Who Has Family Members Who Have Left?

[Tacenda]

Of my family of ten (parents and 8 kids), all are active. Six of the eight kids (4 boys, 2 girls) served missions. All married in the temple. One brother briefly fell away from the church and dabbled in atheism. He has since returned and is currently very active in the church.

Of my parents' 44 grandchildren, 2 are currently not active in the church.

This could be my husband's family. Therefore the harm from or pain given, if one leaves such a faithful family in the church.

[jkwilliams]

This could be my husband's family. Therefore the harm from or pain given, if one leaves such a faithful family in the church.

It's not necessarily easier for families with more than one who leave. My older brother and oldest sister walked away from the church when they went off to college. My older sister and I, however, pretty much lived a normal LDS life: we both graduated from BYU (she with an MS and I with an MA), I served a mission, we both married returned missionaries in the temple, and we both served in numerous callings and leadership positions. My mother told me from the time I was very young that I had been preserved from a potentially fatal birth defect because I had a special mission for the Lord. Needless to say, my parents were devastated when I left the church at age 40. My mom still can't talk about it 9 years later.

I think LDS parents and family members grieve over every family member who leaves the church. It's natural because parents want their children to have the blessings of the gospel, and we've been taught that certain events and behaviors (missions, temple marriage, callings, etc.) are markers of success and happiness; when a family member walks away, it feels like failure, and the child is in a way "lost."

[DJBrown]

This could be my husband's family. Therefore the harm from or pain given, if one leaves such a faithful family in the church.

 

I believe the response to a child or family member who leaves the church is more a function of the family culture than how many in the family are active.  There is a variety of ways people can respond to family members disassociating themselves with the family religion.  It always hurts, but we choose how to respond.  And I think a lot of times it is the response that either seals the individuals decision to leave or ultimately facilitates the softening of his or her heart to consider returning.  

[DBMormon]

It sounds like the panel is dealing with those who have left feeling the Church is not what it claims.  With this in mind the poll should focus on differentiating between people who have left due to a complete loss of belief and leaving for other reasons (obviously we never know for certain but even a guess tells us more than current poll as I have two members who left and both left for no Unbelief issues.)

Edited June 3, 2014 by DBMormon

[CA Steve]

It sounds like the panel is dealing with those who have left feeling the Church is not what it claims.  With this in mind the poll should focus on differentiating between people who have left due to a complete loss of belief and leaving for other reasons (obviously we never know for certain but even a guess tells us more than current poll as I have two members who left and both left for no Unbelief issues.)

Hi DBMormon,

 

I created the poll only to find out how many of us have family members who have left. I wanted to avoid discussions about why people left due to forum rules. I agree with you that the reasons for leaving are important to understand and that would make an interesting poll. I am not sure it would be possible to create such a poll and remain within forum guidelines. 

[Gray]

We tend to think of this as Mormon problem, but it's actually a problem that most religions are facing right now. 

[wenglund]

We tend to think of this as Mormon problem, but it's actually a problem that most religions are facing right now. 

 

Agreed.

 

It is also a problem that cuts both ways. There are those who grieve for those who have left the faith, and there are also those who grieve for those who stay.

 

The best advise I can give for both sides is to adhere to the 11th Article of Faith. It is working for me in my relationships with family members and friends who have formally and informally left the Church.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stargazer]

The question I have here, is what do you mean "left"?

 

1. Inactive, no longer attends or keeps commandments, but is still a member "on paper"

2. Has had name removed from Church records, or has been excommunicated.

 

 

[CA Steve]

The question I have here, is what do you mean "left"?

 

1. Inactive, no longer attends or keeps commandments, but is still a member "on paper"

2. Has had name removed from Church records, or has been excommunicated.

What I was aiming at was trying to get a sense of how many forum participants would be interested in the proposed round table discussion about family members who have left, at the upcoming FAIR conference. I intentionally left the definition of "left" up to each person because of the focus of the poll was to see how many of us are dealing with situations within our families where one or more family members no longer believes. For myself I would accept either of your two definitions as qualifying and maybe even add someone who participates on a limited basis strictly for family reasons but has made it clear he/she no longer believes. Someone might even include a relative who is clearly on his/her way out but is still active. It is not a scientific poll and the results are not indicative of anything more than a sampling of this particular forum.

