15 Ways To Help People In A Difficult Faith Transition Over Historical And Doctrinal Issues

[DBMormon]

This is taken from my most recent Podcast episode (http://mormondiscussionPodcast.org)

Are these points valid?  why or why not.  Which ones do you like, and which do you not agree with or think would be helpful? 

 

1) EVERY LEADER SHOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH NEW GOSPEL TOPICS ARTICLES AND CHURCH WEBSITES SUCH AS MORMONANDGAYS.ORG
All should be aware of the dynamic changes the Church has made in its approach to its own history along with many of its policies. How the Church views is past approaches to those who are gay, the Book of Abraham and how it came to be, how the Book of Mormon was Translated, past Doctrines on why blacks could not have priesthood….. all have been revisited and revised in the past few years. Old viewpoints and stances in many cases are incorrect, outdated and offensive. The only way to implement new approaches is to be aware of them.

 

2.) RECOGNIZE THE INHERENT FLEXIBILITY THAT IS IN THE GOSPEL
Many in the Church see the gospel in a black and white way. For them it is easy to define the lines that are set. In reality many Doctrines are more nuanced than that. The 10% of what that tithing is paid on is up to the member (gross, net, surplus). Whether one believes in Evolution or what age the Earth is up to the member. How figurative or allegorical one believes many of the bible stories to be is up to the member (ex: the creation and the Garden), Was the flood local or Global, was there humans before Adam and Eve – are much more complex issues than many at first thought had assumed.

 

3.) ALLOW “FAITH, HOPE AND BELIEF” TO HAVE AS MUCH ROOM AS “KNOWING”
We have culturally created an environment where the only acceptable testimony is to “Know”. We have taught that an appropriate testimony uses the words “I Know”. But this is incorrect by modern Church teachings. Elder Holland stated recently in his talk “Lord I believe” that “I hugged that boy until his eyes bulged out. I told him with all the fervor of my soul that belief is a precious word, an even more precious act, and he need never apologize for “only believing.” While in the Church we emphasize Moroni 10:3-5 and James 1:5 which speak of pure knowledge coming from God, we also must validate Alma 32 which says that for some their testimonies are based more on the fruit of principles and less on historical facts. We also have D&C 46:13-14 which says that the gift of faith varies from person to person and how one’s faith operates varies based on how God distributes his gift. D&C 109:7 and 88:117 also declare that “not all have faith” and yet is talking about those who are worthily part of the fold and participate fully in the gospel.

 

4.) MAKE AN EFFORT TO HELP WARDS GET RID OF FOLK DOCTRINE AND SPECULATION
Many members learned a very rigid Mormonism that had answers for every question when in reality they are incorrect. Many of these “Folk Doctrines” are still alive today and unfortunately create barriers to faith when new truth is discovered. Some of these include (The Doctrine is that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that Evolution must absolutely be false, That Christ was absolutely born on April 6th, that there was absolutely no death before a literal fall in a literal Garden upon the entire earth, that Soda Pop is against the letter of the Law of the Word of Wisdom, that blacks couldn’t have Priesthood prior to 1978 because they were less valiant or that they had the mark of Cain, being Gay is a choice, and that interracial marriage is sin.
Unfortunately many of these were even taught by leaders at one time or another but each is nowhere to be found in the official Doctrine of the Church and as Elder Uchtdorf said in his talk “Come Join With us” that “And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. “ So we will have to get comfortable with our leaders making mistakes and recognize that we will need to let some of those mistakes go.

 

5.) PUT SOMEONE OUT FRONT WHO DOUBTERS CAN TRUST AND WILL OPENLY TALK TO
Many of those who lose faith are experiencing an anguish similar to losing a loved one to death. There is loss, anger, sadness, angst, depression, worry about the future, etc…. They are afraid to talk to their leaders and their family. This fear is twofold – one: we have culturally placed a negative stigma on doubt. Doubters are seen as “less than” the other members who “know” and that will result in inappropriate judgment and ridicule or diminishing of one’s questions and concerns. Two: they worry that if they express their doubts they may hurt the testimony of those they talk to. For this reason, most remain silent (studies have been done and this can be validated) In order to open up they need someone out front who empathizes, understands, and who can bear their burden with them while also offering a path back. This is in my mind crucial.

