A Future Seer

[Coreyb]

Do we expect as latter day saints expect a prophet like Joseph Smith to be raised up prior to the coming of Christ? Obviously we believe Joseph to have opened the final gospel dispensation before "The End", but are we waiting on a "Forerunner" or "One Mighty and Strong" perhaps? Many will recognize that phrase from D&C 85 that has been used by many as a prophecy of their own divine mission to set in order the church. The question I am asking is, with all the folklore and prophecy of great future events within the church (New scriptures to come forth like the sealed portion and the book of Enoch, Large movements of people and city building like going back to Jackson, and possibly a rescue of the U.S. Constitution  ), are we holding out for a charismatic leader to find another seer stone and get us moving again, or do we expect things to pretty much go the way they have been going until...     ...when? Are we moving past our millenarianism of our younger years, and now are embracing the becoming of "a new world religion" that will be around for a few thousand years if all goes well? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS. next time I will start a topic when its not 2 am and I can articulate my thoughts a bit better.

[Storm Rider]

I think we are still a church that believes that these are the latter days. I don't think the Church teaches or is waiting for a "final" seer. We do teach that the scriptures will be fulfilled and that there are events that are needed prior to the second coming of Christ. The Church does teach that there will be many churches that remain during the Millennium i.e. even after Christ returns in his glory people will still follow their own conscious.  

[Duncan]

it refers to the Bishop of the Church Edward Partridge who was to divide he inheritances of the membership. He was out of order and if he didn't repent another would be put in place, he did repent so it wasn't necessary

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Do we expect as latter day saints expect a prophet like Joseph Smith to be raised up prior to the coming of Christ? Obviously we believe Joseph to have opened the final gospel dispensation before "The End", but are we waiting on a "Forerunner" or "One Mighty and Strong" perhaps? Many will recognize that phrase from D&C 85 that has been used by many as a prophecy of their own divine mission to set in order the church. The question I am asking is, with all the folklore and prophecy of great future events within the church (New scriptures to come forth like the sealed portion and the book of Enoch, Large movements of people and city building like going back to Jackson, and possibly a rescue of the U.S. Constitution  ), are we holding out for a charismatic leader to find another seer stone and get us moving again, or do we expect things to pretty much go the way they have been going until...     ...when? Are we moving past our millenarianism of our younger years, and now are embracing the becoming of "a new world religion" that will be around for a few thousand years if all goes well? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS. next time I will start a topic when its not 2 am and I can articulate my thoughts a bit better.

We have had many charismatic leaders since Joseph. Whomever is Prophet when Christ comes again, him will God make equal to that day.

[thesometimesaint]

Do we expect as latter day saints expect a prophet like Joseph Smith to be raised up prior to the coming of Christ? Obviously we believe Joseph to have opened the final gospel dispensation before "The End", but are we waiting on a "Forerunner" or "One Mighty and Strong" perhaps? Many will recognize that phrase from D&C 85 that has been used by many as a prophecy of their own divine mission to set in order the church. The question I am asking is, with all the folklore and prophecy of great future events within the church (New scriptures to come forth like the sealed portion and the book of Enoch, Large movements of people and city building like going back to Jackson, and possibly a rescue of the U.S. Constitution  ), are we holding out for a charismatic leader to find another seer stone and get us moving again, or do we expect things to pretty much go the way they have been going until...     ...when? Are we moving past our millenarianism of our younger years, and now are embracing the becoming of "a new world religion" that will be around for a few thousand years if all goes well? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS. next time I will start a topic when its not 2 am and I can articulate my thoughts a bit better.

 

I don't know much, but I do know the name of the Church.

[JLHPROF]

it refers to the Bishop of the Church Edward Partridge who was to divide he inheritances of the membership. He was out of order and if he didn't repent another would be put in place, he did repent so it wasn't necessary

 

That's one theory...

[JLHPROF]

are we holding out for a charismatic leader to find another seer stone and get us moving again, or do we expect things to pretty much go the way they have been going until...     ...when? Are we moving past our millenarianism of our younger years, and now are embracing the becoming of "a new world religion" that will be around for a few thousand years if all goes well?

 

I don't think we are waiting for a charismatic leader - I think the prophet at that time will have all the help of the Lord to perform the tasks of that day.  And at least for myself, I am still a milleniallist (it's coming soonish).  I don't think we will have hundreds of years to become a major world religion in the manner you suggest.

