not like this Calvinistic God. As far as the Calvinists are concerned I can agree that we worship different Gods. The one I worship loves his children and wants them to succeed and for all to be saved if they will.While I have questions about religion in general the God of Mormonism is far more compelling to me than the God of Calvinsim. That God screams agains all reason and rationality which if there is a God he created us with. The God of Calvinsim is far worse than a cruel child torturing insects for pleasure. 2
ERayR Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 While I have questions about religion in general the God of Mormonism is far more compelling to me than the God of Calvinsim. That God screams agains all reason and rationality which if there is a God he created us with. The God of Calvinsim is far worse than a cruel child torturing insects for pleasure. Again we are in agreement. Perhaps the sky is falling. 1
Gervin Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 In Nephite society the law of Moses was administered under the independent ecclesiastical authority of the Church, while a constitutional system of government with enshrined and strictly enforced provisions for freedom of conscience and religion was administered under non-ecclesiastical secular authority. That's quite the declarative sentence. Who do you imagine was running this constitutional system of government? Under Nephite law, no one was compelled to live under the law of Moses unless they wanted to do so. Unbelievers were left alone in their state of unbelief as long as they didn'tinflict harm or injury on anyone else. Not quite. The one example of a person not living the law of Moses is summarily kicked out of the country: 19/ Now this man went over to the land of Jershon also, to preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once the people of the Lamanites.20/ But behold they were more wise than many of the Nephites; for they took him, and bound him, and carried him before Ammon, who was a high priest over that people.21/ And it came to pass that he caused that he should be carried out of the land.
teddyaware Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) That's quite the declarative sentence. Who do you imagine was running this constitutional system of government? Not quite. The one example of a person not living the law of Moses is summarily kicked out of the country: 19/ Now this man went over to the land of Jershon also, to preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once the people of the Lamanites.20/ But behold they were more wise than many of the Nephites; for they took him, and bound him, and carried him before Ammon, who was a high priest over that people.21/ And it came to pass that he caused that he should be carried out of the land. Duplicate Edited December 29, 2014 by teddyaware
teddyaware Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) That's quite the declarative sentence. Who do you imagine was running this constitutional system of government? Not quite. The one example of a person not living the law of Moses is summarily kicked out of the country: 19/ Now this man went over to the land of Jershon also, to preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once the people of the Lamanites.20/ But behold they were more wise than many of the Nephites; for they took him, and bound him, and carried him before Ammon, who was a high priest over that people.21/ And it came to pass that he caused that he should be carried out of the land. As the following verses from the same chapter amply demonstrate, a man could not be cast out of Nephite society for being an atheist who would not abide by the Law of Moses. The meaning is perfectly clear and unambiguous (take special note of the portions in bold): 6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ. 7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds. 8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve. 9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him. 10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if herobbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished. 11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds. 12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ. (Alma 30) As he was preaching, Korihor began to transgress the laws of the land through persecution, disturbing of the peace and public slander (remember that even in the US today, those who unlawfully protest and disturb the peace can rightfully be carried away and arrested for doing so). Edited December 29, 2014 by teddyaware
Gervin Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 As the following verses from the same chapter amply demonstrate, a man could not be cast out of Nephite society for being an atheist who would not abide by the Law of Moses. The meaning is perfectly clear and unambiguous (take special note of the portions in bold): 6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ. 7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds. 8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve. 9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him. 10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if herobbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished. 11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds. 12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ. (Alma 30) As he was preaching, Korihor began to transgress the laws of the land through persecution, disturbing of the peace and public slander (remember that even in the US today, those who unlawfully protest and disturb the peace can rightfully be carried away and arrested for doing so). You simply fabricated the notion that Korihor was involved with persecution, disturbing the peace, and public slander: Alma says that he was only "preaching." He was not guilty of any of the offenses listed as grounds for punishment - murder, stealing, robbery and adultery. So, who was running the constitutional system of government in Jershon?
