15 Ways To Help People In A Difficult Faith Transition Over Historical And Doctrinal Issues

[bcuzbcuz]

Sexual orientation/ and,or/ sexual lifestyles are largely a choice. It comes in all forms but from what I have noticed is that what people end up with is because of their choice. Our carnal natures will allow us to pretty much chase after anything that provides a sexual release. In some countries its very acceptable for men to be with men and because of its acceptance a lot of men do it because they choose that to fill their physical sexual release. Some people just watch porn. Some cheat on their spouse. Some have multiple partners. Some are swingers. Some are bisexuals. It pretty much all comes down to fantasies and fulfilling that sexual appetite. Studies have shown with gay people that they are overwhelmingly more prone to have multiple sex partners, shorter relationships, etc. Its a plague in society- this gay lifestyle. And, its also an abomination.

Sorry, but you list a multitude of behaviours as choices, such as cheating on a spouse, or watching porn, which I will agree, all are choices.

I do not agree, however, with you grouping homosexuality as a "choice". Did you choose heterosexuality? You'll have to answer that one for yourself. But for me and everyone in my family, and everyone I've worked with for many, many years,, heterosexuality hasn't been a "choice". It is what I know and how I've lived, since I first felt attraction for the girl who lived three houses down the street from my house. It has displayed itself throughout my life, from first having a crush on Annette Funicello, from the Mickey Mouse Club (yes, I'm that old), to my choices (married twice) of life partners, both equally heterosexual.

And strangely enough, despite me being unabashedly heterosexual, I've felt no compunction to watch porn, cheat on my spouse, have multiple partners, swing, or be bisexual. Your mileage may vary.

"It pretty much all comes down to fantasies and fulfilling that sexual appetite." I think that comment sets the common denominator pretty low.

[JLHPROF]

This is taken from my most recent Podcast episode (http://mormondiscussionPodcast.org)

Are these points valid?  why or why not.  Which ones do you like, and which do you not agree with or think would be helpful? 

 

1) EVERY LEADER SHOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH NEW GOSPEL TOPICS ARTICLES AND CHURCH WEBSITES SUCH AS MORMONANDGAYS.ORG

All should be aware of the dynamic changes the Church has made in its approach to its own history along with many of its policies. How the Church views is past approaches to those who are gay, the Book of Abraham and how it came to be, how the Book of Mormon was Translated, past Doctrines on why blacks could not have priesthood….. all have been revisited and revised in the past few years. Old viewpoints and stances in many cases are incorrect, outdated and offensive. The only way to implement new approaches is to be aware of them.

 

AGREED THAT LEADERS SHOULD ALL BE AWARE OF CURRENT CHURCH POSITION AND TEACHINGS.  HOWEVER, THEY DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT OR EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE EVERY "NEW" VIEWPOINT OUT THERE.

 

2.) RECOGNIZE THE INHERENT FLEXIBILITY THAT IS IN THE GOSPEL

Many in the Church see the gospel in a black and white way. For them it is easy to define the lines that are set. In reality many Doctrines are more nuanced than that. The 10% of what that tithing is paid on is up to the member (gross, net, surplus). Whether one believes in Evolution or what age the Earth is up to the member. How figurative or allegorical one believes many of the bible stories to be is up to the member (ex: the creation and the Garden), Was the flood local or Global, was there humans before Adam and Eve – are much more complex issues than many at first thought had assumed.

 

AGREED THAT THE GOSPEL IS MORE FLEXIBLE THAN IS GENERALLY RECOGNIZED BUT COMPLETELY DISAGREE THAT THIS MEANS THE CHURCH HAS TO ACCEPT TEACHINGS THAT GO AGAINST ITS DOCTRINE.  IF THE CHURCH TEACHES THAT THE SCRIPTURAL FLOOD WAS REAL AND  WORLDWIDE (AND THAT'S DEBATABLE) THEN IT DOES NOT HAVE TO ALSO ACCEPT THE CONTRARY BELIEF.  IF THE CHURCH TEACHES THAT THE GARDEN STORY WITH ADAM AND EVE REALLY HAPPENED IT HAS NO OBLIGATION AT ALL TO BE FLEXIBLE IN THIS.

 

3.) ALLOW “FAITH, HOPE AND BELIEF” TO HAVE AS MUCH ROOM AS “KNOWING”

We have culturally created an environment where the only acceptable testimony is to “Know”. We have taught that an appropriate testimony uses the words “I Know”. But this is incorrect by modern Church teachings. Elder Holland stated recently in his talk “Lord I believe” that “I hugged that boy until his eyes bulged out. I told him with all the fervor of my soul that belief is a precious word, an even more precious act, and he need never apologize for “only believing.” While in the Church we emphasize Moroni 10:3-5 and James 1:5 which speak of pure knowledge coming from God, we also must validate Alma 32 which says that for some their testimonies are based more on the fruit of principles and less on historical facts. We also have D&C 46:13-14 which says that the gift of faith varies from person to person and how one’s faith operates varies based on how God distributes his gift. D&C 109:7 and 88:117 also declare that “not all have faith” and yet is talking about those who are worthily part of the fold and participate fully in the gospel.

 

AGREED, BUT WORK TOWARDS KNOWING.