 

Do we expect as latter day saints expect a prophet like Joseph Smith to be raised up prior to the coming of Christ? Obviously we believe Joseph to have opened the final gospel dispensation before "The End", but are we waiting on a "Forerunner" or "One Mighty and Strong" perhaps? Many will recognize that phrase from D&C 85 that has been used by many as a prophecy of their own divine mission to set in order the church.

 

The One Mighty & Strong is an entirely different subject.    People need to read D&C 85:7 again and then say it refers to a mortal man.  It's not Edward Partridge, a living prophet or any of the crazies who have claimed the title.  It clearly refers to a resurrected being judging the saints of this dispensation.  Just as verse 9 refers to it being a future event.  Any guesses which resurrected being would be qualified to judge the saints and issue them their inheritances.

[Coreyb]

I used the one mighty and strong reference to show how some Mormons have been looking for such a charismatic leader and it has led them out of the church. I know about the Edward Partridge interpretation and disagree that it's just about him. At the least I think it is probably a prophecy that has a double meaning (I like JLPROF's interpretation). My question is not really about that scripture (sorry for including it), but more about the other stuff I said.

[pogi]

Are we moving past our millenarianism of our younger years, and now are embracing the becoming of "a new world religion" that will be around for a few thousand years if all goes well? Your thoughts please...

 

In that they don't really know when the millenium will be, I think that the church is preparing for both possibilities of a near millenium or one that might not come for another thousand years.  If we are both physically and spiritually prepared, as they teach us to be, it doesn't really matter when it comes - we will be ready.

[The Nehor]

I personally hope Joseph comes back to handle some of the ending stuff.

[Duncan]

I don't think we are waiting for a charismatic leader - I think the prophet at that time will have all the help of the Lord to perform the tasks of that day.  And at least for myself, I am still a milleniallist (it's coming soonish).  I don't think we will have hundreds of years to become a major world religion in the manner you suggest.

 

 

The One Mighty & Strong is an entirely different subject.    People need to read D&C 85:7 again and then say it refers to a mortal man.  It's not Edward Partridge, a living prophet or any of the crazies who have claimed the title.  It clearly refers to a resurrected being judging the saints of this dispensation.  Just as verse 9 refers to it being a future event.  Any guesses which resurrected being would be qualified to judge the saints and issue them their inheritances.

 

we must be reading different sections 85 of the DC then! I don't get that interpretation whatsoever and I don't see why it couldn't be Edward Partridge who was appointed to as it says "to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints "

[JLHPROF]

we must be reading different sections 85 of the DC then! I don't get that interpretation whatsoever and I don't see why it couldn't be Edward Partridge who was appointed to as it says "to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints "

 

Because of all the stuff right before that:

it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send - future event, not current events

one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand,  - did Edward Partridge hold the scepter of power as a Bishop?  Maybe...

clothed with light for a covering,  - now that generally would imply resurrection (or at the very least temple ordinances Patrdge never received)

whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words - now this generally would imply a heavenly messenger or revelation, not a Bishop

while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, - set in order the house of God (the temple?)  - a little above Patridge's pay grade.

 

The One Mighty & Strong is NOT a reference to a mortal man or temporal inheritances.

D&C 85:9 also mentions that "all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day," - doesn't sound like a reference to converts in Missouri to me, but in a future day.

 

Verses 1-5 probably refer to the temporal situation with saints consecrating and Partridge.  But then verses 6-12 definitely switches to prophecy.

Edited March 30, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Duncan]

Because of all the stuff right before that:

it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send - future event, not current events

one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand,  - did Edward Partridge hold the scepter of power as a Bishop?  Maybe...

clothed with light for a covering,  - now that generally would imply resurrection (or at the very least temple ordinances Patrdge never received)

whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words - now this generally would imply a heavenly messenger or revelation, not a Bishop

while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, - set in order the house of God (the temple?)  - a little above Patridge's pay grade.

 

The One Mighty & Strong is NOT a reference to a mortal man or temporal inheritances.

D&C 85:9 also mentions that "all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day," - doesn't sound like a reference to converts in Missouri to me, but in a future day.

 

Verses 1-5 probably refer to the temporal situation with saints consecrating and Partridge.  But then verses 6-12 definitely switches to prophecy.