 

6.) DON’T TEACH OR ENCOURAGE BLIND OBEDIENCE
We often teach a “follow the Brethren even if they are wrong” mentality and even add at times “you will be blessed for it”. While this issue is complex and there are times when it is best to follow a leader even when you disagree, I would be very careful of such. There are simply too many instances of exceptions to this that to insist on this as an absolute simply misses the mark.
Rather we should encourage something similar to what Elder Uchtdorf taught in his CES fireside “What is Truth” when he said – “Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth. Brigham Young said: “I am … afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security. … Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates.”

 

7.) DISTINGUISH AND HELP MEMBERS DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CULTURE AND DOCTRINE.
Again this is a complex issue. Most members assume all Church teachings are “true” Doctrine. This can be historically shown to be a false assumption. In fact two Leaders have addressed this directly.
Elder Christofferson stated in his talk “The Doctrine of Christ” that “At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”
Elder Anderson then followed this up with more clarification in the next General Conference with a quote from the talk “trial of your faith” when he said “A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find. “ —– AKA – when in doubt, we should stick to basics

 

8.) HELP MEMBERS UNDERSTAND THAT LEADERS ARE FALLIBLE AND HAVE MADE MISTAKES THEREBY CREATING A REALISTIC EXPECTATION THAT WON’T SET THEM UP FOR A LETDOWN
Taking the quotes above about what is Doctrine and the one earlier where Elder Uchtdorf acknowledges mistakes into consideration, we ought teach members a realistic expectation of apostles and prophets. That while they have been called to a holy office and calling, they are imperfect mortal men, and that while they are a source for truth, it is God through the Holy Ghost who is the ultimate source. (For by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things Moroni 10:5) By teaching this you teach a realistic expectation that can be lived up to.

 

9.) DO NOT ASSUME THAT THE INFORMATION THE DOUBTER HAS LEARNED HAS COME FROM ANTI-MORMON SOURCES
When one is confronted by a member who has discovered difficulties in Church history and theology – the first response is to assume they have read such from Anti-Mormon sources. The second assumption is to assume that the information are simply lies. While some material out there is intentionally false and deceptive, Most information that causes questions is to some extent true and found directly in LDS sources such as Brigham Young’s “Journal of Discourses”, Elder McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”, and in other valid sources. While the questions another brings up may be new to you or may seem preposterous based on your current understanding, you should be prepared for new information that is true, that doesn’t fit your current understanding. Elder Uchtdorf spoke of this when he said in the “What is Truth” Fireside – “We too often confuse belief with truth, thinking that because something makes sense or is convenient, it must be true. Conversely, we sometimes don’t believe truth or reject it—because it would require us to change or admit that we were wrong. Often, truth is rejected because it doesn’t appear to be consistent with previous experiences.
When the opinions or “truths” of others contradict our own, instead of considering the possibility that there could be information that might be helpful and augment or complement what we know, we often jump to conclusions or make assumptions that the other person is misinformed, mentally challenged, or even intentionally trying to deceive.”

 

10.) DO NOT ACCUSE THE DOUBTER OF SINNING OR THAT HIS PROBLEMS WOULD BE FIXED BY PRAYING MORE OR READING MORE SCRIPTURES. DO NOT ACCUSE THOSE WHO LOSE FAITH AND LEAVE OR WHO ARE THINKING OF LEAVING OF BEING TARES AMONGST THE WHEAT OR LESS THAN IN ANY WAY. WHILE ON SOME RARE OCCASSIONS SOME OF THESE ASSUMPTIONS MAY BE TRUE, THEY ARE THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. INSTEAD MAKE ROOM FOR THE DOUBTER TO BELONG AND FEEL INCLUDED.
Elder Uchtdorf said it best in his talk “Come Join With Us” when he stated
“One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave? Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church. In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.”
He then followed up with a Christlike invitation when he stated “To those who have separated themselves from the Church, I say, my dear friends, there is yet a place for you here. Come and add your talents, gifts, and energies to ours. We will all become better as a result. Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?” It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true. “ “Regardless of your circumstances, your personal history, or the strength of your testimony, there is room for you in this Church. Come, join with us!”
Lastly a quote from Joseph F Smith – “”Members of the Mormon church are not all united on every principle. Every man is entitled to his own opinion and his own views and his own conceptions of right and wrong so long as they do not come in conflict with the standard principles of the Church. If a man assumes to deny God and to become an infidel we withdraw fellowship from him. But so long as a man believes in God and has a little faith in the Church organization, we nurture and aid that person to continue faithfully as a member of the Church though he may not believe all that is revealed.”