 

4.) MAKE AN EFFORT TO HELP WARDS GET RID OF FOLK DOCTRINE AND SPECULATION

Many members learned a very rigid Mormonism that had answers for every question when in reality they are incorrect. Many of these “Folk Doctrines” are still alive today and unfortunately create barriers to faith when new truth is discovered. Some of these include (The Doctrine is that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that Evolution must absolutely be false, That Christ was absolutely born on April 6th, that there was absolutely no death before a literal fall in a literal Garden upon the entire earth, that Soda Pop is against the letter of the Law of the Word of Wisdom, that blacks couldn’t have Priesthood prior to 1978 because they were less valiant or that they had the mark of Cain, being Gay is a choice, and that interracial marriage is sin.

Unfortunately many of these were even taught by leaders at one time or another but each is nowhere to be found in the official Doctrine of the Church and as Elder Uchtdorf said in his talk “Come Join With us” that “And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. “ So we will have to get comfortable with our leaders making mistakes and recognize that we will need to let some of those mistakes go.

 

ONLY SLIGHTLY AGREED, BECAUSE THE DEFINITION OF FOLK DOCTRINE AND SPECULATION IS DEBATABLE.  THERE ARE THINGS THAT WOULD BE DISMISSED THAT ARE TRUE REVELATION IF SOME HAD THEIR WAY.   PERSONALLY, I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT MUCH "FOLK DOCTRINE" AS TRUE.

YOU GIVE SOME EXAMPLES TO DISMISS - THAT THE EARTH IS 6000 YEARS OLD, THAT IS BASED IN REVELATION (THAT THE EARTH HAS A MORTALITY OF 7000 YEARS)

CONVERSELY THERE ARE MANY OTHERS THAT ARE READILY ACCEPTED WITH JUST AS LITTLE EVIDENCE - THE NAME OF THE BROTHER OF JARED.

 

5.) PUT SOMEONE OUT FRONT WHO DOUBTERS CAN TRUST AND WILL OPENLY TALK TO

Many of those who lose faith are experiencing an anguish similar to losing a loved one to death. There is loss, anger, sadness, angst, depression, worry about the future, etc…. They are afraid to talk to their leaders and their family. This fear is twofold – one: we have culturally placed a negative stigma on doubt. Doubters are seen as “less than” the other members who “know” and that will result in inappropriate judgment and ridicule or diminishing of one’s questions and concerns. Two: they worry that if they express their doubts they may hurt the testimony of those they talk to. For this reason, most remain silent (studies have been done and this can be validated) In order to open up they need someone out front who empathizes, understands, and who can bear their burden with them while also offering a path back. This is in my mind crucial.

 

AGREED - LETTING PEOPLE'S DOUBTS LINGER IS LAZY SHEPHERDING, BUT ALSO ALLOWING DOUBTS TO SPREAD IS DANGEROUS.

 

6.) DON’T TEACH OR ENCOURAGE BLIND OBEDIENCE

We often teach a “follow the Brethren even if they are wrong” mentality and even add at times “you will be blessed for it”. While this issue is complex and there are times when it is best to follow a leader even when you disagree, I would be very careful of such. There are simply too many instances of exceptions to this that to insist on this as an absolute simply misses the mark.

Rather we should encourage something similar to what Elder Uchtdorf taught in his CES fireside “What is Truth” when he said – “Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth. Brigham Young said: “I am … afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security. … Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates.”

 

AGREED - WE TEACH THIS BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TOLD TO TEACH THIS, BUT I DON'T FIND IT TO BE TRUE DOCTRINE.

 

7.) DISTINGUISH AND HELP MEMBERS DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CULTURE AND DOCTRINE.

Again this is a complex issue. Most members assume all Church teachings are “true” Doctrine. This can be historically shown to be a false assumption. In fact two Leaders have addressed this directly.

Elder Christofferson stated in his talk “The Doctrine of Christ” that “At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”

Elder Anderson then followed this up with more clarification in the next General Conference with a quote from the talk “trial of your faith” when he said “A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find. “ —– AKA – when in doubt, we should stick to basics

AGAIN, WE TEACH THIS BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT IT IS TRUE.  BRIGHAM YOUNG FOR INSTANCE SAID HE NEVER PREACHED A SERMON BUT YOU COULD CALL IT SCRIPTURE.  D&C SAYS THAT WHETHER BY THE MOUTH OF GOD OR BY HIS SERVANTS IT'S THE SAME THING.  AND THERE ARE MANY OTHER REFERENCES.  I PERSONALLY CONSIDER THIS ONE OF THE FEW SELF-CONTRADICTORY DOCTRINES OF THE CHURCH.

 

8.) HELP MEMBERS UNDERSTAND THAT LEADERS ARE FALLIBLE AND HAVE MADE MISTAKES THEREBY CREATING A REALISTIC EXPECTATION THAT WON’T SET THEM UP FOR A LETDOWN

Taking the quotes above about what is Doctrine and the one earlier where Elder Uchtdorf acknowledges mistakes into consideration, we ought teach members a realistic expectation of apostles and prophets. That while they have been called to a holy office and calling, they are imperfect mortal men, and that while they are a source for truth, it is God through the Holy Ghost who is the ultimate source. (For by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things Moroni 10:5) By teaching this you teach a realistic expectation that can be lived up to.

