Ssm And Church "moral" Activism In Political And Judicial Forums

[USU78]

I don't think I need to find all that to support my assertion that gays are persecuted. This should suffice:

 

http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/bullying_sexual_orientation.page

 

And yet it doesn't.

 

My just graduated from USU in Psych daughter did similar work, yet found no particular evidence of endemic or significant persecution, just like this link of yours.

 

And you have still not answered my call for authorities in support of your assertions, both explicit and implicit.

 

If this is all you've got, admit it, and we'll move on.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And yet it doesn't.

 

My just graduated from USU in Psych daughter did similar work, yet found no particular evidence of endemic or significant persecution, just like this link of yours.

 

And you have still not answered my call for authorities in support of your assertions, both explicit and implicit.

 

If this is all you've got, admit it, and we'll move on.

It is all he has got other wise he would have posted something that would have satisfied your CFR. Just deflection.

[thesometimesaint]

Suicide is not a mental illness.

[USU78]

Suicide is not a mental illness.

True. It is evidence of mental illness.

[USU78]

Suicide is not a mental illness.

True. It is evidence of mental illness.

[awyatt]

True. It is evidence of mental illness.

 

True dat. See here, for example:

 

 

One hundred suicides were investigated retrospectively by interviewing surviving relatives. Nine-three per cent were diagnosed mentally ill, 85 per cent suffering from depression or alcoholism. Eighty per cent were seeing a doctor and 80 per cent were prescribed psychotropic drugs.

 

Source: The British Journal of Psychiatry

 

-Allen

[california boy]

And yet it doesn't.

 

My just graduated from USU in Psych daughter did similar work, yet found no particular evidence of endemic or significant persecution, just like this link of yours.

 

And you have still not answered my call for authorities in support of your assertions, both explicit and implicit.

 

If this is all you've got, admit it, and we'll move on.

 

 

It is all he has got other wise he would have posted something that would have satisfied your CFR. Just deflection.

 

Unbelieveable.  Both of you certainly see only what you want to see.  This took less than 5 minutes to collect.

 

 

 

Gay Man Attacked at Atlantic Station

http://www.thegavoice.com/news/atlanta-news/5023-gay-couple-attacked-saturday-at-atlanta-station

 

Gay Day Marred by Threats of Rape and Murder

http://www.advocate.com/society/activism/2012/08/07/gay-day-marred-threats-rape-and-murder

The organization called on local police to protect LGBT residents after protesters read verses from the Bible and threatened to rape a woman who was attending Gay Day.

 

Gay Salt Lake City night club bombarded by fire early Thursday morning

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Gay-Salt-Lake-City-night-club-bombarded-by-fire/w0AGLnjJfEyQ85ZELpKnaA.cspx

Both Mower and Noriega say there's no way you couldn't have known the patio was packed.

 

Noriega said, "Even from here you can't miss the fact there's lots of people there. You can hear the people; see the people so you know there are people in there. It was definitely malicious. They definitely knew what they were doing."

 

 

 

Four Marines arrested for assaulting man at Long Beach gay bar

http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_21467479/four-marines-arrested-assaulting-men-at-popular-long

 

Razor attack in Manhattan McDonald's

Police say a 22-year-old man was attacked with a razor blade inside the restaurant on West 3rd Street on Wednesday evening.

Police say the suspect made anti-gay remarks to the victim at about 7 p.m.  It turned physical and then the suspect took out a blade.

He slashed the victim in the face, back, neck and elbow before running away.

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19603391/suspect-sought-in-razor-attack-in-manhattan

 

Womans home vandalized in San Luis Obispo

Bailey Brown, who is openly gay, says her car was vandalized outside her home in the Spring, spraypainted with homophobic slurs.

Since then, two more similar vandalism attacks drew more attention, this time on the Mission Prep Campus.

 

http://www.ksby.com/news/local-victim-of-hate-crime-takes-a-stand/#!prettyPhoto[gallery]/0/

 

Teens indicted on charge of writing anti-gay slurs in Arlington neighborhood

Police say they believe that at least one house was targeted because a lesbian couple lives there. The other graffiti painted in the northwest Arlington neighborhood included racial slurs, hateful messages and derogatory images

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/10/01/4302027/teens-accused-of-writing-anti.html

 

Beloved Gay Leader Savagely Attacked, Near Death in Sunnyside

October 20 outside 41-00 43^rd Avenue. He was hit in the head with a blunt object with such force that neighbors who heard the assault but did not see it thought he had been shot.