 

 

thanks! Read this letter from the First Presidency from 1907, Presidents Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund and John R. Winder

 

"Perhaps no other passage in the revelations of the Lord, in this dispensation, has given rise to so much speculation as this one. [Sec. 85:6-8.] Also, it has been used by vain and foolish men to bolster up their vagaries of speculation, and in some cases their pretensions to great power and high positions they were to attain in the Church. In a word, some have made claims that they were the particular individual mentioned in the revelation, the "one mighty and strong holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints."

One would think in such a matter as this "that" sufficient native modesty would assert itself to restrain a man from announcing himself as the one upon whom such high honors are to be conferred, and who is to exercise such great powers in establishing the Saints in their inheritances; and that even if one suspected, for any reason, that such a position, and such exceptional powers were to be conferred upon him, he would wait until the Lord would clearly indicate to the Church, as well as to himself, that he has been indeed sent of God to do the work of so noble a ministry, as is described in the passage under question. Those, however, who have so far proclaimed themselves as being the "one mighty and strong," have manifested the utmost ignorance of the things of God and the order of the Church. Indeed their insufferable ignorance and egotism have been at the bottom of all their pretensions, and the cause of all the trouble into which they have fallen. They seem not to have been aware of the fact that the Church of Christ and of the Saints is completely organized, and that when the man who shall be called upon to divide unto the Saints their inheritances comes, he will be designated by the inspiration of the Lord to the proper authorities of the Church, appointed and sustained according to the order provided for the government of the Church. So long as that Church remains in the earth—and we have the assurance from the Lord that it will now remain in the earth forever [Sec. 65]—the Saints need look for nothing for God's appointing that will be erratic, or irregular, or that smacks of starting over afresh or that would ignore or overthrow the established order of things. The Saints should remember that they are living in the dispensations of the fulness of times, when the Church of Christ is established in the earth for the last days and for the last time, and that God's Church is a Church of order, or law, and that there is no place for anarchy in it. (D&C Sec. 112:30; also Secs. 33:3; 43:28-31.)

The revelation from which the passage is quoted is a portion of a letter to William W. Phelps, written by the Prophet from Kirtland under date of November the 27th 1832. William W. Phelps, at the time was at Independence, Missouri. In order that the reader may have the whole matter before him, the letter is reproduced in extenso, and the parts afterwards accept as the word of the Lord indicated: [HC 1:297-99, quoted.]

It is to be observed first of all that the subject of this whole letter, as also the part of it subsequently accepted as a revelation, relates to the affairs of the Church in Missouri, the gatherings of the Saints to the land and obtaining their inheritances under the law of consecration and stewardship; and the Prophet deals especially with the matter of what is to become of those who fail to receive their inheritances by order or deed from the bishop. The petition which the Prophet puts into the mouth of his correspondent, Elder Phelps, is:

"Show unto Thy servant what shall become of all those who are essaying to come up unto Zion, in order to keep the commandments of God, and yet receive not their inheritance by consecrations, by order or deed from the Bishop, the man that God has appointed in a legal way, agreeably to the law given to organize and regulate the Church and all the affairs of the same."

This paragraph clearly proved that the subject in hand is the settling of the Saints in Missouri, granting them their inheritances, and the order of it all. In addition, the "bishop," who was Edward Partridge, is especially referred to as "the man that God has appointed in a legal way, agreeably to the law given to organize and regulate the Church and all the affairs of the same. . . . "

It was while these conditions of rebellion, jealousy, pride, unbelief, and hardness of heart prevailed among the brethren in Zion, [Sec. 84:54-58, 76, quoted]—Jackson County, Missouri—in all of which Bishop Partridge participated, that the words of the revelation taken from the letter to William W. Phelps, of the 27th of November, 1832, were written. The "man who was called and appointed of God" to "divide unto the Saints their inheritance"—Edward Partridge—was at that time out of order, neglecting his own duty, and putting "forth his hand to steady the ark," hence, he was warned of the judgment of God impending, and the prediction was made that another, "one mighty and strong," would be sent of God to take his place, to have his bishopric—one having the spirit and power of that high office resting upon him by which he would have power to "set in order the house of God, and arrange by lot the inheritance of the Saints"; in other words, one who would do the work that Bishop Edward Partridge had been appointed to do, but had failed to accomplish.

"But," it will be asked, "does Bishop Partridge fulfill the terms of the prophecy that relate to the man 'falling by the shaft of death, like a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning?' " That should not be said without some qualification; although Edward Partridge died eight years later, in the forty-seventh year of his age, a victim of the persecution he suffered in Missouri.

Edward Partridge, in common with most of the Saints in Missouri, as a result of the reproofs and warnings of the Prophet and others, was brought to a partial repentance; still, as late as March, 1833, notwithstanding the partial repentance referred to, the Lord expressed himself as being "not well pleased" with Bishop Partridge and others: [Sec. 90:34-36, quoted.]

Because of the failure of the Saints in Zion to fully repent and keep the commandments of the Lord, the fury of their enemies burst upon them, and they were driven from their possessions into exile, and their homes were destroyed. We here give the Lord's explanation of the troubles that came upon the people; it is found in a revelation given under date of December 16th 1833: (Sec. 101:1-9, quoted.]

In the midst of the troublous times in Missouri, Edward Partridge acted a most noble and self-sacrificing part, and bore many indignities with the greatest patience. He was taken to the public square of Independence, partly stripped of his clothing, and bedaubed with tar and feathers, amid the jeers of the mob. He neither complained nor murmured at this treatment, but bore it well, with meekness and dignity. He was one with five others to offer himself as a ransom for the Church, "Willing to be scourged or even put to death," if that would but satisfy the tormentors of the Saints, and stop the inhuman cruelties practiced towards them by the Missourians. He was also active in settling the Saints in upper Missouri, in 1836-8. He shared in all the labors and hardships incident to the settlement of a new country, and subsequently passed through the trials attendant upon the exodus of the Saints from Missouri. Who shall say that his repentance, his sacrifices, his sufferings and faithfulness did not procure for him a mitigation of the severe judgment decreed against him in the revelation contained in the eighty-fifth section of the Doctrine and Covenants? At any rate, the Lord said, some three years later, that he was well pleased with Edward Partridge. The word of the Lord came to the Prophet to this effect, on the 7th of November, 1835:

"Behold, I am well pleased with my servant Isaac Morley, and my servant Edward Partridge, because of the integrity of their hearts in laboring in my vineyard, for the salvation of the souls of men. Verily I say unto you, their sins are forgiven them, therefore, say unto them in my name, that it is my will that they should tarry for a little season, (in Kirtland) and attend the school and also the solemn assembly, for a wise purpose in me. Even so. Amen." (History of the Church, Vol. II, pp. 302-3.)

Certainly in the face of this plain statement of the Lord's that the sins of Edward Partridge were forgiven him we do not feel that his sad and early death was the fulfillment of the threatened judgment of the revelation. But that he was the man so threatened in that revelation, there can be no question; not only on account of what is here set forth, but also because Orson Pratt, one familiar with Edward Partridge, and an active participant in all these historical matters, publicly declared from the pulpit in Salt Lake City, about the time of the death of President Young, that the man referred to in that passage of revelation in question, was Bishop Edward Partridge. Of the fact of his statement, there can be no doubt; and at the time he was the historian of the Church as well as a member of the quorum of the Apostles.

Now, as to the "one mighty and strong," who shall be sent of God, "to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritance of the Saints." Who is he? What position will he hold in the Church? In what manner will he come to his calling? We draw attention first of all to the fact that this whole letter to William W. Phelps, as well as the part afterwards accepted as the word of the Lord, related to the affairs of the Church in Zion, Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. And inasmuch as through his repentance and sacrifices and suffering, Bishop Partridge undoubtedly obtained a mitigation of the threatened judgment affixed against him of falling "by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning," so the occasion for sending another to fill his station—"one mighty and strong to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints"—may also be considered as having passed away and the whole incident of the prophecy closed.

If, however, there are those who will still insist that the prophecy concerning the coming of "one mighty and strong" is still to be regarded as relating to the future, let the Latter-day Saints know that he will be a future bishop of the Church who will be with the Saints in Zion, Jackson County, Missouri, when the Lord shall establish them in that land; and he will be so blessed with the spirit and power of his calling that he will be able to set in order the house of God, pertaining to the department of the work under his jurisdiction; and in righteousness and justice will '"arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints." He will hold the same high and exalted station that Edward Partridge held; for the latter was called to do just this kind of work—that is, to set in order the house of God as pertaining to settling the Saints upon their inheritances, as will appear from the following passage: [Sec. 57:7, 15; 58:14, 17, quoted.]