 

AGREED - BUT IT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.  IF SOMEONE FULLY BELIEVES A MAN IS A PROPHET OF GOD AND HIS MOUTHPIECE ON THE EARTH, EVEN IF HE BELIEVES THAT THE MAN CAN MAKE A MISTAKE HE WILL STILL GIVE THE PROPHETS WORD ALMOST PERFECT CREDENCE, IT'S HUMAN NATURE.  WE DON'T FAIL TO QUESTION THE PROPHET BECAUSE WE BELIEVE HIM INFALLIBLE, BUT BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT GOD SPEAKS THROUGH HIM AND QUESTIONING THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT PLEASANT.

 

9.) DO NOT ASSUME THAT THE INFORMATION THE DOUBTER HAS LEARNED HAS COME FROM ANTI-MORMON SOURCES

When one is confronted by a member who has discovered difficulties in Church history and theology – the first response is to assume they have read such from Anti-Mormon sources. The second assumption is to assume that the information are simply lies. While some material out there is intentionally false and deceptive, Most information that causes questions is to some extent true and found directly in LDS sources such as Brigham Young’s “Journal of Discourses”, Elder McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”, and in other valid sources. While the questions another brings up may be new to you or may seem preposterous based on your current understanding, you should be prepared for new information that is true, that doesn’t fit your current understanding. Elder Uchtdorf spoke of this when he said in the “What is Truth” Fireside – “We too often confuse belief with truth, thinking that because something makes sense or is convenient, it must be true. Conversely, we sometimes don’t believe truth or reject it—because it would require us to change or admit that we were wrong. Often, truth is rejected because it doesn’t appear to be consistent with previous experiences.

When the opinions or “truths” of others contradict our own, instead of considering the possibility that there could be information that might be helpful and augment or complement what we know, we often jump to conclusions or make assumptions that the other person is misinformed, mentally challenged, or even intentionally trying to deceive.”

 

AGREED - I FIND PLENTY TO DISAGREE WITH IN THE TEACHINGS OF MCCONKIE, TALMAGE ETC  WITHOUT EVER TOUCHING ANY "ANTI-MORMON" SOURCES.

 

10.) DO NOT ACCUSE THE DOUBTER OF SINNING OR THAT HIS PROBLEMS WOULD BE FIXED BY PRAYING MORE OR READING MORE SCRIPTURES. DO NOT ACCUSE THOSE WHO LOSE FAITH AND LEAVE OR WHO ARE THINKING OF LEAVING OF BEING TARES AMONGST THE WHEAT OR LESS THAN IN ANY WAY. WHILE ON SOME RARE OCCASSIONS SOME OF THESE ASSUMPTIONS MAY BE TRUE, THEY ARE THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. INSTEAD MAKE ROOM FOR THE DOUBTER TO BELONG AND FEEL INCLUDED.

Elder Uchtdorf said it best in his talk “Come Join With Us” when he stated

“One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave? Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church. In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.”

He then followed up with a Christlike invitation when he stated “To those who have separated themselves from the Church, I say, my dear friends, there is yet a place for you here. Come and add your talents, gifts, and energies to ours. We will all become better as a result. Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?” It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true. “ “Regardless of your circumstances, your personal history, or the strength of your testimony, there is room for you in this Church. Come, join with us!”

Lastly a quote from Joseph F Smith – “”Members of the Mormon church are not all united on every principle. Every man is entitled to his own opinion and his own views and his own conceptions of right and wrong so long as they do not come in conflict with the standard principles of the Church. If a man assumes to deny God and to become an infidel we withdraw fellowship from him. But so long as a man believes in God and has a little faith in the Church organization, we nurture and aid that person to continue faithfully as a member of the Church though he may not believe all that is revealed.”

 

AGREED, BUT THERE IS A BREAKING POINT WHERE APOSTATE IDEAS CANNOT BE TOLERATED.  BUT OTHER THAN THAT, AGREED.

 

11.) ENCOURAGE TRUTH SEEKING, ENCOURAGE QUESTIONS… EVEN TOUGH ONES, VALIDATE CONCERNS RATHER THAN MINIMIZING

Again I will simply share quotes from Church Leaders

What we should encourage -

“Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth.” – Elder Uchtdorf

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” – Brigham Young

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted. – Joseph Fielding Smith

 

AGREED

 

12.) TEACH MEMBERS NOT TO EXPECT THE CHURCH TO TEACH ALL CHURCH HISTORY AND INFORMATION. WE SHOULD EACH BE EXPECTED TO LEARN BEYOND THE THREE HOUR BLOCK AND DISCOVER TRUTH OUTSIDE OF CHURCH.

If members believe that the Church will teach them all the available history and theology within the Church, they will be set up for a letdown. There is much of our history that is not covered in a Church setting (ex: polygamy). Many members feel deceived when they discover they have gone decades without knowing some of the undiscussed facts of our history. This feeling of deception causes a loss of trust and becomes a quick slope to a loss of faith. We need to help members see that Church is in place to serve a certain purpose and that while all things are not discussed or covered, that each member is welcome to learn outside of the Church’s setting and materials.

 

AGREED, AND PERHAPS PROVIDE MORE RESOURCES.