Rispoli has been removed from life support and is now in hospice care at Elmhurst Hospital.

“He will not survive, and this will be a homicide,” said City Councilman Jimmy Van Bramer, fighting back tears, at an October 25 press conference.

http://gaycitynews.com/beloved-gay-leader-savagely-attacked-near-death-in-sunnyside/

[USU78]

anecdotes. In a country of 300 million you will find all sorts of awful behaviors.I had asked for evidence of systemic problems in employment, borrowing activities, education & housing, and evidence that self- identifying homosexuals suffer assaults and murders more than others.

I believe you know the difference.

[mormonnewb]

anecdotes. In a country of 300 million you will find all sorts of awful behaviors.I had asked for evidence of systemic problems in employment, borrowing activities, education & housing, and evidence that self- identifying homosexuals suffer assaults and murders more than others.

I believe you know the difference.

 

I can't believe I've even taken the time to do this, but here is a TINY fraction of the HUNDREDS of studies documenting discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.  If I find some time later, I'll also pull up some studies demonstrating that anti-Semitism, global warming and black holes are real things too.

 

FYI ... the fact that LGBTQ people may have, say, higher median incomes does not mean that there is no discrimination against them, just as the success of Jewish Americans does not mean that there is no anti-Semitism.

 

• gay lesbian couples suffer rental discrimination - ABC News

  abcnews.go.com › Money‎

  •  

  ABC News

   

  Jun 19, 2013 - Same-sex couples face greater discrimination when looking for a place to rent than do heterosexual couples, a new federal study finds.
• New data on lesbian, gay and bisexual mental health

  www.apa.org/monitor/.../newdata.as...‎

  •  
  •  

  American Psychological Association

   

  Discrimination may help fuel these higher rates. ... A new study of gay and lesbianyouth finds that they are only slightly more .... "There's a script we have in our culture--a 'suffering suicidal' script--that these kids have picked up on," he says.
• Gay and Transgender People Face High Rates of Workplace ...

  www.americanprogress.org › Issues › LGBT‎

  •  
  •  

  Center for American Progress

   

  Jun 2, 2011 - Studies show that anywhere from 15 percent to 43 percent of gay people have ... Their findings illustrate that discrimination and harassment are pervasive: ...Gay and transgender individuals suffer from socioeconomic ...
• Research | Williams Institute

  williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/category/research/‎

  •  
  •  

  UCLA School of Law

   

  Lesbian, Gay, or Bisexual parents of preschoolers may be particularly sensitive ... Newanalysis of responses to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey ... 78 percent of survey respondents who suffered physical or sexual violence at ...

   

   

  Study: Discrimination against GLBT individuals widespread in ...

  members.jacksonville.com › News › Local‎

  •  

  The Florida Times‑Union

   

  Mar 12, 2009 - Discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people is ... Yet the study's tales of discrimination were sobering; respondents .....four, or five) kids twhen there are already so many kids suffering in the world.

[california boy]

anecdotes. In a country of 300 million you will find all sorts of awful behaviors.I had asked for evidence of systemic problems in employment, borrowing activities, education & housing, and evidence that self- identifying homosexuals suffer assaults and murders more than others.

I believe you know the difference.

I also am not going to waste much time on this either since you seem to have an answer you want to keep no matter what.  The fact is, gays are being singled out specifically because they are gay and are being attacked and murdered.  This is not just some random bar fight, this is targeting a specific minority group solely because of who they are.  Much of the justification comes from people who believe and teach that being gay is evil.  It gives permission for people to justify in their own minds a good enough reason to brutally harm and at times murder.  We see the same thing going on in Russia where the government has singled out gays and taken away their freedom of speech.  Thugs have moved in with, in their minds, government sanction to go ahead a brutalize gays. THIS IS THE POINT.  

 

It sorrows me that you do not have much compassion for what is going on and are not willing to acknowledge the brutality that is pointed directly at gay citizens of this country specifically because they are gay.  

[Gray]

If by similar, you mean, subject persecution, I disagree.

 

Do you have any evidence that suicide rates are higher is for persecuted groups in general?

 

I know of LDS people who are persecuted for joining the church, do they have a higher suicide rate?

 

LDS people have a strong support network, and don't face anywhere near the level of persecution of gay folks 

[Gray]

I doubt that.

 

Fact is, you blame the Church and Church members for the incidents of suicide we observe.

 

Ain't nobody to blame but the suicide.

 

Or the suicide's mental illness.

 

To suggest, as you did and do, that the Church and Church members are responsible is an act of bigotry.

 

My posts are not scripture, and not really subject to eisegesis. I can't be responsible for strawman versions of my posts, but I'm always happy to answer questions about what I've actually written.

 

Thanks!

[Gray]

And yet it doesn't.

 

My just graduated from USU in Psych daughter did similar work, yet found no particular evidence of endemic or significant persecution, just like this link of yours.

 

And you have still not answered my call for authorities in support of your assertions, both explicit and implicit.

 

If this is all you've got, admit it, and we'll move on.

 

I'm not sure if a reference to your daughter's classes at USU is really a refutation. 

[Danzo]

LDS people have a strong support network, and don't face anywhere near the level of persecution of gay folks 

 

So no evidence that persecution causes homosexuals to commit suicide.

 

That's what I thought.

[Danzo]

Suicide is not just caused by mental illness. After a stock market crash, people will throw themselves out of windows. This phenomenon isn't due to an increase in mental illness, but rather it is a reaction to a situation that SEEMS unbearable.

For many gay people, living with SSA can seem unbearable. To the extent that we add to their burdens, we have SOME culpability for their suicides.

 

CFR that stock market crashes cause people to throw themselves out of windows.

 

Suicide is a serious topic, we should not base our opinions on myths.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Danzo

[Tacenda]

I doubt that.

Fact is, you blame the Church and Church members for the incidents of suicide we observe.

Ain't nobody to blame but the suicide.

Or the suicide's mental illness.

To suggest, as you did and do, that the Church and Church members are responsible is an act of bigotry.

Well they started it.

[Stone holm]

I can't believe I've even taken the time to do this, but here is a TINY fraction of the HUNDREDS of studies documenting discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.  If I find some time later, I'll also pull up some studies demonstrating that anti-Semitism, global warming and black holes are real things too.

 

FYI ... the fact that LGBTQ people may have, say, higher median incomes does not mean that there is no discrimination against them, just as the success of Jewish Americans does not mean that there is no anti-Semitism.

 

• gay lesbian couples suffer rental discrimination - ABC News

  abcnews.go.com › Money‎

  •  

  ABC News

   

  Jun 19, 2013 - Same-sex couples face greater discrimination when looking for a place to rent than do heterosexual couples, a new federal study finds.

• New data on lesbian, gay and bisexual mental health

  www.apa.org/monitor/.../newdata.as...‎

  •  
  •  

  American Psychological Association

   

  Discrimination may help fuel these higher rates. ... A new study of gay and lesbianyouth finds that they are only slightly more .... "There's a script we have in our culture--a 'suffering suicidal' script--that these kids have picked up on," he says.

• Gay and Transgender People Face High Rates of Workplace ...

  www.americanprogress.org › Issues › LGBT‎

  •  
  •  

  Center for American Progress

   

  Jun 2, 2011 - Studies show that anywhere from 15 percent to 43 percent of gay people have ... Their findings illustrate that discrimination and harassment are pervasive: ...Gay and transgender individuals suffer from socioeconomic ...

• Research | Williams Institute

  williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/category/research/‎

  •  
  •  

  UCLA School of Law

   

  Lesbian, Gay, or Bisexual parents of preschoolers may be particularly sensitive ... Newanalysis of responses to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey ... 78 percent of survey respondents who suffered physical or sexual violence at ...

   

   

  Study: Discrimination against GLBT individuals widespread in ...

  members.jacksonville.com › News › Local‎

  •  

  The Florida Times‑Union

   

  Mar 12, 2009 - Discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people is ... Yet the study's tales of discrimination were sobering; respondents .....four, or five) kids twhen there are already so many kids suffering in the world.

Look of course if you want to keep something in the closet, you need to unleash social manifest social disapproval, you can't really have it both ways. The only other approach which has a veil of civility is to treat it as an illness, but so far attempts to get society to treat it like alcoholism have failed. Or did you think that hate the sin and not the sinner was something that actually worked in the real world

[Calm]

The apa study you linked to quoted more fully:

Several studies suggest that gay men, lesbians and bisexuals appear to have higher rates of some mental disorders compared with heterosexuals, although not to the level of a serious pathology. Discrimination may help fuel these higher rates.

A study found lesbians reported equally strong levels of mental health as their heterosexual sisters and higher self-esteem.

A new study of gay and lesbian youth finds that they are only slightly more likely than heterosexual youth to attempt suicide, refuting previous research that suggested much higher rates...

Higher rates of major depression, generalized anxiety disorder and substance use or dependence in lesbian and gay youth. Higher rates of recurrent major depression among gay men. Higher rates of anxiety, mood and substance use disorders, and suicidal thoughts among people ages 15 to 54 with same-sex partners. Higher use of mental health services in men and women reporting same-sex partners.

For one thing, she says, "these are certainly not levels of morbidity consistent with models that say homosexuality is inherently pathological." For another, the data simply don't prove either pro- or anti-gay arguments on the subject, whether it's that the inherent biology of homosexuality causes mental illness or that social stigma provokes mental illness in LGB people, she says.

They looked at particular instances of discrimination, such as not being hired for a job or being denied a bank loan, as well as feelings of perceived discrimination, such as the sense that people treated them with less respect. The team also assessed rates of mental health disorders in both groups.

LGB respondents reported higher rates of perceived discrimination than heterosexuals in every category related to discrimination, the team found.

An article in the December issue of APA's Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology points to a possible cause of seemingly higher rates of suicide among LGB and transgendered (LGBT) youth: discrepancies between what gay youth report about suicide attempts and what they're actually doing.

The article, by Cornell University's Ritch C. Savin-Williams, PhD, reports on two studies that conclude that even though sexual-minority teens are more likely than heterosexual youth to report suicide attempts, half of those reports are false--that is, the young people had thought about suicide but hadn't acted on it. In addition, Savin-Williams found, many of the true attempts the young people reported weren't life-threatening.

"When you ask in-depth questions about suicide attempts, the responses you get account for the rate differences between heterosexual and sexual minority youth suicide," Savin-Williams says. "The heterosexual youth had hardly any false attempts, while those with same-sex attractions had a lot of them."

In one of the studies, 23 percent of 83 young sexual-minority women said they'd attempted suicide at least once. On further questioning, though, 29 percent of the reported attempts turned out to be false, and 80 percent of the true attempts were not life-threatening, Savin-Williams writes. The one exception was a small number of young women who were part of a support group, whose rate of actual suicide attempts was much higher than others in the sample.

In the other study, Savin-Williams compared reported suicide attempts in 126 young sexual-minority young people and 140 young heterosexual men and women. Again, while sexual-minority men and women were far more likely to report suicide attempts than heterosexual subjects, the two groups showed similar rates of true suicide attempts.

The findings suggest that gay youth are vulnerable to the media's and researchers' well-meaning but negative depictions of gay youth as highly troubled people heading on a collision course with life, Savin-Williams maintains.

"There's a script we have in our culture--a 'suffering suicidal' script--that these kids have picked up on," he says. A better approach for researchers, teachers and other youth workers, he believes, is to treat all young LGBT people as ordinary kids with great potential, unless they show research-based or visible indicators of suicide risk.

[Stone holm]

The apa study you linked to quoted more fully:

Several studies suggest that gay men, lesbians and bisexuals appear to have higher rates of some mental disorders compared with heterosexuals, although not to the level of a serious pathology. Discrimination may help fuel these higher rates.

A study found lesbians reported equally strong levels of mental health as their heterosexual sisters and higher self-esteem.

A new study of gay and lesbian youth finds that they are only slightly more likely than heterosexual youth to attempt suicide, refuting previous research that suggested much higher rates...

Higher rates of major depression, generalized anxiety disorder and substance use or dependence in lesbian and gay youth. Higher rates of recurrent major depression among gay men. Higher rates of anxiety, mood and substance use disorders, and suicidal thoughts among people ages 15 to 54 with same-sex partners. Higher use of mental health services in men and women reporting same-sex partners.

For one thing, she says, "these are certainly not levels of morbidity consistent with models that say homosexuality is inherently pathological." For another, the data simply don't prove either pro- or anti-gay arguments on the subject, whether it's that the inherent biology of homosexuality causes mental illness or that social stigma provokes mental illness in LGB people, she says.

They looked at particular instances of discrimination, such as not being hired for a job or being denied a bank loan, as well as feelings of perceived discrimination, such as the sense that people treated them with less respect. The team also assessed rates of mental health disorders in both groups.

LGB respondents reported higher rates of perceived discrimination than heterosexuals in every category related to discrimination, the team found.

An article in the December issue of APA's Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology points to a possible cause of seemingly higher rates of suicide among LGB and transgendered (LGBT) youth: discrepancies between what gay youth report about suicide attempts and what they're actually doing.

The article, by Cornell University's Ritch C. Savin-Williams, PhD, reports on two studies that conclude that even though sexual-minority teens are more likely than heterosexual youth to report suicide attempts, half of those reports are false--that is, the young people had thought about suicide but hadn't acted on it. In addition, Savin-Williams found, many of the true attempts the young people reported weren't life-threatening.

"When you ask in-depth questions about suicide attempts, the responses you get account for the rate differences between heterosexual and sexual minority youth suicide," Savin-Williams says. "The heterosexual youth had hardly any false attempts, while those with same-sex attractions had a lot of them."

In one of the studies, 23 percent of 83 young sexual-minority women said they'd attempted suicide at least once. On further questioning, though, 29 percent of the reported attempts turned out to be false, and 80 percent of the true attempts were not life-threatening, Savin-Williams writes. The one exception was a small number of young women who were part of a support group, whose rate of actual suicide attempts was much higher than others in the sample.

In the other study, Savin-Williams compared reported suicide attempts in 126 young sexual-minority young people and 140 young heterosexual men and women. Again, while sexual-minority men and women were far more likely to report suicide attempts than heterosexual subjects, the two groups showed similar rates of true suicide attempts.

The findings suggest that gay youth are vulnerable to the media's and researchers' well-meaning but negative depictions of gay youth as highly troubled people heading on a collision course with life, Savin-Williams maintains.

"There's a script we have in our culture--a 'suffering suicidal' script--that these kids have picked up on," he says. A better approach for researchers, teachers and other youth workers, he believes, is to treat all young LGBT people as ordinary kids with great potential, unless they show research-based or visible indicators of suicide risk.

 

If you have been on Cornell's campus they have this really nice bridge across a fairly deep chasm, that students appear attracted to in order to take swan dives into eternity off of.  That University has traditionally ranked high on suicides.

[USU78]

 

I can't believe I've even taken the time to do this, but here is a TINY fraction of the HUNDREDS of studies documenting discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.  If I find some time later, I'll also pull up some studies demonstrating that anti-Semitism, global warming and black holes are real things too.

 

FYI ... the fact that LGBTQ people may have, say, higher median incomes does not mean that there is no discrimination against them, just as the success of Jewish Americans does not mean that there is no anti-Semitism.

 

• gay lesbian couples suffer rental discrimination - ABC News

  abcnews.go.com › Money‎

  •  

  ABC News

   

  Jun 19, 2013 - Same-sex couples face greater discrimination when looking for a place to rent than do heterosexual couples, a new federal study finds.
• New data on lesbian, gay and bisexual mental health

  www.apa.org/monitor/.../newdata.as...‎

  •  
  •  

  American Psychological Association

   

  Discrimination may help fuel these higher rates. ... A new study of gay and lesbianyouth finds that they are only slightly more .... "There's a script we have in our culture--a 'suffering suicidal' script--that these kids have picked up on," he says.
• Gay and Transgender People Face High Rates of Workplace ...

  www.americanprogress.org › Issues › LGBT‎

  •  
  •  

  Center for American Progress

   

  Jun 2, 2011 - Studies show that anywhere from 15 percent to 43 percent of gay people have ... Their findings illustrate that discrimination and harassment are pervasive: ...Gay and transgender individuals suffer from socioeconomic ...
• Research | Williams Institute

  williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/category/research/‎

  •  
  •  

  UCLA School of Law

   

  Lesbian, Gay, or Bisexual parents of preschoolers may be particularly sensitive ... Newanalysis of responses to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey ... 78 percent of survey respondents who suffered physical or sexual violence at ...