This future bishop will also be called and appointed of God as Aaron of old, and as Edward Partridge was. He will be designated by the inspiration of the Lord, and will be accepted and sustained by the whole Church, as the law of God provides. His coming will not be the result of a wild, erratic movement, or the assumption of authority by a self-appointed egotist seeking power that he may lord it over the people; God's house is one of order, and admits of no such irregular procedure.

Certainly this prophecy does not allude in any way to any President of the Church, past, present, or to come. The revelation under consideration does not relate to matters that especially concern the duties of the President of the Church: but to the arranging "by lot the inheritances of the Saints," and that is the whole substance of the revelation, a matter distinctly placed under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of the Church. If it shall be urged that the phrase "to set in order the house of God," indicates a larger scope of action than that contemplated in settling the Saints upon their inheritances, the reasonable and sufficient answer is that the scope of this phrase should most certainly be interpreted by the whole subject of the revelation, and not the meaning of the revelation by the particular phrase. So that the phrase, "set in order the house of God" is limited to setting in order the house of God by arranging by lot the inheritances of the Saints.

In conclusion, we would say that the Latter-day Saints by this time, should be so well settled in the conviction that God has established His Church in the earth for the last time, to remain, and no more to be thrown down, or destroyed; and that God's house is a house of order, of law, of regularity, that erratic disturbers of that order of men of restless temperament, who, through ignorance and egotism became vain babblers, yet make great pretensions to prophetic powers and other spiritual graces and gifts, ought not to have any influence with them, nor ought the Saints to be disturbed in their spirit by such characters and their theories. The Church of Christ is with the Saints. It has committed to it the law of God for its own government and perpetuation. It possesses every means for the correction of every wrong or abuse or error which may from time to time arise, and that without anarchy, or even revolution; it can do it by processes of evolution—by development, by an increase of knowledge, wisdom, patience and charity.

The presiding quorums of the Church will always be composed of such men; they will be chosen in such manner, that the Saints can be assured that solid wisdom, righteousness, and conscientious adherence to duty, will characterize the policy of those who are entrusted with the administration of the affairs of the Church. While from time to time, as the work of the Lord may have need of their services, men of exceptional talents and abilities will develop among the people of God; and without disorder, or eruption, or excitement, they will be called of the Lord, through the appointed agencies of the Priesthood and Church authority, to positions that will afford them opportunity for service. They will be accepted by the Saints in the regular order, appointed by the law of the Church, just as Edward Partridge was called and accepted [Sec. 41:9] ; and just as the "one mighty and strong" will be called and accepted; when the time comes for his services. (IE, October 1907, 10:929-33, 936-43.)"

[JLHPROF]

thanks! Read this letter from the First Presidency from 1907, Presidents Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund and John R. Winder

 

Fair enough.  If that's the official interpretation then who am I to disagree.  (Still doesn't fit with what the actual scripture says in my opinion, but they are the First Presidency).

And I'm sure they issued this statement to prevent more mortal idiots from claiming they were the One Mighty And Strong.

[Duncan]

Fair enough.  If that's the official interpretation then who am I to disagree.  (Still doesn't fit with what the actual scripture says in my opinion, but they are the First Presidency).

And I'm sure they issued this statement to prevent more mortal idiots from claiming they were the One Mighty And Strong.

 

 

of which I am sure they have seen a few!

[Avatar4321]

Do we expect as latter day saints expect a prophet like Joseph Smith to be raised up prior to the coming of Christ? Obviously we believe Joseph to have opened the final gospel dispensation before "The End", but are we waiting on a "Forerunner" or "One Mighty and Strong" perhaps? Many will recognize that phrase from D&C 85 that has been used by many as a prophecy of their own divine mission to set in order the church. The question I am asking is, with all the folklore and prophecy of great future events within the church (New scriptures to come forth like the sealed portion and the book of Enoch, Large movements of people and city building like going back to Jackson, and possibly a rescue of the U.S. Constitution  ), are we holding out for a charismatic leader to find another seer stone and get us moving again, or do we expect things to pretty much go the way they have been going until...     ...when? Are we moving past our millenarianism of our younger years, and now are embracing the becoming of "a new world religion" that will be around for a few thousand years if all goes well? Your thoughts please...

 

 

PS. next time I will start a topic when its not 2 am and I can articulate my thoughts a bit better.

 

First, Seers are greater than prophets. Prophets can be found at the pulpit every fast sunday (other sundays too, just saying)

 

Second, We have a Seer like Joseph Smith. His name is Thomas Monson.