Does The Woman In A Temple Marriage Go Where The Man Goes After Judgement?

[Truth 101]

My mom is a very devout TBM. If she were to be judged today she would go to exhaltation, no doubt.

 

My dad however is a jack mormon who hasn't been to church or paid tithing since 2006. If he were judged my guess would be that he would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

 

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

 

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

[oremites]

I really hope it's the other way around, for my sake (I'm the man).

 

But no, it doesn't work like that.  Each person is judged/rewarded individually, but together can have an eternal marriage if both receive a Celestial glory.

[jaxenro]

I don't think it's as simple as that. Would your mom want to leave your dad behind? Although I would bless my wife if she progressed past me I would never leave her for my own progression.

[Duncan]

I think this is why we shouldn't put final judgements on each other as no one has all the information

[jaxenro]

"I think this is why we shouldn't put final judgements on each other as no one has all the information"

 

Well said
 

[Tacenda]

My mom is a very devout TBM. If she were to be judged today she would go to exhaltation, no doubt.

My dad however is a jack mormon who hasn't been to church or paid tithing since 2006. If he were judged my guess would be that he would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

This is the exact situation my parents were in before they passed. In my TBM days it upset me because I was thinking they would be separated. So good question. Edited March 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[Garden Girl]

I think this is why we shouldn't put final judgements on each other as no one has all the information

 

That's true... but... a woman who has lived righteously in spite of her spouse not doing so will not be relegated to a lesser glory just because the spouse is.  How fair would that be?  And who knows... perhaps her spouse was abusive also if only verbally or mentally because of his actions... I agree that each person is judged individually, and there must be some way for her to realize the blessings she has lived for...  without being dragged down because of a spouse.  If not, then her use of her agency to live righteously and choose the right is meaningless...

 

GG

Edited March 16, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Duncan]

That's true... but... a woman who has lived righteously in spite of her spouse not doing so will not be relegated to a lesser glory just because the spouse is.  How fair would that be?  And who knows... perhaps her spouse was abusive also if only verbally or mentally because of his actions... I agree that each person is judged individually, and there must be some way for her to realize the blessings she has lived for...  without being dragged down because of a spouse.  If not, then her use of her agency to live righteously and choose the right is meaningless...

 

GG

 

 

See, that's my Mum's situation. she has been a stalwart member of the Church for her 45 plus years membership, my Dad...not so much. I know an eency weency bit of my Dad's background and what he thinks about things but I think that's where faith comes in and I have to just trust in God's judgement

[CV75]

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

What will you truly, honestly do if the answer is "yes"?

[Garden Girl]

What will you truly, honestly do if the answer is "yes"?

 

I cannot believe that the answer would be yes...

Say I'm living a devout and faithful life in the Gospel... my spouse to whom I'm sealed, while a fairly good guy, has chosen to become inactive, i.e., not attending Church, nor following the WoW, and certainly not honoring our temple covenants of our sealing.  But because he's a pretty good guy I keep praying that he will have a change of heart and return to the Church.  I continue to pray and live righteously, keeping my covenants, choosing the right, fully living the gospel... always hopeful every day that something will change and hubby will come to his senses and return to Church and again honor our temple sealing, even though he is adamant that he does not want to change.

 

But, alas, in spite of my prayers, WHAM, he gets hit by a truck and is gone... his life is over... he exits without ever repenting, etc etc. 

Are you, CV75, actually suggesting that my life of using my agency and choosing to live a righteous gospel-centered life means absolutely nothing... that this man has the ability to pull me down with him??  According to your view(?) it would have been better for me to divorce the guy, request a sealing cancellation, and break up the home, and leave him behind so that I wouldn't be subject to "going where he goes." 

Rather, I would prefer to think that perhaps there is some way he could repent and go where I go.  At least that would be fair.  Anything else, to me, is unacceptable.

 

GG

Edited March 17, 2014 by Garden Girl

[mfbukowski]

NOBODY KNOWS.

 

THAT is the truth.  But if you believe in a just God, he will work it out.

 

Only God knows what is in your dad's heart, and we do believe in "second chances".  We believe we will be able to repent in the spirit world after we die, if we have honestly been deluded or confused by others.

 

We believe in a just God, therefore........ He will work it out.

Edited March 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

My mom is a very devout TBM. If she were to be judged today she would go to exhaltation, no doubt.

 

My dad however is a jack mormon who hasn't been to church or paid tithing since 2006. If he were judged my guess would be that he would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

 

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

 

A woman once wrote to Brigham Young: "President Young, my husband told me to go to hell.  What should I do?"

Brigham Young wrote back and said:  "Dear Sister, Don't go." 

[Tiki]

In the resurrection, the wife sealed in the Temple, can again choose, just as she did in this life, if she wants to be with her husband. If he was a knucklehead in this life, she doesn't have to. God is not unjust. Husbands take note. You had better keep your Covenants.