[Rain]

My brother no long believes and sometimes attends a non christian church.  It's been interesting reading this thread because it makes me wonder if I would fit into the discussions.  see, my brother is also an alcoholic, addict and sometimes homeless.  This has been going on for 30 years.  We no longer really hope for him to come back to church.  What we hope for is for him to break the bond of addiction. While I believe fully in the idea of teaching doctrine to change behavior I don't know that we could get him to believe in the doctrine before the behavior was changed at this point.  We're going to have to leave it up to the Lord at this point. 

 

I would be interested in the discussion though for another family member.  While he hasn't left he has a belief that it doesn't matter if he goes the Lord's way or his way.  I would love to be a part to be able to learn better, prepare in case he does leave, but mostly to see if there isn't something I can pick up to help him not leave.

[Gray]

Agreed.

 

It is also a problem that cuts both ways. There are those who grieve for those who have left the faith, and there are also those who grieve for those who stay.

 

The best advise I can give for both sides is to adhere to the 11th Article of Faith. It is working for me in my relationships with family members and friends who have formally and informally left the Church.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I think that's the best approach, Wade. Agreed.

[Stargazer]

When you take into account that the vast majority of church members don't participate in any form of organized Mormonism any longer...the implications of this poll are only the tip of the iceberg...

 

"vast majority"?  LOL. Anything like that "vast right-wing conspiracy"?

To say that the "vast majority" of Church members no longer participate is quite frankly ludicrous. Exaggerate much?

 

Well, here's the take of some English usage cognoscentis on "vast majority":

 

I suppose I am being quite idiosyncratic, but when I use an adjective in front of "majority", I use these rankings, especially when thinking about elections:

Vast majority - means almost all or something like 90% or more, but less than unanimous.

It may not convey >90% to all readers — you have to be quite careful with this sort of usage. However, if the document uses vast majority in a sense that makes it a subset of most, then I think you can get away with it. It’s certainly a useful phrase, but there's always almost all or all but a few.

In a technical document I might use it but only if I had the actual percentage. For example

The result was positive in the vast majority (94.3%) of cases.

I recently used "vast majority" in writing about a company once having over a thousand stores covering many states which now has 94 of 107 remaining stores in just one state.

Many Michigan units continue operations stripped of the Elias Brothers name and these are the vast majority (88%) of BBRI's American Big Boy stores.

If your exaggeration were accurate, attendance at our Sacrament meeting last Sunday would have been 20. In fact, our Sacrament meeting attendance is approximately 50% of the number of members in our ward's records.

[Kenngo1969]

What do folks here feel about why the numbers are what they are?

Free will and/or moral agency ...

 

(Dang it! )

 

[Kenngo1969]

I believe the response to a child or family member who leaves the church is more a function of the family culture than how many in the family are active.  There is a variety of ways people can respond to family members disassociating themselves with the family religion.  It always hurts, but we choose how to respond.  And I think a lot of times it is the response that either seals the individuals decision to leave or ultimately facilitates the softening of his or her heart to consider returning.  

Exactly!  In the words of the title of a book authored by Hyrum W. Smith, "Pain is inevitable; misery is optional."

[jkwilliams]

"vast majority"?  LOL. Anything like that "vast right-wing conspiracy"?

To say that the "vast majority" of Church members no longer participate is quite frankly ludicrous. Exaggerate much?

I dunno. Most estimates suggest that of the 14 million members on the records, only about 4-5 millions are active. 10 million out of 14 million is certainly a significant majority if not a vast one.

 

If your exaggeration were accurate, attendance at our Sacrament meeting last Sunday would have been 20. In fact, our Sacrament meeting attendance is approximately 50% of the number of members in our ward's records.

I didn't realize there was a numeric definition of vast majority. I've been in several wards and branches with 250-700 members on the records but with sacrament meeting attendance less than 20. But I wouldn't dream of saying those congregations were any more representative than yours.

[stemelbow]

I dunno. Most estimates suggest that of the 14 million members on the records, only about 4-5 millions are active. 10 million out of 14 million is certainly a significant majority if not a vast one.

 

I didn't realize there was a numeric definition of vast majority. I've been in several wards and branches with 250-700 members on the records but with sacrament meeting attendance less than 20. But I wouldn't dream of saying those congregations were any more representative than yours.