 

13.) HELP LEADERS RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE WHO ENCOUNTER MAJOR DOUBTS CAN’T GO BACK TO THEIR OLD WAY OF PUTTING THE PIECES TOGETHER. RATHER THEY MUST MOVE FORWARD AND REBUILD THEIR FAITH IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

Once one has been opened up to the complexity and nuance of our faith’s history, theology, and Doctrine one can never go back to the way things were. Rather they have to be permitted to take their faith apart and put it back together in a way that works. It will look different, it will seem strange to others, and yet it will be real to them. If others try to force them back to an old paradigm, they will feel as though there is little or no place left for them within our faith and they will likely leave. It will be uncomfortable for others to accept this person’s new faith, but if we want any hope of helping them, then we need to step outside our comfort zone.

 

AGREED, BUT DOUBTS NEED TO BE OVERCOME, NOT JUST PUT BEHIND.

 

14.) FOCUS ON EMPATHY AND NOT HAVING AN ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION. WE MUST MOVE BEYOND THINKING MORMONISM ANSWERS AL THE QUESTIONS.

Elder Marlin Jensen (former seventy and former Church historian) said when speaking about high number of members losing faith in our day and how we need to interact with them – “when someone comes with a bit of a prickly question, he’ll be met with a bishop who number one, doesn’t know the answer. Number two, he snaps and says, ‘Get in line and don’t question the prophet, and get back and do your home teaching.’ And that isn’t helpful in most cases. So, we need to educate our leaders better, I think, to be sympathetic and empathetic and to draw out of these people where they are coming from and what’s brought them to the point they are at. What they have read, what they are thinking is, and try to understand them. Sometimes that alone is enough to help someone through a hard time. But beyond that, I think we really need to figure out a way to live a little bit with people who may never get completely settled.”

 

AGREE WITH POINT ONE, DISAGREE WITH POINT TWO.  MORMONISM DOES HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS ABOUT MORMONISM AND SINCE MORMONISM EMBRACES ALL TRUTH IT SHOULD EVENTUALLY HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.  BUT THE EMPATHY PART IS RIGHT.

15.) FAMILY AND WARD DYNAMICS – FRIENDS, CHURCH MEMBERS, AND FAMILY SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS RATHER THAN SHUN OR WITHDRAW. NO ONE SHOULD DIVORCE OVER THIS ISSUE.

Encourage members to continue to love and support their spouses and family members who lose faith. One who holds hope should be encouraged to participate fully. As Elder Uchtdorf said, even those that have doubts should “Come Join with us” I think there are enough couples in every ward and stake going through this that it may merit at least a brief statement in a stake conference. Couples should be encouraged to stick together if one spouse goes through a faith transition (as long as there are not other deeper issues as well). Perhaps a sister in the stake could give a talk about how she was able to help her marriage thrive despite the fact that her spouse left the church. I think this would go a long way.

Many feel they must choose between their Church and their unbelieving spouse when one spouse stops believing– This should never be the case.

1st Corinthians 7:12 –15 hits on this issue.

12 If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

AGREED, BUT ONCE AGAIN, THERE IS A BREAKING POINT.

 

The episode is found at http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/09/15-ways-to-help/

 

[Tacenda]

Leaders are not going to some website for answers- trust me.

 

That is your biggest problem.  Your biggest market doesn't want your product because they don't trust you.

 

Sorry- that is brutally honest, but it is also brutally true.  They also don't have time to go on the internet to solve these problems and figure out which sites are "good" or "bad", or go to some apologist like you or me to answer a problem in their ward.

 

If it's not a phone number in a manual like the legal hotline, or on lds.org, it's not going to matter to them.

Sounds like DBMormon is trusted, you don't think he'd be allowed to speak at Firesides and the like if he weren't do you???  And very recently to boot!!

[mfbukowski]

Sounds like DBMormon is trusted, you don't think he'd be allowed to speak at Firesides and the like if he weren't do you???  And very recently to boot!!

I wish him the best- absolutely, and I hope it works for him.  But outside the Mormon Corridor, I don't think it is going to fly.

 

No one out here in the real world even know about this stuff.  It is not in the news papers, nor is it a topic of discussion.  No one has even heard of Kate Kelly, and if they have, it is all in the category of "Anti-Mormon-Literature" which is about on the same level as pornography if you "read that stuff", or go on the internet to find it.

 

The leaders would never go on the internet to find answers to gospel questions unless it was on a church website.

 

Hereabouts you are either mainstream or you walk away from the church- there is no "church culture", no "sixth generation Mormons" no "Mormon way of life" to keep people involved.  This is the land of fruits and nuts.  People change religions as it suits them, and it is considered "weird" to even believe in God at all, much less to distinguish between denominations and doctrinal differences.

 

Right now, I have business dealings with Persians, Arabs, East Indians, Koreans and Mexicans.  Do you think any of these folks care about Brigham Young, or have even heard of him?  This is not Mormon country and the bishops know no more than the general membership for the most part.  That is to be expected.  They did not go to "Bishop's School".  If the have a problem they go to the Stake President who knows about the same amount. 

 

Good for them!  They really don't need more.

 

In fact if any of these folks were educated in philosophy, no one would have any problems with this stuff, but I cannot get them to teach Wittgenstein in grammar school,  where it should be taught!

Edited September 9, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

I wish him the best- absolutely, and I hope it works for him.  But outside the Mormon Corridor, I don't think it is going to fly.

 

No one out here in the real world even know about this stuff.  It is not in the news papers, nor is it a topic of discussion.  No one has even heard of Kate Kelly, and if they have, it is all in the category of "Anti-Mormon-Literature" which is about on the same level as pornography if you "read that stuff", or go on the internet to find it.

 

The leaders would never go on the internet to find answers to gospel questions unless it was on a church website.

 

Hereabouts you are either mainstream or you walk away from the church- there is no "church culture", no "sixth generation Mormons" no "Mormon way of life" to keep people involved.  This is the land of fruits and nuts.  People change religions as it suits them, and it is considered "weird" to even believe in God at all.

DB lives outside the Mormon Corridor. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

 

5.) PUT SOMEONE OUT FRONT WHO DOUBTERS CAN TRUST AND WILL OPENLY TALK TO

In order to open up they need someone out front who empathizes, understands, and who can bear their burden with them while also offering a path back. This is in my mind crucial.

 

 

 

This sounds exactly like what a bishop is called an set apart to do.

[DBMormon]

Yes sir. I know quite a few gay people and know that they are gay because they choose that lifestyle. Many people experiment in their youth when hormones run crazy and end up doing immoral things that they become addicted to and cant give up. The great lie Satan has told people is that they are born that way and there is nothing wrong with them.

LDS leaders seem to think a majority do not choose such feelings

The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them

 

people here won't be comfortable with that stance.... dissent is risky.  Also your personal experience in no way proves as a large enough group to make any conclusions... just ask others here.

[cinepro]

This sounds exactly like what a bishop is called an set apart to do.

 

Sadly, it has been my observation (and experience) that dealing with people with "history-based faith issues" is far outside the scope of their skill set.

 

Source: The four bishops I've talked with in my wards over the past 10 years have all told me exactly that.

 

Obviously, there is a wide range of knowledge among the different Bishops of the Church (I suspect Dan Peterson was comfortable dealing with such issues as a Bishop). But unless Bishops are given regular and uniform high quality training (and willing to spend time getting up to speed on these issues), it can be extremely helpful to have someone who is familiar with the problems to talk with those who are struggling.

[ksfisher]

Sadly, it has been my observation (and experience) that dealing with people with "history-based faith issues" is far outside the scope of their skill set.

 

Source: The four bishops I've talked with in my wards over the past 10 years have all told me exactly that.

 

Obviously, there is a wide range of knowledge among the different Bishops of the Church (I suspect Dan Peterson was comfortable dealing with such issues as a Bishop). But unless Bishops are given regular and uniform high quality training (and willing to spend time getting up to speed on these issues), it can be extremely helpful to have someone who is familiar with the problems to talk with those who are struggling.

 

I'm not meaning that bishops have knowledge of church history necessary to help someone struggling with questions.  The part of DB's statement that I quoted asked for someone who could empathize, understand, bear the burden, and offer a path back.  That is exactly the role of a bishop.  Bishops are called by God to fulfill this role and have access to the inspiration and revelation needed to help anyone return to Christ.  

 

They may not have all the answers (who does?), and we would be wrong in assuming that they do.  Many of the tough questions that we have we can only find through much study and prayer on our part.  But bishops do have stewardship for everyone in their flock.  To set someone else up in their place would seem to deny everyone involved the blessings that come from working with a bishop through a crisis.

[Paddy]

They may not have all the answers (who does?), and we would be wrong in assuming that they do. Many of the tough questions that we have we can only find through much study and prayer on our part. But bishops do have stewardship for everyone in their flock. To set someone else up in their place would seem to deny everyone involved the blessings that come from working with a bishop through a crisis.

The thing is that many who are in a faith crisis are often angry and have lost trust in the institution. This may find expression in being confrontational, disruptive in class, preaching to others information they have found, etc

A bishops role is also to defend he flock and in leiu of not being able to deal with the faith crisee they go to the next default which is protect the flock and remove the trouble maker. It does require a bishop with some skill and perspective who can take a person on a journey through that transition.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Paddy

[Rodeo]

Sorry, but you list a multitude of behaviours as choices, such as cheating on a spouse, or watching porn, which I will agree, all are choices.

I do not agree, however, with you grouping homosexuality as a "choice". Did you choose heterosexuality? You'll have to answer that one for yourself. But for me and everyone in my family, and everyone I've worked with for many, many years,, heterosexuality hasn't been a "choice". It is what I know and how I've lived, since I first felt attraction for the girl who lived three houses down the street from my house. It has displayed itself throughout my life, from first having a crush on Annette Funicello, from the Mickey Mouse Club (yes, I'm that old), to my choices (married twice) of life partners, both equally heterosexual.

And strangely enough, despite me being unabashedly heterosexual, I've felt no compunction to watch porn, cheat on my spouse, have multiple partners, swing, or be bisexual. Your mileage may vary.

"It pretty much all comes down to fantasies and fulfilling that sexual appetite." I think that comment sets the common denominator pretty low.