[rpn]

I agree that we do not know.   But temple sealing covenants are not effective until they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which doesn't happen on the day a couple is married in the temple, generally but when they have lived lives that have made them into people like He would have them be.  OTOH, some of the mistakes that people do on earth that are seen as epitome of non-churched, may not matter in judgment day.   And none of the laws that someone didn't really have are held against them.   

 

It is possible that the dh you describe is doing his personal best and quickly repenting.  Even if he falls far short himself, if he is doing that personal best and repenting, he may well be perfect in Christ.   So it is really dicey for someone who is further along on the spectrum of objective perfection to assume that someone who is not as far along as they, is more wicked than they.    The Lord judges on the heart and the intent and capability and not just on whether someone does the commandment list well or poorly. 

 

Although this isn't doctrine, it seems highly likely that those in the celestial kingdom will be able to travel to the other kingdoms.  After all Jesus and lots of heavenly messengers traveled to earth, a fallen place), so why couldn't they travel elsewhere.   Perhaps a part of the couple who kept her covenants will have freedom to interact with her loved ones even if those in the other kingdoms don't have that freedom to  travel or to retain relationships.

[juliann]

 

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

 

 

I'm really curious where you got the idea women have no choice or agency once they are sealed.     

[changed]

Here are some quotes about it:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/salvation-and-exaltation

 

 

ELDER RUSSELL M. NELSON

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter.

To be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the 

Resurrection

 of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.

To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm....

The development of faith in the Lord is an individual matter. Repentance is also an individual matter. Only as an individual can one be baptized and receive the 

Holy Ghost

. Each of us is born individually; likewise, each of us is “born again”

 

8

 

individually. Salvation is an individual matter.

 

Resurrection, or immortality, comes to every man and every woman as an unconditional gift.

Eternal life, or celestial glory or exaltation, is a conditional gift. Conditions of this gift have been established by the Lord, who said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.”

 

13

 

Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, 

baptism

, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple.

No man in this Church can obtain the highest degree of celestial glory without a worthy woman who is sealed to him.

 

14

 

This temple ordinance enables eventual exaltation for both of them.

Any discussion of family responsibilities to prepare for exaltation would be incomplete if we included only mother, father, and children. What about grandparents and other ancestors? The Lord has revealed that we cannot become perfect without them; neither can they without us be made perfect.

 

21

 

Sealing ordinances are essential to exaltation. A wife needs to be sealed to her husband; children need to be sealed to their parents; and we all need to be connected with our ancestors....

What about those who are not able to marry in this life or those who cannot be sealed to their parents in this life? We know that the Lord will judge each of us according to the desires of our hearts, as well as our works,

 

23

 

and that the blessings of exaltation will be given to all who are worthy.

 

24

 

Moses 7:42

• Pearl of Great Price

And Enoch also saw Noah, and his family; that the posterity of all the sons of Noah should be saved with a temporal salvation; 

Abraham 2:11

• Pearl of Great Price

...thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the... 

President Spencer W. Kimball said, “The family is the basic unit of the kingdom of God on earth” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1978, p. 67; orEnsign, May 1978, p. 45).

 

President Phillip Sonntag told this story about the time he was serving as a mission president in New Zealand. A new missionary told him that his family had been taught the gospel by missionaries while living in Scotland. Everyone had joined the Church but his father. The family later moved to Australia, where the young man grew up and was called on a mission.

When the young man was set apart, the stake president promised him that if he were faithful and worked hard while on his mission, his family would be unified in the gospel and would eventually be sealed in the temple. The young elder said he wanted that more than anything in the world.

In interviews with President Sonntag, the elder always asked, “President, am I a good missionary?” Finally, with three months of his mission left, the elder asked a different question, “President, why hasn’t my dad joined the Church?” President Sonntag assured him that the Lord would keep his promises. The elder said, “Well, then, I’m going to be a better missionary.” With tears streaming down his face, he added, “I’m going to work every waking hour so I can complete my part of the agreement.”

This he did, and he was instrumental in baptizing several families. The time passed quickly. One week before he left, the elders soon to be released were brought to the mission home for a special fireside with the mission president.

After the meeting the elder was very nervous and asked for another interview. President Sonntag took him into the bedroom, and the elder asked, “President, can I call my dad?” President Sonntag said yes.

The elder called two hours later, and his mother answered. After the excited greetings, the elder asked, “Mom, how is Dad?” His mother replied that she could see no change. After a pause, the elder said, “Let me talk to Dad.”

When the father came to the phone, the elder said, “Dad, I’ve worked as hard as I can, and I’ve been successful, but my mission means nothing to me if my own family is not united in the Church. So I challenge you to be baptized next Saturday when I get off the plane.”