   

   

  Study: Discrimination against GLBT individuals widespread in ...

  members.jacksonville.com › News › Local‎

  •  

  The Florida Times‑Union

   

  Mar 12, 2009 - Discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people is ... Yet the study's tales of discrimination were sobering; respondents .....four, or five) kids twhen there are already so many kids suffering in the world.

 

 

We have a total absence of any data that we can have confidence in as to causation on any of these.  What we have are conclusory statements that amount to the opinion of the researcher.  Correlation, even if established, does not equal causation.

 

As calmoriah stated so well below, it is as likely that suicides amongst self-identifying homosexual youth are caused by a narrative adopted and pushed by the so-called "homosexual community" for political purposes than by any "outside" influences, including religious, family or other social pressures.

 

And we still have not seen anything other than very loud and very teary assertions of systemic economic harms to a population that, by the statistics I have seen [sowell] is actually on the whole better off than the rest of the population.

 

Breeding is expensive.

 

Breeders should be the last ones that the oh-so-trendy should mock.

[mormonnewb]

 

We have a total absence of any data that we can have confidence in as to causation on any of these.  What we have are conclusory statements that amount to the opinion of the researcher.  Correlation, even if established, does not equal causation.

 

As calmoriah stated so well below, it is as likely that suicides amongst self-identifying homosexual youth are caused by a narrative adopted and pushed by the so-called "homosexual community" for political purposes than by any "outside" influences, including religious, family or other social pressures.

 

And we still have not seen anything other than very loud and very teary assertions of systemic economic harms to a population that, by the statistics I have seen [sowell] is actually on the whole better off than the rest of the population.

 

Breeding is expensive.

 

Breeders should be the last ones that the oh-so-trendy should mock.

 

I was answering your request for evidence of widespread discrimination against gays and lesbians, not evidence of its causation for suicide.

 

And once again, Uncle Thomas Sowell's economic statistics notwithstanding, succeeding in spite of discrimination does not negate the existence of discrimination (e.g., Jewish people for the last 2,000 years).

[Gray]

So no evidence that persecution causes homosexuals to commit suicide.

 

That's what I thought.

 

You seem to not want to know.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

[USU78]

I'm not sure if a reference to your daughter's classes at USU is really a refutation. 

 

You are new to a longish conversation.  I would understand how you would think that, looking as you do at ephemera.

[USU78]

I was answering your request for evidence of widespread discrimination against gays and lesbians, not evidence of its causation for suicide.

 

And once again, Uncle Thomas Sowell's economic statistics notwithstanding, succeeding in spite of discrimination does not negate the existence of discrimination (e.g., Jewish people for the last 2,000 years).

 

Sowell goes farther than that:  he argues against much of the Great Society's alleged scientific, ethical and moral underpinnings:  much of what was being touted as reasons for, for example, certain economic and educational advantages giving to black folks as "compensation" for present and prior discriminatory acts were not founded in actual facts.

 

That Joe Blow couldn't purchase a house in neighborhood X because of neighborhood restrictions on race did not mean Joe Blow was without comparable housing opportunities:  if he could afford neighborhood X which had restrictions, he could afford just about anywhere else that didn't have restrictions.

 

This same argument applies here:  without hard data on real systemic economic, education, etc hardships, how are we to justify the imposition of legislative horrors and actual motivations to discriminate by giving preferences and appointing champions for this season's popularity contest winners?  'Cause they yell loudest?  Are prettiest?  Make us feel guiltiest?

 

Even if we were to find hard data supportive of the horrific changes being imposed, I would still reject the legislation or judge-made laws as tyrannical.

 

Governments are awful instruments for imposing good behavior on people.

 

Draconian penalties for misdemeanants for their boorishness is poor public policy.

[USU78]

Well they started it.