 

11.) ENCOURAGE TRUTH SEEKING, ENCOURAGE QUESTIONS… EVEN TOUGH ONES, VALIDATE CONCERNS RATHER THAN MINIMIZING
Again I will simply share quotes from Church Leaders

What we should encourage -
“Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth.” – Elder Uchtdorf

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” – Brigham Young

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted. – Joseph Fielding Smith

 

12.) TEACH MEMBERS NOT TO EXPECT THE CHURCH TO TEACH ALL CHURCH HISTORY AND INFORMATION. WE SHOULD EACH BE EXPECTED TO LEARN BEYOND THE THREE HOUR BLOCK AND DISCOVER TRUTH OUTSIDE OF CHURCH.
If members believe that the Church will teach them all the available history and theology within the Church, they will be set up for a letdown. There is much of our history that is not covered in a Church setting (ex: polygamy). Many members feel deceived when they discover they have gone decades without knowing some of the undiscussed facts of our history. This feeling of deception causes a loss of trust and becomes a quick slope to a loss of faith. We need to help members see that Church is in place to serve a certain purpose and that while all things are not discussed or covered, that each member is welcome to learn outside of the Church’s setting and materials.

13.) HELP LEADERS RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE WHO ENCOUNTER MAJOR DOUBTS CAN’T GO BACK TO THEIR OLD WAY OF PUTTING THE PIECES TOGETHER. RATHER THEY MUST MOVE FORWARD AND REBUILD THEIR FAITH IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
Once one has been opened up to the complexity and nuance of our faith’s history, theology, and Doctrine one can never go back to the way things were. Rather they have to be permitted to take their faith apart and put it back together in a way that works. It will look different, it will seem strange to others, and yet it will be real to them. If others try to force them back to an old paradigm, they will feel as though there is little or no place left for them within our faith and they will likely leave. It will be uncomfortable for others to accept this person’s new faith, but if we want any hope of helping them, then we need to step outside our comfort zone.

 

14.) FOCUS ON EMPATHY AND NOT HAVING AN ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION. WE MUST MOVE BEYOND THINKING MORMONISM ANSWERS AL THE QUESTIONS.
Elder Marlin Jensen (former seventy and former Church historian) said when speaking about high number of members losing faith in our day and how we need to interact with them – “when someone comes with a bit of a prickly question, he’ll be met with a bishop who number one, doesn’t know the answer. Number two, he snaps and says, ‘Get in line and don’t question the prophet, and get back and do your home teaching.’ And that isn’t helpful in most cases. So, we need to educate our leaders better, I think, to be sympathetic and empathetic and to draw out of these people where they are coming from and what’s brought them to the point they are at. What they have read, what they are thinking is, and try to understand them. Sometimes that alone is enough to help someone through a hard time. But beyond that, I think we really need to figure out a way to live a little bit with people who may never get completely settled.”

15.) FAMILY AND WARD DYNAMICS – FRIENDS, CHURCH MEMBERS, AND FAMILY SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS RATHER THAN SHUN OR WITHDRAW. NO ONE SHOULD DIVORCE OVER THIS ISSUE.
Encourage members to continue to love and support their spouses and family members who lose faith. One who holds hope should be encouraged to participate fully. As Elder Uchtdorf said, even those that have doubts should “Come Join with us” I think there are enough couples in every ward and stake going through this that it may merit at least a brief statement in a stake conference. Couples should be encouraged to stick together if one spouse goes through a faith transition (as long as there are not other deeper issues as well). Perhaps a sister in the stake could give a talk about how she was able to help her marriage thrive despite the fact that her spouse left the church. I think this would go a long way.