I think I figured out where Johnnie Cake was going with this, but his vast majority of members no longer participating in any form seems a bit off. While I've been in wards with very low attendance rates, many in the inactive list were still in some sense participators, even believers. Even with that, majority? sure. Vast majority? That seems to stretch things a bit, you know use language in a less meaningful way? 30-40% isn't 5 or 10% after all.

With that said the numbers are interesting and it does speak to the level of belief and/or commitment.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

 

"vast majority"?  LOL. Anything like that "vast right-wing conspiracy"?

To say that the "vast majority" of Church members no longer participate is quite frankly ludicrous. Exaggerate much?

 

Well, here's the take of some English usage cognoscentis on "vast majority":

 

If your exaggeration were accurate, attendance at our Sacrament meeting last Sunday would have been 20. In fact, our Sacrament meeting attendance is approximately 50% of the number of members in our ward's records.

While I agree that the use of the word vast is a stretch, looking at local attendance is telling only part of the story as "lost address file" members are not included. The cumorah project estimates that these members make up 10% of the membership in the states and 30% of the membership in the developing world. See here.

 

The same people estimate that worldwide, 40% of baptized members would self report as Mormons and attendance on any given Sunday across the globe is about 27-30%

Edited June 5, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Storm Rider]

While I agree that the use of the word vast is a stretch, looking at local attendance is telling only part of the story as "lost address file" members are not included. The cumorah project estimates that these members make up 10% of the membership in the states and 30% of the membership in the developing world. See here.

 

The same people estimate that worldwide, 40% of baptized members would self report as Mormons and attendance on any given Sunday across the globe is about 27-30%

 

No, it is not a just a stretch. It is spin of the worst order. It is repeated knowing that it is deceitful, but it falls in line with an agenda and so it meets the test of "accuracy" desired by those that push this agenda.  The question is why is there an agenda in the first place?  What motivates individuals to consistently distort facts to meet this agenda against The Church of Jesus Christ?  

 

For you to stand on any foundation of respectability, be honest with everyone; both those that support your opinion and those who do not.   

[SeekingUnderstanding]

No, it is not a just a stretch. It is spin of the worst order. It is repeated knowing that it is deceitful, but it falls in line with an agenda and so it meets the test of "accuracy" desired by those that push this agenda.  The question is why is there an agenda in the first place?  What motivates individuals to consistently distort facts to meet this agenda against The Church of Jesus Christ?  

 

For you to stand on any foundation of respectability, be honest with everyone; both those that support your opinion and those who do not.   

Yikes! Spin of the worst order, deceitful, agenda pushing. Yesterday I picked up the Ensign and read the first presidency message from Pres. Monson on Hastening the work. He states (emphasis mine):

 

 

Do you realize that the restored Church was 98 years old before it had 100 stakes? But less than 30 years later, the Church had organized its second 100 stakes. And only eight years after that the Church had more than 300 stakes. Today we are more than 3,000 stakes strong.

Why is this growth taking place at an accelerated rate? Is it because we are better known? Is it because we have lovely chapels?

These things are important, but the reason the Church is growing today is that the Lord indicated it would. In the Doctrine and Covenants, He said, “Behold, I will hasten my work in its time.”¹

 

From reading this introduction with no other information, I'd assume that today's growth rate for the church was very high compared to rest of church history. This does not appear to be true. Since the turn of the century, new stakes have been added at a rate of less than 1% per year (just beating the US population growth rate and just under the world population growth rate). Membership growth rate last year was the lowest since the 40's. Convert baptisms per state were in the 70's compared to 150-200 / stake just a few decades ago. 

 

I would say that statement "Why is this growth taking place at an accelerated rate?" is a stretch, but it is a common one that I hear at church.

 

Tell me Storm Rider, what is your honest opinion of President Monson's opening statement? Is it spin? Is it of the worst order? Is it repeated knowing its deceitful to push an agenda?

 

I personally prefer to call them like I see them without ascribing motive as I don't have a crystal ball to look into Johnnie Cake's mind any more than I can look in the mind President Monson. It is a stretch to say that the vast majority of members no longer participate in the LDS church. It is also a stretch to say that current church growth is happening at "an accelerated rate."

Edited June 9, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding