Does The Woman In A Temple Marriage Go Where The Man Goes After Judgement?

[MorningStar]

No, women don't automatically go where their husbands go. 

[thesometimesaint]

Well it is true, the church is run by only men.

 

D&C 121:41-45.

41 No ^apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the ^bpriesthood, only by ^cpersuasion, by ^dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

 42 By ^akindness, and pure ^bknowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the ^csoul without ^dhypocrisy, and without ^eguile—

 43 ^aReproving betimes with ^bsharpness, when ^cmoved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of ^dlove toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

 44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of ^adeath.

 45 Let thy ^abowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let ^bvirtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy ^cconfidence wax strong in the ^dpresence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the ^edews from heaven.

 

[daz2]

There is an old story (I don't know of contemporaneus first hand corroboration) that Joseph Smith said he wanted to be with Emma in the hereafter, even if he had to go to Hell to find her.

 

I think the degrees of glory are as much a state of mind as a location.

 

While many or most LDS believe that family ties will not exist outside the Celestial Kingdom, I am not so sure.  I personally think that the sealing tie between a parent and child will exist no matter where or in what state the parent or child is in.  I also think that if a man and woman want to continue there sealing connection through all eternity that they can, no matter if one of them is, for a time or for a long time or forever, in a location or state of Hell or a lower "kingdom" of glory.

 

But ultimately, neither spouse is compelled to go where the other is or will be.  Sealed or not sealed.

 

And, yes, I agree that the church is ultimately governed by males (hopefully with inspiration from above), in terms of ultimate decisionmaking power.

 

It used to be that most people thought that is the way families should be run also--that the male had the "final word at home" (as Tevye said in Fiddler on the Roof).   And people thought the same way in the Church (although using the term "preside").  But the rhetoric of church leaders (including the male ones), and more recently the emphasis has been on the man and woman being full and equal partners in presiding and governing in the home. 

 

Hopefully, we will see a similar evolution in ecclesiastical governance.  I believe that we will.

[Scott Lloyd]

My mom is a very devout TBM. If she were to be judged today she would go to exhaltation, no doubt.

 

My dad however is a jack mormon who hasn't been to church or paid tithing since 2006. If he were judged my guess would be that he would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

 

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

 

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

The notion is absurd that a just God would require a celestial-worthy soul to be held back by a spouse who had been less-worthy in mortality.

[Rob Osborn]

My mom is a very devout TBM. If she were to be judged today she would go to exhaltation, no doubt.

 

My dad however is a jack mormon who hasn't been to church or paid tithing since 2006. If he were judged my guess would be that he would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

 

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

 

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

This is the one area that I believe the church has wrong- different worlds of glory. My personal research has led me to a ver very extremelt firm firm (did I stress that enough?) Belief that there is only one world of glory and all of the saved go to that one place to live with each other as a family. The telestial and terrestrial worlds are just this earth in its progression towards the celestial.

[mfbukowski]

Now now, my parents took care of my grandparents when they were old, we will take care of our parents when they are old, and I expect that my kids will take care of us.  Love is demonstrated and recognized through sacrifice, we do tend to love those who love us first.

And I am sure those old folks "have your back", right?

 

Only loving someone who "has your back" is pure selfishness.

[mfbukowski]

This is the one area that I believe the church has wrong- different worlds of glory. My personal research has led me to a ver very extremelt firm firm (did I stress that enough?) Belief that there is only one world of glory and all of the saved go to that one place to live with each other as a family. The telestial and terrestrial worlds are just this earth in its progression towards the celestial.

Mr Rob, I respect you more every day.

[JLHPROF]

This is the one area that I believe the church has wrong- different worlds of glory. My personal research has led me to a ver very extremelt firm firm (did I stress that enough?) Belief that there is only one world of glory and all of the saved go to that one place to live with each other as a family. The telestial and terrestrial worlds are just this earth in its progression towards the celestial.

 

That's a nice thought - scripture (not the church) disagrees.  So I am forced to disagree too.