Homosexual behavior is a choice for the majority of homosexuals. Just as is also heterosexual behavior is also a choice. SSA is not a sin but acting upon that attraction is a "choice" and is a sin. A lot of our disposition relies on how we are are raised and the circumstances of our childhood and youth. Also coming into play is the acceptability of morals in society in general. Our bodies are like machines that we must learn to control. Our body likes pleasure wherever it can come from. But it is the disposition of our spirit to control it and guide it towards righteous fulfillment that matters. I have come to the hard conclusion that homosexual behavior is a choice- it is learned by following after the lusts and desires of the flesh. This same drive is also what leads people to all sorts of immoral behavior. I am married but I am also attracted to other women. I am attracted to pornography and other immoral devices. There is no sin in these attractions. But, if I act upon them then it is sin. The brain gets excited on sexual behavior which includes thoughts also. These patterns are learned early on in our childhood and youth. Our minds learn patterns that release these chemicals which excite the body. Its like a drug and can become very addictive. These are learned behaviors that a person chooses to make. As parents and leaders its our job to affirm proper gender attractions and proper sexual activity. We do this by teaching, censoring bad information, censoring bad images and dialogue and setting the proper example in our actions, in our dress, and in teaching children the right pathways mentally that lead to proper sexual outlets. It is no wonder there are more and more homosexuals today than there were in the past. we are failing in all of the above areas in large part. Hollywood is destroying marriage, destroying proper gender roles and destroying proper sexual activity. The commercialization of sex, of homosexual behavior and no consequences have led in large part to more homosexual behavior. We already know that parenting in large part is failing. More parents are out of the home, not supervising children, and definitely not teaching them sex education. The public schools have also blurred the lines of sexual identity and sexual activity. It is war! I have no doubts in my mind that the homosexual movement is one of Satan's many tools to lead God's children down into hell.

[Rodeo]

LDS leaders seem to think a majority do not choose such feelings

people here won't be comfortable with that stance.... dissent is risky.  Also your personal experience in no way proves as a large enough group to make any conclusions... just ask others here.

I have all kinds of sexual feelings or feelings of attractions that are immoral. These feelings come and they go. There are times when I dwell on some of those attractions and I end up sinning in one degree or another. I even know I am sinning doing it. But I am not born this way. I train my own attractions. I also have the ability to train my attractions into the proper channels. Homosexual behavior is defined as acting upon ones desires to please and fulfill physical needs. It is a sin in every fashion, form and situation. Think of this- heterosexual people like myself are very attracted to physical passions and pleasures. Left unbridled I could satisfy these pleasures in a variety of manners all of which are immoral and sinful. It doesnt take much for the mind to become convinced that any type of pleasure is acceptable and fun given the right situation. But to just say that "I was born this way" is false. No one is born to be sinful.

[DBMormon]

I wish him the best- absolutely, and I hope it works for him.  But outside the Mormon Corridor, I don't think it is going to fly.

 

No one out here in the real world even know about this stuff.  It is not in the news papers, nor is it a topic of discussion.  No one has even heard of Kate Kelly, and if they have, it is all in the category of "Anti-Mormon-Literature" which is about on the same level as pornography if you "read that stuff", or go on the internet to find it.

 

The leaders would never go on the internet to find answers to gospel questions unless it was on a church website.

 

 

Hi President *&*(*&&

I'm on the High Council in the @#@$@#, $%$## Stake.  I wanted to thank you for sharing Bishop Reel with us recently.  We kept him very busy a few weeks ago at our Regional YSA conference in @#$@# where he did a kickoff fireside and a workshop.  In addition he did a couple more presentations in the Lafayette Stake, including teaching a lesson in our YSA ward here at XYZ University.  I attended all his of his talks, except one of the workshops that he repeated, and I personally found them inspiring and useful.

On a personal note, at a technical meeting in July in San Francisco I got to spend some time with a close friend of mine from New Mexico.  He has a son that I've seen grow up, who is a return missionary, who has a young family, a PhD from Cornell, and is starting a faculty position in finance in Iowa.  His son is really just outstanding in every way.  He was certainly a role model for my sons to see and follow.  However, this young father (4 little kids) is going through a faith crises over many of the common issues that sometimes rattles people that have not heard about them before. He's still going to church, but is struggling with some issues. None of the issues are new, and I was able to give my friend several resources, many pointed to from Bill Reel's web page, that will hopefully help his son work through this.  My friend found these resources useful,  and I've shared some of these resources with some members here that are struggling also.  One thing I sent my friend was Bill's "15 Ways to Help" that he has shared with your stake, and I also shared that with our Stake Presidency (including Pres. @#$@ who I've cc:'d) who asked me to share it with our High Council.  That's a very helpful list of suggestions.  Thanks for having him prepare that.  I'm thankful he shared it too.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate Bill Reel and what he is doing.   Elder Bednar recent message talked powerfully about this kind of work (social media): https://www.lds.org/church/share/goodness?cid=HPMO081814340〈=eng   Faithful and authentic perspectives are really needed on the internet as Elder Bednar talked about, and I'm glad Bill is there pioneering these kinds of things.

All the best,

$$#$#$#% #$#$

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

I have all kinds of sexual feelings or feelings of attractions that are immoral. These feelings come and they go. There are times when I dwell on some of those attractions and I end up sinning in one degree or another. I even know I am sinning doing it. But I am not born this way. I train my own attractions. I also have the ability to train my attractions into the proper channels. Homosexual behavior is defined as acting upon ones desires to please and fulfill physical needs. It is a sin in every fashion, form and situation. Think of this- heterosexual people like myself are very attracted to physical passions and pleasures. Left unbridled I could satisfy these pleasures in a variety of manners all of which are immoral and sinful. It doesnt take much for the mind to become convinced that any type of pleasure is acceptable and fun given the right situation. But to just say that "I was born this way" is false. No one is born to be sinful.

And yet we are all the natural man with weakness.  I think we were designed to sin and in doing so become humble and turn to Christ whom we should look to for a remission of those sins!