teddyaware Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 You simply fabricated the notion that Korihor was involved with persecution, disturbing the peace, and public slander: Alma says that he was only "preaching." He was not guilty of any of the offenses listed as grounds for punishment - murder, stealing, robbery and adultery. So, who was running the constitutional system of government in Jershon? Why do you utterly disregard the plain meaning of the verses I quoted that say the Nephite laws guaranteed freedom of religion and freedom of non-belief? The only logical explanation for the conduct of those who opposed Korihor is that they either ignored their own laws (sacrosanct laws that were solemnly referred to in the very same chapter) or that Korihor was crossing the lines of legality by public slander (there was a law against lying and he accused the Nephite leaders of living lives of indolence while supposedly glutting themselves on the labors of the people) and disturbing the peace. See for yourself that lying was against the law and legally actionable. 17 Nevertheless, they durst not lie, if it were known, for fear of the law, for liars were punished; therefore they pretended to preach according to their belief; and now the law could have no power on any man for his belief. (Alma 1) Korihor went beyond merely expressing his beliefs because he boldly went on to slander the Nephite leaders while knowing doing so was punishable by law. You see, there are answers if you look diligently enough for them rather than rashly jumping to conclusions just because there are ulterior motives for one WANTING to believe something to be true when it actually isn't. Lying and slander were against Nephite law and Korihor was a liar possessed of a lying spirit, as Alma himself so testified in the same chapter.
Gervin Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 Why do you utterly disregard the plain meaning of the verses I quoted that say the Nephite laws guaranteed freedom of religion and freedom of non-belief?The people of Ammon strictly followed the law of Moses, so who was running the constitutional government that allowed free speech and enforced these "Nephite laws?"
Vance Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) I suppose I could introduce myself. I am of the opinion that the Christian religion is best summarized by the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Westminster Larger Catechism, and the Westminster Smaller Catechism. Those documents may be viewed at the following web page:http://opc.org/confessions.htmlSo, post-biblical man-made doctrine for you then. Not surprising. Please tell me, did Bill McKeever err in his review of the book Miracle of Forgiveness?Bill Mckeever rarely gets anything right. The fact that you are using MRM (a totally uncredible source) as your source makes your complaints uncredible. Edited December 29, 2014 by Vance
teddyaware Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) The people of Ammon strictly followed the law of Moses, so who was running the constitutional government that allowed free speech and enforced these "Nephite laws?" Are you suggesting that because the Nephite leaders (at that time) were Christians they thought they had the right to violate their own laws by forcing unbelievers to practice a faith they didn't believe in, thereby violating freedom of conscience? The people of Ammon lived under the Nephite laws that held freedom of conscience sacred. The people of Ammon were not autonomous. Edited December 29, 2014 by teddyaware
Vance Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Romans 3:10 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:The question is where is it written and what is the context. Clue, the context is not what you are attempting to make it. Plus, you are neglecting the words of Jesus (and thus giving the easily misunderstood words of Paul preeminence over them.Matt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. If there are no righteous then why did Luke say that? 1
Jim Stiles Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 The question is where is it written and what is the context. Clue, the context is not what you are attempting to make it. Plus, you are neglecting the words of Jesus (and thus giving the easily misunderstood words of Paul preeminence over them. Matt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Matt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? If there are no righteous then why did Christ say that? Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. If there are no righteous then why did Luke say that? The Bible only calls those whose sins are forgiven righteous. That have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, which is in direct contrast to the righteousness of Spencer W. Kimball.
ERayR Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 The Bible only calls those whose sins are forgiven righteous. That have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, which is in direct contrast to the righteousness of Spencer W. Kimball. There you go with the darts you accused me of throwing. 1
Jim Stiles Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 So, post-biblical man-made doctrine for you then. Not surprising. Bill Mckeever rarely gets anything right. The fact that you are using MRM (a totally uncredible source) as your source makes your complaints uncredible. What you called post-biblical man-made doctrines are backed up by scripture, which is more than can be said about the unique doctrines taught by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. You have presented zero evidence that Bill McKeever is in error about the Miracle of Forgiveness.