However, I do agree that Telestial and Terrestrial will continue to progress upward (I don't hold to McConikie's teachings).

[Truth 101]

So your love is conditional on someone elses ability to provide for you? To "have your back"?

Yup. Absolutely

[JLHPROF]

No, women don't automatically go where their husbands go. 

 

Very true.

 

If we believe the scriptures we go where we merit (with grace applied).  Only those who achieve exaltation maintain the marriage relationship.  Those who don't will not have a marriage in the next life anyway.

Now if one partner achieves exaltation level and the other falls away there are really two schools of thought:

1. The exalted partner can secure the lesser partner's eventual exaltation (see Joseph & Emma and some other sporadic teachings).

2. The exalted partner will choose a new eternal companion worthy of them.

 

How that all works (as many here have said) is up to God to determine, but he is bound by eternal laws.

[Truth 101]

That's a nice thought - scripture (not the church) disagrees.  So I am forced to disagree too.

However, I do agree that Telestial and Terrestrial will continue to progress upward (I don't hold to McConikie's teachings).

That's an interesting thought, I would think that the two worlds or lesser glory would probably be able to obtain celestial glory. I think that what god/theuniverse/probability/whateveritis probably transcends to a higher plane of thinking and reality when we get to were it/they is/are.

[JLHPROF]

That's an interesting thought, I would think that the two worlds or lesser glory would probably be able to obtain celestial glory. I think that what god/theuniverse/probability/whateveritis probably transcends to a higher plane of thinking and reality when we get to were it/they is/are.

 

Except for the "whateveritis" bit, you sound a little like Joseph Smith there...he taught that when we get to where God is that God moves onto a higher exaltation (and again, unlike McConkie, I think that entails more than an increase in dominion).

[bluebell]

Yup. Absolutely

 

Do you not believe in unconditional love? 

[Tacenda]

I am not clear what you mean.

I have the hope the Millennium WILL give families the chance to sort it all out.  The whole of Creation is about families.  Not that it stops people from war, or molesting women or preventing children a mortal body or any other of the  appalling things humans do to one another. It makes God weep.  The Plan does not start nor end at the temple altar.  The plan started before humans had physical bodies.The Plan affords everyone the opportunity to progress and return.  One third opted out before they ever got any where .Even humans who are sealed opt out all the time.  Their families will not be held hostage to their decisions.  Everyone who has endured to the end will be honored for it.

 

Indeed the goal is that families will be sealed forever. But those who chose otherwise will not be forced to live in a state they refused to honor.  My personal scenario went awry when I married later in life never thinking we would have children. Do I have some  sadness that these children are not sealed to me? Absolutely.  But far worse for them is their walking away from the Light.  In the meantime, I am soldiering on and hoping my efforts will bear fruit so that the family I chose will be together. But if they fail to honor their covenants, I have the hope of at least some solace from God's choices offered me at the Judgment Bar.

I'm not satisfied with this, but if you are, great.  I mean that sincerely.     

[cinepro]

 

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

 

The best thing to do is to just do what all the other LDS (including the leaders) do and make up whatever makes you feel best and think that because that's what a "just" or "fair" God would do, that must be what God will do.

 

With that in mind, I think that in situations like the one you described God will fashion a fully functional (in every sense) eternal robot that looks exactly like your resurrected father, and has all of his personality and memories implanted.  Your mother will spend the rest of eternity with this robot, and after several thousand Earth-years your mom will forget that it is a replica and there won't be any difference.  That seems totally fair and just to me, so that must be what God will do.

[Calm]

 

 

Sorry but I can't see it like that. I'm not stating that the women is judged by her husbands actions as I don't believe that. Just that I couldn't leave my spouse behind to acheive a higher degree of glory. It stands against everything I understand a husband and father to be. But I would sacrifice my own salvation if it would allow her to acheive hers

i would think that is more of a personal choice.  If you desire more to be with your wife than in the Celestial Kingdom with God, surely that demonstrates what is most important to you and God will surely respect that choice as he would respect your wife's.  But that doesn't mean that you have in someway earned exaltation.  How can you "earn" the greatest gift God can give by refusing it?

 

And I don't see how forcing someone to be saved by giving up one's own salvation for them does them any favours since they didn't want to be saved in the first place (if they did, they would be saved as God grants us the desires of our hearts).

 

It reminds me of the Gifts of the Magi story where each gave up their most treasured possession in order to buy the other something that honoured their treasure.  It was all very sweet about ultimate love and all that, but in the end it was purposeless…they would have both been happier if they had simply communicated their love with each other and not given an unasked for sacrifice.

[thesometimesaint]

That's a nice thought - scripture (not the church) disagrees.  So I am forced to disagree too.

However, I do agree that Telestial and Terrestrial will continue to progress upward (I don't hold to McConikie's teachings).

 

I'm more in line with McConkie on this one. Yes the Telestrial, and Terrestrial Kingdoms do progress, but so does the Celestial Kingdom. They NEVER stop progressing. They never catch up with each other. It is Eternal Progression type thing.

[JLHPROF]

I'm more in line with McConkie on this one. Yes the Telestrial, and Terrestrial Kingdoms do progress, but so does the Celestial Kingdom. They NEVER stop progressing. They never catch up with each other. It is Eternal Progression type thing.

 

I 100% agree that the Terrestrial Kingdom never catches up with the Celestial Kingdom.  However, I do believe that the Terrestrial Kingdom can reach a point of celestialization (at which point the Celestial Kingdom will have progressed further - higher order of kingdoms as the scripture calls it).

I simply cannot accept that those in the Terrestrial Kingdom cannot move beyond a terrestrial level to a celestial level eternities without end.  I find that to be unscriptural and illogical.

[Rob Osborn]

From Logic class 101:

 

1. Anyone who ever has any chance of being saved from hell will have to repent of all sin and be cleansed from all sin in the waters of baptism. Thus, all being clean, we return to the same state we were in when we left heaven with God before we came here. Only one thing keeps us from the Fathers presence in Hios kingdom- our sins. So, if we are all clean as the scriptures state all of the saved will be, then there is thus nothing preventing us from returning to our Heavenly father's presence within his kingdom.

 

2. Anyone who repents and comes to baptism to be saved enters into covenants that they will be obedient to all that God commands them to do. This is the one gate that one enters and the one path one follows to find salvation. There is no other means that will save man eternally from hell. If all are on the same path then all are progressing towards the same destination. This is what we call the plan of salvation. It has only one set of rules, one gate to enter, and only one path leading to only one destination. The "fold" of Christ is just that- one fold and he being the one shepherd. Christ is in the process of bringing the lost to the gate and placing them on the path that teaches and leads to perfection. This is a step by step process similar to climbing the rungs of a ladder.

 

3. The temple endowment is the clearest explanation (and most up to date) of how one who finds the gate (repentance and baptism) and enters the path that leads to the fullest exaltation. It is the plan of salvation. Anyone who has even ever walked through a temple open house will be told the truths about the world room being the telestial kingdom, the middles room being the terrestrial kingdom and the third room being the celestial kingdom. A person starts in the world room or the telestial kingdom (we now are in the telestial kingdom) and learns line upon line until he is ready to enter the terrestrial kingdom. The terrestrial kingdom is the earth when the Savior returns. During this time on earth we learn further truths and continue our perfection until all have been made spotless. At the end of the millennium all of the wheat will be stored in the garners (all the names of the sanctified will be saved in the temples in the records and holy books) while the tares are left to be burned (sons of perdition). At this point the Savior presents the "kingdom" (singular- as one flock) spotless to the Father.

 

4. If all are perfected and made spotless and presented as the "kingdom" tot he Father at the end of the millennium there will be no further sorting of individuals as all are receiving the same gift at this point- that of eternal life. It is at this point that the one path of salvation has led to the one destination- the kingdom of heaven. Then at this point the Father and Son sit on their thrones within this one kingdom never to go out anymore. All of the saved dwell here in this one place and walk in the light of the Lamb forever and ever. Outside the gates to this one kingdom are only the ones who cannot come in- the sons of perdition. (See last three chapters of Revelations).

[JLHPROF]

From Logic class 101:

 

1. Anyone who ever has any chance of being saved from hell will have to repent of all sin and be cleansed from all sin in the waters of baptism. Thus, all being clean, we return to the same state we were in when we left heaven with God before we came here. Only one thing keeps us from the Fathers presence in Hios kingdom- our sins. So, if we are all clean as the scriptures state all of the saved will be, then there is thus nothing preventing us from returning to our Heavenly father's presence within his kingdom.

 

YEP.  I can agree with all of this.  (Just to be clear, we are talking about salvation in God's kingdom, not necessarily exaltation).

 

2. Anyone who repents and comes to baptism to be saved enters into covenants that they will be obedient to all that God commands them to do. This is the one gate that one enters and the one path one follows to find salvation. There is no other means that will save man eternally from hell. If all are on the same path then all are progressing towards the same destination. This is what we call the plan of salvation. It has only one set of rules, one gate to enter, and only one path leading to only one destination. The "fold" of Christ is just that- one fold and he being the one shepherd. Christ is in the process of bringing the lost to the gate and placing them on the path that teaches and leads to perfection. This is a step by step process similar to climbing the rungs of a ladder.

 

So far so good.

 

3. The temple endowment is the clearest explanation (and most up to date) of how one who finds the gate (repentance and baptism) and enters the path that leads to the fullest exaltation. It is the plan of salvation. Anyone who has even ever walked through a temple open house will be told the truths about the world room being the telestial kingdom, the middles room being the terrestrial kingdom and the third room being the celestial kingdom. A person starts in the world room or the telestial kingdom (we now are in the telestial kingdom) and learns line upon line until he is ready to enter the terrestrial kingdom. The terrestrial kingdom is the earth when the Savior returns. During this time on earth we learn further truths and continue our perfection until all have been made spotless. At the end of the millennium all of the wheat will be stored in the garners (all the names of the sanctified will be saved in the temples in the records and holy books) while the tares are left to be burned (sons of perdition). At this point the Savior presents the "kingdom" (singular- as one flock) spotless to the Father.

 

I was with you until: "At the end of the millennium all of the wheat will be stored in the garners (all the names of the sanctified will be saved in the temples in the records and holy books) while the tares are left to be burned (sons of perdition). At this point the Savior presents the "kingdom" (singular- as one flock) spotless to the Father."

 

I see no scriptural evidence that at the end of the Millennium that there are only Celestial beings & Sons of Perdition.  God presents the family of man who will not be destroyed (Sons of Perdition) to God but there is no evidence I've seen that everyone left who wasn't destroyed will be Celestial in their natures.  All men who receive a resurrection, any resurrection and eternal life no matter which kingdom are Christ's inheritance.  Hence "none are lost except the sons of perdition".  But there will still be many who choose by their agency not to accept Christ as their Lord and will thus be Telestially resurrected, and there will still be many at the end of the millennium who will choose to accept Christ but not the higher laws of the Gospel and be terrestrially resurrected.

 

To my mind your model implies that men will somehow lose their religious agency and be forced to be either perdition or follow the fullness of the Gospel requirements.  I see no reason to believe that.

 

4. If all are perfected and made spotless and presented as the "kingdom" tot he Father at the end of the millennium there will be no further sorting of individuals as all are receiving the same gift at this point- that of eternal life. It is at this point that the one path of salvation has led to the one destination- the kingdom of heaven. Then at this point the Father and Son sit on their thrones within this one kingdom never to go out anymore. All of the saved dwell here in this one place and walk in the light of the Lamb forever and ever. Outside the gates to this one kingdom are only the ones who cannot come in- the sons of perdition. (See last three chapters of Revelations).

 

I disagree with this.  Salvation (or being saved) refers to being resurrected.  The D&C tells us that there are 3 levels of resurrection, that one can be resurrected with a telestial glory, that one can be resurrected with a terrestrial glory, or a celestial glory.  I don't find your conclusion scriptural.  You appear to be equating salvation with entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, and that is just not correct in my opinion.

 

[thesometimesaint]

I 100% agree that the Terrestrial Kingdom never catches up with the Celestial Kingdom.  However, I do believe that the Terrestrial Kingdom can reach a point of celestialization (at which point the Celestial Kingdom will have progressed further - higher order of kingdoms as the scripture calls it).

I simply cannot accept that those in the Terrestrial Kingdom cannot move beyond a terrestrial level to a celestial level eternities without end.  I find that to be unscriptural and illogical.

 

Yet we are told that each is Resurrected to a specific Kingdom. Once in that Kingdom we don't die again to get a new body.

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

[JLHPROF]

Yet we are told that each is Resurrected to a specific Kingdom. Once in that Kingdom we don't die again to get a new body.

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

 

One doesn't have to die to get a new body.  All resurrected bodies are composed of refined but immortal matter.  There is nothing preventing that refinement from continuing.  There is not a different level of immortal matter.  Just as a mortal body can be more or less pure and refined, so can an immortal one.

 

Think of the difference between a terrestrial resurrected immortal body and a celestial resurrected immortal body as analagous

to a smokers/drinkers/drug addicts mortal body versus a healthy/fit/physcially clean mortal body.  The glory they receive is due to the purity within.  If they continue to purify themselves their glory would increase.

 

One is not resurrected into a terrestrial body and stuck there because they can't die again and be resurrected into a celestial body, at least, that's my opinion since there is not revelation to the contrary.  God's work is to exalt as many of his children as he can and make us like him.  I don't see why he should give up that work forever just because we die - why else would the celestial beings continue to minister to the terrestrial beings?  The same reason we minister as missionaries to those who haven't found the gospel yet.  To help them progress.

[DJBrown]

My mom is a very devout TBM. If she were to be judged today she would go to exhaltation, no doubt.

 

My dad however is a jack mormon who hasn't been to church or paid tithing since 2006. If he were judged my guess would be that he would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

 

It is my understanding that where the man goes, the woman goes with him if they've been sealed. Which my parents have. They were sealed in the temple in 1985 and my dad served a mission in Fresno, CA from 1978-1980. So if my dad goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom, doesn't that mean my mom goes with him, even though she has lived a completely righteous life?

 

This is a true, honest question I have, no ill intentions.

 

 

Every saving ordinance involves a covenant between the individual and God.  This includes the ordinance of sealing or eternal marriage.  If two people enter that covenant worthily and one of the two ends up falling short of exaltation, the other, who has been faithful, will have the full blessings of exaltation.

 

The counsel from the brethren when a couple is divorcing in the context of abuse or serial adultery, etc. is that the faithful person from the couple not have the sealing canceled.  To do so removes the covenants and promises associated with the sealing.  As love as the faithful spouse keeps his or her covenants, he or she is entitled to the full blessings associated with the covenant.  

 

So, it ultimately doesn't matter which kingdom or place one spouse spends eternity.  Covenants are individual, and God keeps His promises.

[Rob Osborn]

From Logic class 101:

 

1. Anyone who ever has any chance of being saved from hell will have to repent of all sin and be cleansed from all sin in the waters of baptism. Thus, all being clean, we return to the same state we were in when we left heaven with God before we came here. Only one thing keeps us from the Fathers presence in Hios kingdom- our sins. So, if we are all clean as the scriptures state all of the saved will be, then there is thus nothing preventing us from returning to our Heavenly father's presence within his kingdom.

 

YEP.  I can agree with all of this.  (Just to be clear, we are talking about salvation in God's kingdom, not necessarily exaltation).

 

2. Anyone who repents and comes to baptism to be saved enters into covenants that they will be obedient to all that God commands them to do. This is the one gate that one enters and the one path one follows to find salvation. There is no other means that will save man eternally from hell. If all are on the same path then all are progressing towards the same destination. This is what we call the plan of salvation. It has only one set of rules, one gate to enter, and only one path leading to only one destination. The "fold" of Christ is just that- one fold and he being the one shepherd. Christ is in the process of bringing the lost to the gate and placing them on the path that teaches and leads to perfection. This is a step by step process similar to climbing the rungs of a ladder.

 

So far so good.

 

3. The temple endowment is the clearest explanation (and most up to date) of how one who finds the gate (repentance and baptism) and enters the path that leads to the fullest exaltation. It is the plan of salvation. Anyone who has even ever walked through a temple open house will be told the truths about the world room being the telestial kingdom, the middles room being the terrestrial kingdom and the third room being the celestial kingdom. A person starts in the world room or the telestial kingdom (we now are in the telestial kingdom) and learns line upon line until he is ready to enter the terrestrial kingdom. The terrestrial kingdom is the earth when the Savior returns. During this time on earth we learn further truths and continue our perfection until all have been made spotless. At the end of the millennium all of the wheat will be stored in the garners (all the names of the sanctified will be saved in the temples in the records and holy books) while the tares are left to be burned (sons of perdition). At this point the Savior presents the "kingdom" (singular- as one flock) spotless to the Father.

 

I was with you until: "At the end of the millennium all of the wheat will be stored in the garners (all the names of the sanctified will be saved in the temples in the records and holy books) while the tares are left to be burned (sons of perdition). At this point the Savior presents the "kingdom" (singular- as one flock) spotless to the Father."

 

I see no scriptural evidence that at the end of the Millennium that there are only Celestial beings & Sons of Perdition.  God presents the family of man who will not be destroyed (Sons of Perdition) to God but there is no evidence I've seen that everyone left who wasn't destroyed will be Celestial in their natures.  All men who receive a resurrection, any resurrection and eternal life no matter which kingdom are Christ's inheritance.  Hence "none are lost except the sons of perdition".  But there will still be many who choose by their agency not to accept Christ as their Lord and will thus be Telestially resurrected, and there will still be many at the end of the millennium who will choose to accept Christ but not the higher laws of the Gospel and be terrestrially resurrected.

 

To my mind your model implies that men will somehow lose their religious agency and be forced to be either perdition or follow the fullness of the Gospel requirements.  I see no reason to believe that.

 

4. If all are perfected and made spotless and presented as the "kingdom" tot he Father at the end of the millennium there will be no further sorting of individuals as all are receiving the same gift at this point- that of eternal life. It is at this point that the one path of salvation has led to the one destination- the kingdom of heaven. Then at this point the Father and Son sit on their thrones within this one kingdom never to go out anymore. All of the saved dwell here in this one place and walk in the light of the Lamb forever and ever. Outside the gates to this one kingdom are only the ones who cannot come in- the sons of perdition. (See last three chapters of Revelations).

 

I disagree with this.  Salvation (or being saved) refers to being resurrected.  The D&C tells us that there are 3 levels of resurrection, that one can be resurrected with a telestial glory, that one can be resurrected with a terrestrial glory, or a celestial glory.  I don't find your conclusion scriptural.  You appear to be equating salvation with entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, and that is just not correct in my opinion.

There are scriptures to back up all of which I stated. Salvation refers to being saved in the kingdom of heaven. All of the saved will be saved into the Celestial Kingdom (see Revelations). Christ does present the entire kingdom to the Father as "spotless" at the end of the millennium. This means that they all are washed clean through accepting Christ and repenting from all sins and being baptized. There is no other way to be saved from hell outside of this simple criteria.

[Rob Osborn]

Those who have been resurrected to this point have been resurrected with a telestial glory. When Christ comes they will be quickened into a terrestrial body and then finally at the end of the millennium they will be quickened into a celestial body.