[Grudunza]

Leaders are not going to some website for answers.

If it's not a phone number in a manual like the legal hotline, or on lds.org, it's not going to matter to them.

I can think of three bishops offhand that would do exactly that (look for answers online to help their ward members). Heck, I know Bill did that as a bishop. Surely there are many more. The Internet is a rather useful tool, you know. Many people are savvy enough to use it wisely.

[Hamba Tuhan]

No one is born to be sinful.

 

I think I was.

 

But I certainly wasn't born homosexual OR heterosexual, social constructs that didn't even exist until the end of the 19th century and which still are new categories of 'being' in many parts of the world that have suffered less of the West's colonisation of the imagination. I was just born to be sexual, with no prefix attached. And the Gospel of Jesus Christ has thankfully taught me the happy way to be so, free of the labels, philosophies, and shackles of men.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[Rodeo]

I think I was.

 

But I certainly wasn't born homosexual OR heterosexual, social constructs that didn't even exist until the end of the 19th century and which still are new categories of 'being' in many parts of the world that have suffered less of the West's colonisation of the imagination. I was just born to be sexual, with no prefix attached. And the Gospel of Jesus Christ has thankfully taught me the happy way to be so, free of the labels, philosophies, and shackles of men.

I agree with that and to add- people adjust to their surroundings and use their surroundings to fill needs. I have a family member who has been in prison (women's correctional) for about 20 years for her part in a botched kidnapping that led to murder. Before she went in she was perfectly heterosexual in all her behavior. Since her long incarceration she has a girlfriend with whom she has a sexual relationship with. It fills a need for her. People adapt, they learn new behaviors or adapt and modify behaviors. Iwas a very troubled teenager and for years I went to see a Headshrinker. For a long time they analyzed me and I analyzed them. We talked about all sorts of things but what intrigued me the most is really how adaptive the brain and body is to sensory inputs. Many of our behaviors in society are brought on by sensory inputs. Sometimes they are forced upon us unwillingly. Another case study- I have another family member who is in prison (men's correctional) and he had several boys. Over the years he exposed them to pornography and other immoral acts. He ended up in prison for sexually abusing a minor. Two of his children also came of age and did the same acts which led one to kill himself. Very very tragic story to say the least. These were in my opinion learned behaviors because of the sensory inputs early in their lives. My shrink taught me about the power of persuasion and how effectively we can use it for our good to change our behavior or modify it. I am now a very laidback humble person now because I wanted change and was equipped to change how my brain is wired. The power of our bodies and minds is truly amazing if we know how to work it.

[Rodeo]

And yet we are all the natural man with weakness.  I think we were designed to sin and in doing so become humble and turn to Christ whom we should look to for a remission of those sins!

I agree. I know one of my greatest weaknesses is pornography. Thats why I stay away from it as much as I can control. It does indeed humble me.

[sunstoned]

Homosexual behavior is a choice for the majority of homosexuals. Just as is also heterosexual behavior is also a choice. SSA is not a sin but acting upon that attraction is a "choice" and is a sin. A lot of our disposition relies on how we are are raised and the circumstances of our childhood and youth. Also coming into play is the acceptability of morals in society in general. Our bodies are like machines that we must learn to control. Our body likes pleasure wherever it can come from. But it is the disposition of our spirit to control it and guide it towards righteous fulfillment that matters. I have come to the hard conclusion that homosexual behavior is a choice- it is learned by following after the lusts and desires of the flesh. This same drive is also what leads people to all sorts of immoral behavior. I am married but I am also attracted to other women. I am attracted to pornography and other immoral devices. There is no sin in these attractions. But, if I act upon them then it is sin. The brain gets excited on sexual behavior which includes thoughts also. These patterns are learned early on in our childhood and youth. Our minds learn patterns that release these chemicals which excite the body. Its like a drug and can become very addictive. These are learned behaviors that a person chooses to make. As parents and leaders its our job to affirm proper gender attractions and proper sexual activity. We do this by teaching, censoring bad information, censoring bad images and dialogue and setting the proper example in our actions, in our dress, and in teaching children the right pathways mentally that lead to proper sexual outlets. It is no wonder there are more and more homosexuals today than there were in the past. we are failing in all of the above areas in large part. Hollywood is destroying marriage, destroying proper gender roles and destroying proper sexual activity. The commercialization of sex, of homosexual behavior and no consequences have led in large part to more homosexual behavior. We already know that parenting in large part is failing. More parents are out of the home, not supervising children, and definitely not teaching them sex education. The public schools have also blurred the lines of sexual identity and sexual activity. It is war! I have no doubts in my mind that the homosexual movement is one of Satan's many tools to lead God's children down into hell.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter how uninformed and unfortunate they are.

[Rodeo]

Everyone is entitled to there own opinions no matter how uninformed and unfortunate they are.

I am informed. Thanks.

 

You are walking a fine line. We do not allow gay bashing on this board.