Vance Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 The Bible only calls those whose sins are forgiven righteous. That have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, This verse alone totally destroys that argument. Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. which is in direct contrast to the righteousness of Spencer W. Kimball.The problem is that you don't know why or how righteousness is imputed to anyone. Therefore you can't make that kind of judgement. 1
Vance Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) What you called post-biblical man-made doctrines are backed up by scripture,Nah, erroneous interpretations of scripture are not "backup".which is more than can be said about the unique doctrines taught by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.They got their doctrines from the same source that Paul got his. You have presented zero evidence that Bill McKeever is in error about the Miracle of Forgiveness.McKeever rarely if ever gets anything Mormon correct. Comparing non doctrinal statements from the Miracle of Forgiveness to his erroneous interpretations of scripture don't count for a hill of beans. Edited December 30, 2014 by Vance 3
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 It does not teach about man's ability to keep the commandments so much as about the Lord preparing a way for us to do so. This involves the principles of grace and the atonement. For example, it is a commandment that we pay the penalty for our sins, and Christ prepared the way for us to do so, through Him. He also strengthens us against temptation and beyond our natural capacity. But just because He has prepared a way, it does not mean we always choose to take it.1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. If God prepares a way that you can accomplish what God commanded, is there a commandment that you cannot keep?
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 "Do you obey the LDS gospel?" When are you going to answer questions asked of you?I assume that you are asking me this question. I don't obey the LDS gospel because I am not LDS. The LDS gospel is completely different than the gospel that Christians believe in.
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 You are suggesting that it is impossible? Vance brought up this bible passage: Please explain yourself. Edit to add a few more (mostly from the ESV for copy and paste reasons): Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through him who strengthens me.Mark 9:23 - And Jesus said to him, “‘If thou cans't believe, all things are possible to him that believeth”Matthew 17:20 - He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”Isaiah 41:10 - Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.None of the verses above are speaking about the ability to obey all of the commandments and there are multiple verses that clearly state that we ALL sin--which by definition means that we all are unable to keep the commandments. I take it by your post that you believe that you have the ability to keep all of the commandments. Is that your position?
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 There are not any commandments that we cannot keep. . .Moroni 10:32 Yea, acome unto Christ, and be bperfected in him, and cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and dlove God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be eperfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. What would your life look like IF you deny yourself of ALL ungodliness? According to the verse above what must you do in order for grace to apply?
Bobbieaware Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 I assume that you are asking me this question. I don't obey the LDS gospel because I am not LDS. The LDS gospel is completely different than the gospel that Christians believe in.Out of common human decency and respect for my fellow human beings, I couldn't imagine myself going over to a non-LDS Christian discussion board and treating other honestly devout people with the contempt and disrespect you display here. Do you believe the leader of your congregation would approve of the arrogant attitude and comportment (as demonstrated with the above) you continue to display on this discussion board? If you are genuinely attempting to win souls for Christ, you need to know the disrespect and unkindness you are demonstrating here is undermining and totally sabotaging your efforts.
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Moroni 10:32 Yea, acome unto Christ, and be bperfected in him, and cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and dlove God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be eperfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. What would your life look like IF you deny yourself of ALL ungodliness? According to the verse above what must you do in order for grace to apply?I would be Christlike. I must strive to obey the commandments and when I fall short, I repent.
Canadaigua Posted January 2, 2015 Author Posted January 2, 2015 I would be Christlike.I must strive to obey the commandments and when I fall short, I repent.If you sin then you are not Christlike.
Flyonthewall Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 If you sin then you are not Christlike.You asked: "What would your life look like IF you deny yourself of ALL ungodliness?". My answer still stands. Then you asked: "According to the verse above what must you do in order for grace to apply?". My answer still stands.
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