Many feel they must choose between their Church and their unbelieving spouse when one spouse stops believing– This should never be the case.
1st Corinthians 7:12 –15 hits on this issue.
12 If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

The episode is found at http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/09/15-ways-to-help/
 

Edited September 8, 2014 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

Excellent list!! I've struggled with nearly every one of them. So yes we or many need a list like this at the ward level. But the church might be in danger of losing the members if they are so transparent and not all or nothing, or black & white.

The leaders are going very slow in letting out the controversial topics. And from reading stories of people with FC, there doesn't seem to be much room for doubters.

President Uchtdorf's "doubt your doubt" is pretty prevelant thinking.

[rpn]

2.) RECOGNIZE THE INHERENT FLEXIBILITY THAT IS IN THE GOSPEL

Many in the Church see the gospel in a black and white way. For them it is easy to define the lines that are set. In reality many Doctrines are more nuanced than that. The 10% of what that tithing is paid on is up to the member (gross, net, surplus). Whether one believes in Evolution or what age the Earth is up to the member. How figurative or allegorical one believes many of the bible stories to be is up to the member (ex: the creation and the Garden), Was the flood local or Global, was there humans before Adam and Eve – are much more complex issues than many at first thought had assumed.

 

I do not think there is the flexibility in tithing that you describe.     And using the term "flexibility in the gospel" mischaractorizes what is going on.   Yes, we should teach that our way of living  the gospel may not be the ONLY faithful way to do so.  

 

Yes, we teach that God hasn't told us many whys of various things He wants us to do.   Maybe that is because the "why" is different for different people or in different circumstances.  Maybe because there is some value in trying to follow His guidance  when we don't know the why, thereby training that very natural human response to seek the 'why".  

 

Yes, we should teach that a member's duty is to learn the gospel and follow personal revelation as to how to apply that in their own lives.    Yes, most of us apply the gospel differently as we learn more and as we change our hearts to become more Christlike.  

 

Yes we teach that none of the tradition or culture is obligatory: members are free to adopt or reject all of that (though there can be tremendous value in retaining various aspects of tradition and culture, of course).

 

But the flexibility is only in how we come to truth and when, not that there are many truths and it doesn't matter which is follow.    There is varied culture and tradition.    But we ultimately come to the same, whole truth.

 

Many feel they must choose between their Church and their unbelieving spouse when one spouse stops believing– This should never be the case.

In every ward there should be one or more lessons on a Christian's duty to those who act differently than we think they ought to act.   It should cover bullying in Scouts and YW, and on building homes with parenting that is authoritative, not authoritarian.   Parents need to hear the research that the children who follow their parental religious beliefs grew up in homes where they were loved and accepted for who they are.  And that force, coercion, trashtalking (on a personal or political level) people considered "the others" is antithetical to our faith.   And finally, that families with differing belief systems may have unique difficulties but that reason alone doesn't have to break a marriage.  

 

Bishops should be guided to explicitly say to a member whose spouse is doubting that divorce isn't required or necessary or even desirable just because of that alone.  Choosing to divorce with the intent to find a "more faithful" spouse may show a lack of understanding of the significance of having made those marriage covenants with God.

 

However, having followed forums for years intended to help those with mixed belief,  I think that what the person who has changed belief thinks is divorce because I changed belief, is just as likely to really be "changed belief so that they became contemptuous of the partner who didn't change beliefs, so that the church member felt they couldn't live in the negative environment". 

 

(Bishops should also explicitly tell parents of teenagers that it is contradictory to gospel principles to treat people badly because they are attracted to their own sex or are transgendered, because they don't go on a mission or take some other traditional gospel step when others do, because they no longer believe.   That parents should NOT condition their financial support on a child's commitment to go on a mission or get married in the temple ---- not just because it is wrong, but also because it may leave a child feeling coerced into gospel things that must be freely entered into to have any positive effect on them.    And that the TR question about associating with those not in harmony do not require that they kick a child out of the house because they agree with Ordain Women or even when they picket GC (though they may refuse to let such child use their computer to conduct or provide support for such things, or march in the Gay Pride Parade or get tattoos or a nose ring).

 

Perhaps it would be more important to speak about the process for discerning truth and the human limitations on recognizing truth that is different from our expectations (including that we tend to remember things and see things that reinforce what we already believe, even when what we believe is incorrect).

 

 

WE MUST MOVE BEYOND THINKING MORMONISM ANSWERS AL THE QUESTIONS.

The gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all truth.   So I don't think the above is true or helpful.    What would be helpful is to acknowledge that as individuals and institution, we do not yet know all truth.   And therefore it is not uncommon for individuals or the church to not have ready pat answers for every heartbreak and concern and dilemma that appears.    But God does, and in His time with  our personal diligence in seeking it and living worthy to hear the promptings of the Holy Ghost, He has promised  to reveal all. 

 

_________________

 

I have other concerns but have run out of time to address them. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by rpn

[The Nehor]

16.) Burn the heretic as a witch. Serve funeral potatoes as refreshments.

 

You left one out.

[DBMormon]

The gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all truth.   So I don't think the above is true or helpful.   

 

_________________

 

So Mormonism answers all questions or doesn't it.  Please pick one.

[Rivers]

I would recommend the Givens' new book The Crucible of Doubt. A short but excellent read. I highly recommend it to any one who is struggling.

http://deseretbook.com/Crucible-Doubt-Terryl-L-Givens/i/5125923

Edited September 8, 2014 by Rivers

[Glenn101]

So Mormonism answers all questions or doesn't it.  Please pick one.

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not answer all questions. It does answer all of the questions that are pertinent to our salvation and exaltation, i.e. what we need to do to attain. It answers all of the ones that we need to know, but not necessarily all of the questions that we may want answers to.

 

Glenn

Edited September 8, 2014 by Glenn101

[Calm]

http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/09/01/mormon-faircast-book-review-the-crucible-of-doubt-reflections-on-the-quest-for-faith-by-terryl-and-fiona-givens/

[DBMormon]

I would recommend the Givens' new book The Crucible of Doubt. A short but excellent read. I highly recommend it to any one who is struggling.

http://deseretbook.com/Crucible-Doubt-Terryl-L-Givens/i/5125923

I listened to it ( bought it as a mp3 file)and while I liked it a little, I expected more meat to it.  It was too philophical I believe for some in early faith crisis where it is hardest.  While some are touched and helped by all the poems and literary references.  For me it is a little empty, as if your skirting the issues a little

Edited September 8, 2014 by DBMormon

[Buzzard]

#'s 4 and 7 are often two sides of the same coin. For every member spouting faith promoting rumors, there are a few that roll their eyes.

BTW, I have yet to run into an active MP holder who thought that the  earth was only 6,000 years old. I do see a wide diversity of opinions on evolution, from embracing it (my father), to dismissing it. (BYU Book of Mormon professor). I come down somewhere in the middle, since "years" is a construct of our linear, mortal existence, and not the way a timeless God works. 

[Mystery Meat]

13.) HELP LEADERS RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE WHO ENCOUNTER MAJOR DOUBTS CAN’T GO BACK TO THEIR OLD WAY OF PUTTING THE PIECES TOGETHER. RATHER THEY MUST MOVE FORWARD AND REBUILD THEIR FAITH IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

Once one has been opened up to the complexity and nuance of our faith’s history, theology, and Doctrine one can never go back to the way things were. Rather they have to be permitted to take their faith apart and put it back together in a way that works. It will look different, it will seem strange to others, and yet it will be real to them. If others try to force them back to an old paradigm, they will feel as though there is little or no place left for them within our faith and they will likely leave. It will be uncomfortable for others to accept this person’s new faith, but if we want any hope of helping them, then we need to step outside our comfort zone.

 

 

No offense to you DB, but I think you have a habit of applying YOUR situation and what YOU can and can't do to everyone else. I went through a faith crisis. I have problems with many of your points but especially 13. I did go back to my "old way" as you call it. My faith is just like it was before. It is possible. Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean it is impossible or that others can't.

[Calm]

"studies have been done and this can be validated"

What studies please?

[DBMormon]

No offense to you DB, but I think you have a habit of applying YOUR situation and what YOU can and can't do to everyone else. I went through a faith crisis. I have problems with many of your points but especially 13. I did go back to my "old way" as you call it. My faith is just like it was before. It is possible. Just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean it is impossible or that others can't.

Intriguing.  Actually it is John Lynch from Fair that I stole this point from.   John helped me and others see that our mindset has to adapt and change.  In otherwords I can simply force the facts to change to fit my old perceptions but rather mind paradigm has to change to fit the facts.

 

Also this list is currently being used in at least two stakes in the Church.  I know one of them (stake presidency, high council, and Bishops) are using this list to better provide a atmosphere where those who doubt can both feel support as well as make their way back.  I also posted this on reddit (latterDay Saint ) site and outside of a few, most found the list very helpful.  already have gotten several messages by facebook or email saying they appreciated the podcast episode and felt the list was a good synopsis.

 

So while I am glad you made it back, I also think my perspective represents a good sized chunck of people struggling with doubt in Mormonism at the moment.  Is it a reflection of my story?.... yep, but it also theirs. 

[stemelbow]

focus down into points 11 and 14 and everything else will be achieved, I think.

[rpn]

 

I also think my perspective represents a good sized chunck of people struggling with doubt in Mormonism at the moment.  Is it a reflection of my story?.... yep, but it also theirs.

Or others for whom it doesn't ring true aren't following those other places you posted the list, or are too busy to respond.

 

And I said that the Gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all Truth.    That is not the same thing as saying that Mormonism answers every question for everyone today.  We know that some will tell you it has not answered their questions.   My answer acknowledges that we all don't know all truth yet, but it still stands that the Gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all TRUTH today.    (And I think it incorporates the Gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all secular as well as all spiritual truth.)

Edited September 8, 2014 by rpn

[Mystery Meat]

Intriguing.  Actually it is John Lynch from Fair that I stole this point from.   John helped me and others see that our mindset has to adapt and change.  In otherwords I can simply force the facts to change to fit my old perceptions but rather mind paradigm has to change to fit the facts.

 

Also this list is currently being used in at least two stakes in the Church.  I know one of them (stake presidency, high council, and Bishops) are using this list to better provide a atmosphere where those who doubt can both feel support as well as make their way back.  I also posted this on reddit (latterDay Saint ) site and outside of a few, most found the list very helpful.  already have gotten several messages by facebook or email saying they appreciated the podcast episode and felt the list was a good synopsis.

 

So while I am glad you made it back, I also think my perspective represents a good sized chunck of people struggling with doubt in Mormonism at the moment.  Is it a reflection of my story?.... yep, but it also theirs. 

 

I don't think I had to change any facts. In fact, whenever I have studied difficult issues, my first step is to assume the claims, no matter how wild, are true and see if any of them would disrupt my faith. I have yet to reach the second step.

[The Nehor]

So Mormonism answers all questions or doesn't it.  Please pick one.

 

It does. However none of us have reached the graduate level courses that encompass all knowledge.

[Rodeo]

Not sure I agree with how you put forth "folk doctrine". The church does actually teach that there was no death before the fall. The church also teaches that man is not the end result of evolution.

Being gay for some is not a choice. However, for most it is a choice just as it is also a choice by most to find pornography addictive. The problem with the situation is that because parents are slack and because morals in communities are slack we have an ever growing trend to be immoral and do immoral things. The church has never changed its stance on any of these issues. Acting out in homosexuality 50 years ago is still the same sin today. The church has only came out to clarify that same gender attraction is not a sin. Its only acting upon that it becomes a sin. No new doctrine has come out regarding this issue. You make it sound as if the church is in transition to allow gay people to cohabit without sin and perhaps even get married and live without sin. That is not the case!

[DBMormon]

Not sure I agree with how you put forth "folk doctrine". The church does actually teach that there was no death before the fall. The church also teaches that man is not the end result of evolution.

Being gay for some is not a choice. However, for most it is a choice just as it is also a choice by most to find pornography addictive. The problem with the situation is that because parents are slack and because morals in communities are slack we have an ever growing trend to be immoral and do immoral things. The church has never changed its stance on any of these issues. Acting out in homosexuality 50 years ago is still the same sin today. The church has only came out to clarify that same gender attraction is not a sin. Its only acting upon that it becomes a sin. No new doctrine has come out regarding this issue. You make it sound as if the church is in transition to allow gay people to cohabit without sin and perhaps even get married and live without sin. That is not the case!

For most, being gay is a choice?  huh.  Thanks as this is very informative.

[Rodeo]

For most, being gay is a choice?  huh.  Thanks as this is very informative.

Yes sir. I know quite a few gay people and know that they are gay because they choose that lifestyle. Many people experiment in their youth when hormones run crazy and end up doing immoral things that they become addicted to and cant give up. The great lie Satan has told people is that they are born that way and there is nothing wrong with them.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Rodeo

[Rock_N_Roll]

Yes sir. I know quite a few gay people and know that they are gay because they choose that lifestyle. Many people experiment in their youth when hormones run crazy and end up doing immoral things that they become addicted to and cant give up. 

 

How do you know that "they are gay because they choose that lifestyle"?  Did they tell you they chose to be gay? At what point did YOU choose NOT to be gay?  I know quite a few gay people as well, and I have come to the complete opposite view. 

[rpn]

The current official church position is that we do not know how same sex attraction occurs.  

 

I wonder if Rodeo refers to it being a choice whether to embrace a gay lifestyle and/or sex outside marriage between a man and a woman, or to live the commandments even when it is hard to do so.  

[Paddy]

The institutional church does not have the toolset or the cultural inclination to properly transition people through their faith. It teaches a correlated envelope of teachings and practices that by conforming to them renders a person in good standing. This is not necessarily a negative criticism. It just is what it is.

To a large degree you have other institutions that have endeavoured to fill the gap for those so inclined, for example, BYU studies, maxwel institute, Fairmormon, etc. each offers a range of materials and support services for those transitioning/crisis.

Your points 1-8 will never happen, and cannot really happen in the institutional church. Some people are just not inclined to move past their current faith/knowledge/practice level and by forcing these things on leaders and members does them a disservice IMO.

The church needs to utilise other services to help people and allow those who are good at it to assist people. The main problem being is understanding how to help people. There has been different attempts at this by Fairmormon, mormonstories, and yourself. Each tackling the symptom and offering remedies by not tackling the root cause which is that we over correlate (lack of gospel nuance and no where to get it) and under convert (manufacture spirit experience through sentimentality and emotion rather than practicing faith). I mean these at an institutional level not an individual level.

Your points 6-15 start to look good by are again tied to the institutional church. If there is a way to disconnect it from the strictures of the church and place it back into the hands of those people who have a natural ministry for it then I think it is on the right track.

The goal of helping people with faith crisis, I think, should always be to increase/transition their faith to something stronger not abandon it. Which is why I prefer your approach and Fairmormon rather than some others.

FWIW

Edited September 8, 2014 by Paddy

[mfbukowski]

Leaders are not going to some website for answers- trust me.

 

That is your biggest problem.  Your biggest market doesn't want your product because they don't trust you.

 

Sorry- that is brutally honest, but it is also brutally true.  They also don't have time to go on the internet to solve these problems and figure out which sites are "good" or "bad", or go to some apologist like you or me to answer a problem in their ward.

 

If it's not a phone number in a manual like the legal hotline, or on lds.org, it's not going to matter to them.

Edited September 8, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Rodeo]

How do you know that "they are gay because they choose that lifestyle"?  Did they tell you they chose to be gay? At what point did YOU choose NOT to be gay?  I know quite a few gay people as well, and I have come to the complete opposite view.

Sexual orientation/ and,or/ sexual lifestyles are largely a choice. It comes in all forms but from what I have noticed is that what people end up with is because of their choice. Our carnal natures will allow us to pretty much chase after anything that provides a sexual release. In some countries its very acceptable for men to be with men and because of its acceptance a lot of men do it because they choose that to fill their physical sexual release. Some people just watch porn. Some cheat on their spouse. Some have multiple partners. Some are swingers. Some are bisexuals. It pretty much all comes down to fantasies and fulfilling that sexual appetite. Studies have shown with gay people that they are overwhelmingly more prone to have multiple sex partners, shorter relationships, etc. Its a plague in society- this gay lifestyle. And, its also an abomination.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Rodeo