[omni]

Homosexual behavior is a choice for the majority of homosexuals. Just as is also heterosexual behavior is also a choice. SSA is not a sin but acting upon that attraction is a "choice" and is a sin. A lot of our disposition relies on how we are are raised and the circumstances of our childhood and youth. Also coming into play is the acceptability of morals in society in general. Our bodies are like machines that we must learn to control. Our body likes pleasure wherever it can come from. But it is the disposition of our spirit to control it and guide it towards righteous fulfillment that matters. I have come to the hard conclusion that homosexual behavior is a choice- it is learned by following after the lusts and desires of the flesh. This same drive is also what leads people to all sorts of immoral behavior. I am married but I am also attracted to other women. I am attracted to pornography and other immoral devices. There is no sin in these attractions. But, if I act upon them then it is sin. The brain gets excited on sexual behavior which includes thoughts also. These patterns are learned early on in our childhood and youth. Our minds learn patterns that release these chemicals which excite the body. Its like a drug and can become very addictive. These are learned behaviors that a person chooses to make. As parents and leaders its our job to affirm proper gender attractions and proper sexual activity. We do this by teaching, censoring bad information, censoring bad images and dialogue and setting the proper example in our actions, in our dress, and in teaching children the right pathways mentally that lead to proper sexual outlets. It is no wonder there are more and more homosexuals today than there were in the past. we are failing in all of the above areas in large part. Hollywood is destroying marriage, destroying proper gender roles and destroying proper sexual activity. The commercialization of sex, of homosexual behavior and no consequences have led in large part to more homosexual behavior. We already know that parenting in large part is failing. More parents are out of the home, not supervising children, and definitely not teaching them sex education. The public schools have also blurred the lines of sexual identity and sexual activity. It is war! I have no doubts in my mind that the homosexual movement is one of Satan's many tools to lead God's children down into hell.

I had to double check to see if this was an old thread from the 90's. Nope, 2014 and we still have this way of thinking.

[JLHPROF]

I had to double check to see if this was an old thread from the 90's. Nope, 2014 and we still have this way of thinking.

 

What did he say that contradicts the gospel?  He said many things that contradict the world's opinion, but what did he say that is disagreed with by God?

[Rodeo]

I had to double check to see if this was an old thread from the 90's. Nope, 2014 and we still have this way of thinking.

And so it is wrong for me to decry homosexual behavior as a sinful choice? I feel the same way about people who choose to cheat on their spouse or have addictions to pornography. I was once addicted to pornography. Its all immoral behavior and all sinful. Its a choice we make. We choose the pathways of our own adventure.

[Rodeo]

You are walking a fine line. We do not allow gay bashing on this board.

I am not gay bashing. I am speaking about sinful behavior. If you would read through the thread you would realize that I have no issue with SSA and feel for those who endure it. But, I do see homosexual behavior as sinful and as a choice people make and it is wrong and we need to stop sugar coating the problem.

[mfbukowski]

 

I wish him the best- absolutely, and I hope it works for him.  But outside the Mormon Corridor, I don't think it is going to fly.

 

No one out here in the real world even know about this stuff.  It is not in the news papers, nor is it a topic of discussion.  No one has even heard of Kate Kelly, and if they have, it is all in the category of "Anti-Mormon-Literature" which is about on the same level as pornography if you "read that stuff", or go on the internet to find it.

 

The leaders would never go on the internet to find answers to gospel questions unless it was on a church website.

 

 

Hi President *&*(*&&

I'm on the High Council in the @#@$@#, $%$## Stake.  I wanted to thank you for sharing Bishop Reel with us recently.  We kept him very busy a few weeks ago at our Regional YSA conference in @#$@# where he did a kickoff fireside and a workshop.  In addition he did a couple more presentations in the Lafayette Stake, including teaching a lesson in our YSA ward here at XYZ University.  I attended all his of his talks, except one of the workshops that he repeated, and I personally found them inspiring and useful.

On a personal note, at a technical meeting in July in San Francisco I got to spend some time with a close friend of mine from New Mexico.  He has a son that I've seen grow up, who is a return missionary, who has a young family, a PhD from Cornell, and is starting a faculty position in finance in Iowa.  His son is really just outstanding in every way.  He was certainly a role model for my sons to see and follow.  However, this young father (4 little kids) is going through a faith crises over many of the common issues that sometimes rattles people that have not heard about them before. He's still going to church, but is struggling with some issues. None of the issues are new, and I was able to give my friend several resources, many pointed to from Bill Reel's web page, that will hopefully help his son work through this.  My friend found these resources useful,  and I've shared some of these resources with some members here that are struggling also.  One thing I sent my friend was Bill's "15 Ways to Help" that he has shared with your stake, and I also shared that with our Stake Presidency (including Pres. @#$@ who I've cc:'d) who asked me to share it with our High Council.  That's a very helpful list of suggestions.  Thanks for having him prepare that.  I'm thankful he shared it too.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate Bill Reel and what he is doing.   Elder Bednar recent message talked powerfully about this kind of work (social media): https://www.lds.org/church/share/goodness?cid=HPMO081814340〈=eng   Faithful and authentic perspectives are really needed on the internet as Elder Bednar talked about, and I'm glad Bill is there pioneering these kinds of things.

All the best,

$$#$#$#% #$#$

 

 

Well good for you DB.  I wish you well and hope I am mistaken.  Are you getting invitations from out of state?  Anything from leaders who found you on the internet as opposed to knowing you personally?

 

I would imagine that would be the great challenge- earning trust of leadership who had never heard of you except on the internet.  Of course if you have official endorsements, that would be vastly different.

 

I would find it very difficult to carry on the kind of work you do with your personal level of doubt, but we each deal with these issues differently.

 

I really would still like to sit down with you for an hour or so and chat sometime.