There was a long wait, then the words, “Saturday, Son?”

“Yes, Dad. Saturday.”

Another long wait, then, “All right, my son. All right.”

The phone was hardly back on the hook when there was a shout for joy that nearly took the mission home roof off.

When the elder arrived at the airport the following Saturday, there was no one to meet him. Finally, the bishop arrived and assured him that everything was fine. They drove to the stake center, and when the bishop pushed back the door to the font, standing in his white clothes, already in the water, was his father. The elder put on his own white clothes, and with tears in his eyes, he raised his arm to the square and baptized his father.

They got dressed, and the elder confirmed his dad. Standing close by, the stake president said, “Elder, would you come into my office so I can release you as a missionary?”

Conclusion

Challenge

Explain that just as the missionary cared enough to do something to unite his family, so each young man can make a contribution to his own family.

Have each young man decide on something he will do to show he appreciates his family and wants it to be united.
https://www.lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-2/lesson-7-the-eternal-importance-of-families?lang=eng&query=salvation+of+families
 

Edited March 17, 2014 by changed

[Truth 101]

I'm really curious where you got the idea women have no choice or agency once they are sealed.     

Because the LDS faith is patriarchal and women have pretty much no say in what goes on and happens in the church. They have the relief society. That's about it.

 

That's why I don't understand why my mom is such a TBM in an organization that is run exclusively by men.

 

And that's coming from a man.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Truth 101

[changed]

Because the LDS faith is patriarchal and women have pretty much no say in what goes on and happens in the church. They have the relief society. That's about it.

 

That's why I don't understand why my mom is such a TBM in an organization that is run exclusively by men.

 

And that's coming from a man.

Not just your mom, there's more women in the church than men, but then God's ways are not man's ways - the greatest among you shall be your servant, many who are last will be first etc. etc.  Christians don't seek leadership, they seek humility, meekness etc.... it's not about being in "front" of others, it's about being "with" them.... 

That's the entire point of the celestial kingdom - that's the glory of it - to be "with" others.

Edited March 17, 2014 by changed

[Truth 101]

What will you truly, honestly do if the answer is "yes"?

 

I would point out that it is another flaw in the LDS faith as I see it.

 

I only asked because the Church is run exclusively by men, and also because since they're SEALED to each other they must end up in the same place? Or else sealings don't mean anything? 

Edited March 17, 2014 by Truth 101

[changed]

I would point out that it is another flaw in the LDS faith as I see it.

 

I only asked because the Church is run exclusively by men.

I have a question for you, who do you love more - those who have authority over you, those who "run" your life, or those who are there beside you?

Most people don't "love"  authority figures... those who "get it" don't seek to be authority figures.  You have to see things differently if you want to understand your mom... 

Edited March 17, 2014 by changed

[Truth 101]

Out of those three? Can't I have more choices than three?

 

The people I love most are the ones who I know who'll be there for me in times of need and who have my back, and I have theirs.

[changed]

Out of those three? Can't I have more choices than three?

 

The people I love most are the ones who I know who'll be there for me in times of need and who have my back, and I have theirs.

The people who are there for you are not "authority" figures, they are family and friends.... some of us women seek for family and friendship above authority, because the most important thing to us isn't power, it's love.

Love is the #1 commandment, and yes, the highest exaltation is a family affair, because heaven isn't heaven if your family isn't there with you.  Do you think that is evil of the LDS church to suggest that families are dependent on one another for their exaltation?  for their happiness?  Can you define/achieve happiness without including those you love?

PS - it doesn't matter if it's the man without the woman, or the woman without the man - or the parent without their children, or child without their parent - no one is in charge, everyone relies equally on one another being there together.

Edited March 17, 2014 by changed

[Calm]

Because the LDS faith is patriarchal and women have pretty much no say in what goes on and happens in the church. They have the relief society. That's about it.

 

That's why I don't understand why my mom is such a TBM in an organization that is run exclusively by men.

 

And that's coming from a man.

Stereotypes make it so easy to know one is right and others are wrong.

[Truth 101]

Stereotypes make it so easy to know one is right and others are wrong.

 

 

Well it is true, the church is run by only men.

[Truth 101]

The people who are there for you are not "authority" figures, they are family and friends.... some of us women seek for family and friendship above authority, because the most important thing to us isn't power, it's love.

Love is the #1 commandment, and yes, the highest exaltation is a family affair, because heaven isn't heaven if your family isn't there with you.  Do you think that is evil of the LDS church to suggest that families are dependent on one another for their exaltation?  for their happiness?  Can you define/achieve happiness without including those you love?

PS - it doesn't matter if it's the man without the woman, or the woman without the man - or the parent without their children, or child without their parent - no one is in charge, everyone relies equally on one another being there together.

 

I completely agree, whatever happens after this life I hope my loved ones are there with me.