Does The Woman In A Temple Marriage Go Where The Man Goes After Judgement?

[mfbukowski]

In the resurrection, the wife sealed in the Temple, can again choose, just as she did in this life, if she wants to be with her husband. If he was a knucklehead in this life, she doesn't have to. God is not unjust. Husbands take note. You had better keep your Covenants.

On the other hand maybe he won't be a knucklehead on the other side.

 

I imagine dying can be a "wake up call" and after all, "every knee shall bow".....

[mfbukowski]

Because the LDS faith is patriarchal and women have pretty much no say in what goes on and happens in the church. They have the relief society. That's about it.

 

That's why I don't understand why my mom is such a TBM in an organization that is run exclusively by men.

 

And that's coming from a man.

Men and women are equals with different jobs.

 

Pretend one is a doctor and one is a lawyer.  The lawyer gets to interpret laws, the doctor gets to take care of people.

 

Lawyers don't tell doctors what to do- they discuss things in their interactions and come to an agreement.  Neither bosses the other around.

 

Each of us as citizens are equals, but people in congress may have more authority than we personally do.  Most people in congress are lawyers, and usually in higher political office, they are also lawyers.

 

So in this analogy, men are the lawyers, women are the doctors, and congress people are church leaders.

 

Nobody gets to boss anybody around, nobody is better than anybody, but all have different jobs.

 

And that comes from a man too- one who has been happily sealed to his sweetheart for 35 years and is looking forward to a few billion years more.

[Calm]

Well it is true, the church is run by only men.

Absolutely….there are no positions whatsoever where a woman is allowed to make a decision or lead or teach in the Church.  Only men hold such positions.

[Calm]

Men and women are equals with different jobs.

 

Pretend one is a doctor and one is a lawyer.  The lawyer gets to interpret laws, the doctor gets to take care of people.

 

Lawyers don't tell doctors what to do- they discuss things in their interactions and come to an agreement.  Neither bosses the other around.

 

Each of us as citizens are equals, but people in congress may have more authority than we personally do.  Most people in congress are lawyers, and usually in higher political office, they are also lawyers.

 

So in this analogy, men are the lawyers, women are the doctors, and congress people are church leaders.

 

Nobody gets to boss anybody around, nobody is better than anybody, but all have different jobs.

 

And that comes from a man too- one who has been happily sealed to his sweetheart for 35 years and is looking forward to a few billion years more.

Please context and nuance is so boring and confusing.  Better to dispense with it all together.

[mfbukowski]

Out of those three? Can't I have more choices than three?

 

The people I love most are the ones who I know who'll be there for me in times of need and who have my back, and I have theirs.

You don't have kids.  They are never there for you, don't ever have your back in times of need.

 

They are bundles of need and give nothing in return, except cuteness because they have big eyes and we are programmed to find that "cute".

 

I suggest you need another model of who you love most before you are a dad.

[mfbukowski]

nevermind

Edited March 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

nevermind

[mfbukowski]

Please context and nuance is so boring and confusing.  Better to dispense with it all together.

It's not a video game where you are either dead or alive, blue or green, winner or loser

Edited March 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

Well it is true, the church is run by only men.

 

And any man who tries to run it is going to hell. If they attempt to usurp God then they will fall.

[jaxenro]

Out of those three? Can't I have more choices than three?

 

The people I love most are the ones who I know who'll be there for me in times of need and who have my back, and I have theirs.

 

So your love is conditional on someone elses ability to provide for you? To "have your back"?

[busybee]

Eternal marriages have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be "valid". This can only be done if both parties are keeping their covenants. So if I, as the wife, am keeping my covenants, and my husband is not, we are effectively, not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. The sealing ordinance is a physical ordinance, like baptism, that needs to be performed while on earth. Sounds confusing I know, but this is why it is vital that we not only make covenants, but keep them.

 

Throughout my life, I'm sure, there have been times when my sealing blessings were not in effect, ie not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, because I was not upholding my end of the covenant. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is not a once off thing, it is dependent on our worthiness at any given time

 

D&C 82:10  I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

 

So sad as it is, your parents sealing cannot be effective if only your Mom is keeping her covenants. She will never be denied exaltation because your Dad didn't keep his covenants

[jaxenro]

Eternal marriages have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be "valid". This can only be done if both parties are keeping their covenants. So if I, as the wife, am keeping my covenants, and my husband is not, we are effectively, not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. The sealing ordinance is a physical ordinance, like baptism, that needs to be performed while on earth. Sounds confusing I know, but this is why it is vital that we not only make covenants, but keep them.

 

Throughout my life, I'm sure, there have been times when my sealing blessings were not in effect, ie not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, because I was not upholding my end of the covenant. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is not a once off thing, it is dependent on our worthiness at any given time

 

D&C 82:10  I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

 

So sad as it is, your parents sealing cannot be effective if only your Mom is keeping her covenants. She will never be denied exaltation because your Dad didn't keep his covenants

 

Yet would you want exaltation without your spose or children, if neither keep the covenants?

 

For example if my wife is unable to keep her covenants should I then go on and say to her "sorry you didn't measure up"? What would that say about me as a person who would leave behind the one I promised to always love and care for? For time and eternity?

 

Sorry but I can't see it like that. I'm not stating that the women is judged by her husbands actions as I don't believe that. Just that I couldn't leave my spouse behind to acheive a higher degree of glory. It stands against everything I understand a husband and father to be. But I would sacrifice my own salvation if it would allow her to acheive hers

[CV75]

I cannot believe that the answer would be yes...

Me neither. It was a "what if" question.

[CV75]

I would point out that it is another flaw in the LDS faith as I see it.

 

I only asked because the Church is run exclusively by men, and also because since they're SEALED to each other they must end up in the same place? Or else sealings don't mean anything? 

You have already concluded that the faith is flawed, so what will you do since the answer is “No”? If you’ve already truly, honestly concluded the faith is flawed, why even ask? What does the Church being run by men have to do with sealings and their meaning -- they can't mean anything to you, having concluded the faith is flawed.

[changed]

You don't have kids.  They are never there for you, don't ever have your back in times of need.

 

They are bundles of need and give nothing in return, except cuteness because they have big eyes and we are programmed to find that "cute".

 

I suggest you need another model of who you love most before you are a dad.

Now now, my parents took care of my grandparents when they were old, we will take care of our parents when they are old, and I expect that my kids will take care of us.  Love is demonstrated and recognized through sacrifice, we do tend to love those who love us first.

[jaxenro]

You have already concluded that the faith is flawed, so what will you do since the answer is “No”? If you’ve already truly, honestly concluded the faith is flawed, why even ask? What does the Church being run by men have to do with sealings and their meaning -- they can't mean anything to you, having concluded the faith is flawed.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He is asking honest questions and repeating what he knows. Seems like there's a lot of Christian tolerance on thd board for gays, sinners, women who want to be ordained, practically everyone except those we disagree with. Then it's free game to criticize and belittle them.

[Tacenda]

Eternal marriages have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be "valid". This can only be done if both parties are keeping their covenants. So if I, as the wife, am keeping my covenants, and my husband is not, we are effectively, not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. The sealing ordinance is a physical ordinance, like baptism, that needs to be performed while on earth. Sounds confusing I know, but this is why it is vital that we not only make covenants, but keep them.

Throughout my life, I'm sure, there have been times when my sealing blessings were not in effect, ie not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, because I was not upholding my end of the covenant. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is not a once off thing, it is dependent on our worthiness at any given time

D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

So sad as it is, your parents sealing cannot be effective if only your Mom is keeping her covenants. She will never be denied exaltation because your Dad didn't keep his covenants

So would she have to leave said husband and join another in order to receive exaltation? You left us hanging there...not that I'm really going to believe this.

ETA: Makes temple marriage a scary prospect, separated from your husband and probably some children. Maybe joining a polygamist union, then creating billions of spirits. With someone you may not really love. That is so not heaven to me. And in LDS theology her husband would still see Jesus.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[XXMikey007]

Cor 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

 

A marital relationship will only exist in the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom.  If your mother “chooses” to be “with” your father in any other, they will not have a marital relationship.  If your mother chooses the Celestial Kingdom then she will be with another partner of her own free will and choosing.  Heaven is a place of ultimate joy and happiness.  And happiness is not being consigned to a partner who you don’t want to be with.  That would be hell wouldn’t it, and quite frankly many will actually choose it.

 

Remember it’s all about choice, and ordinances do mean nothing if we don’t live up to our promises.

[jana at jade house]

What no one has mentioned is the Millennium, about during which we only know for certain that Jesus will reign.  The Millennium gives unsealed to anyone but faithful to death persons the hope that their spouses, inactive children, mothers, fathers will come back to full faith and the sealing powers will be bestowed so that they can be together in eternity.  But as Joseph once said, the attitude one has at death is very likely the attitude one has for eternity.

 

 For instance, I cannot imagine an eternity without my sterling but totally atheist husband, and my once so spiritual now lapsed son.  It isn't over until the final judgment.  There is a lot that can and will happen before then. I believe many things will be put right in the Millennium.  However, I also know that if I am fit and faithful there may be a a solution that will be absolutely everything the Father has promised to his faithful.  If my son and husband are not willing to progress and accept the Gospel and all it is, then I will not be punished for it.  

 

I think that God has figured out how to live in eternity without some of his loved ones- a whole third of them followed Lucifer right out of the Plan.  Thus, by some means we do not know, He heals that wound for us.

 

It's what gives me hope.

[Tacenda]

What no one has mentioned is the Millennium, about during which we only know for certain that Jesus will reign. The Millennium gives unsealed to anyone but faithful to death persons the hope that their spouses, inactive children, mothers, fathers will come back to full faith and the sealing powers will be bestowed so that they can be together in eternity. But as Joseph once said, the attitude one has at death is very likely the attitude one has for eternity.

For instance, I cannot imagine an eternity without my sterling but totally atheist husband, and my once so spiritual now lapsed son. It isn't over until the final judgment. There is a lot that can and will happen before then. I believe many things will be put right in the Millennium. However, I also know that if I am fit and faithful there may be a a solution that will be absolutely everything the Father has promised to his faithful. If my son and husband are not willing to progress and accept the Gospel and all it is, then I will not be punished for it.

I think that God has figured out how to live in eternity without some of his loved ones- a whole third of them followed Lucifer right out of the Plan. Thus, by some means we do not know, He heals that wound for us.

It's what gives me hope.

Temple marriage is about families? Not in this scenario!!

[rodheadlee]

Temple marriage is about families? Not in this scenario!!

You say that like it's God's fault or the Church's fault. What would you suggest?

[bluebell]

Temple marriage is about families? Not in this scenario!!

 

The church's teachings are that if someone does not want the blessings that God has to offer (be them salvation, an eternal family, or whatever else) then He will not force them.

 

That is the scenario that Jana is relating.  

 

What exactly do you disagree with?

[jana at jade house]

 

 

Temple marriage is about families? Not in this scenario!!

I am not clear what you mean.

I have the hope the Millennium WILL give families the chance to sort it all out.  The whole of Creation is about families.  Not that it stops people from war, or molesting women or preventing children a mortal body or any other of the  appalling things humans do to one another. It makes God weep.  The Plan does not start nor end at the temple altar.  The plan started before humans had physical bodies.The Plan affords everyone the opportunity to progress and return.  One third opted out before they ever got any where .Even humans who are sealed opt out all the time.  Their families will not be held hostage to their decisions.  Everyone who has endured to the end will be honored for it.

 

Indeed the goal is that families will be sealed forever. But those who chose otherwise will not be forced to live in a state they refused to honor.  My personal scenario went awry when I married later in life never thinking we would have children. Do I have some  sadness that these children are not sealed to me? Absolutely.  But far worse for them is their walking away from the Light.  In the meantime, I am soldiering on and hoping my efforts will bear fruit so that the family I chose will be together. But if they fail to honor their covenants, I have the hope of at least some solace from God's choices offered me at the Judgment Bar.

[bluebell]

Because the LDS faith is patriarchal and women have pretty much no say in what goes on and happens in the church. They have the relief society. That's about it.

 

That's why I don't understand why my mom is such a TBM in an organization that is run exclusively by men.

 

And that's coming from a man.

 

Can you honestly not think of any scenario where one gender can preside in an organization and yet that organization can still be fair to both genders?  You seem to be very black and white in your thinking on this-Patriarchal must be harmful to women.

 

Maybe your mother understands something about the church that you don't.  

[ERayR]

I would point out that it is another flaw in the LDS faith as I see it.

 

I only asked because the Church is run exclusively by men, and also because since they're SEALED to each other they must end up in the same place? Or else sealings don't mean anything? 

 

You have reached some faulty conclusions therefore I would conclude your initial premise must be incorrect.