Ssm And Church "moral" Activism In Political And Judicial Forums

[USU78]

Be careful. USU78 read one of my previous posts as an attempt to smear him as a closeted homosexual. Asking him to go meet a gay person, who knows how he will read that :-)

 

As a stupid suggestion.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 Carter has been the best ex-President we have had in my lifetime even if hearsay washout as President.

Now that is perhaps the best joke ever told in a thread. Carter was a complete joke in just about every way.

[wenglund]

For those purporting that religious advocacy effectively greased the slide to Sodom, are you aware that the inception of marriage licensing legislation in the U.S. was heavily influenced by religion?

 

It seems more than a little ironic that people would object to religious involvement in preventing the mangling of religious-based legislation.

 

Or, more to the point, iI find it wacky that a relative few homosexuals would wish to confusedly embrace the religious-based legislation of marriage, while their supporters decry religious involvement in legislation. 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

Now that is perhaps the best joke ever told in a thread. Carter was a complete joke in just about every way.

 

He was a weak President, but a great Ex President...course it may not be fair to judge him against the competition...namely an Alzheimers victim and a water color painter ... and a wife's campaign manager...but he has been a very good ex President.

[Gray]

It is, in my humble opinion, a hate crime and the pinnacle of bigotry to accuse religionists of responsibility for the suicides by the mentally ill, including those whose mental illness includes same sex attraction syndrome.

 

Same sex attraction isn't a mental illness, but intolerance against gay people DOES lead to suicides. It's less a problem of any particular religion or non-religion and more a problem with certain modes of thought. Intolerance against gay people happens in both secular and religious communities, unfortunately. 

 

Gay people suffer a great deal of persecution in this country and others. As Mormons we should be sympathetic to that. 

[USU78]

Same sex attraction isn't a mental illness, but intolerance against gay people DOES lead to suicides. It's less a problem of any particular religion or non-religion and more a problem with certain modes of thought. Intolerance against gay people happens in both secular and religious communities, unfortunately. 

 

Gay people suffer a great deal of persecution in this country and others. As Mormons we should be sympathetic to that. 

 

Wow.

 

You must really really think so if you say so.

 

Don't mean it is so.

And the social science [so-called] upon which you rely [apparently] relies upon more proper ganders than the scientific method.

 

So stop the unsupported and insupportable hate speech against religionists already.

[USU78]

Gray, I've got a better idea.

 

Please supply reputable studies which demonstrate that self-identifying homosexuals in the US earn, on average, X% less than their unafflicted heterosexual counterparts.

 

Please supply reputable studies which demonstrate that self-identifying homosexuals in the US are refused housing X% more frequently than their unafflicted heterosexual counterparts.

 

Please supply reputable studies which demonstrate that self-identifying homosexuals in the US suffer assaults/murders X% more frequently than their unafflicted heterosexual counterparts.

 

Then we can start having a conversation on whether your insupportable and unsupported assertions ought to receive any weight in anybody's algebra.

[Danzo]

Same sex attraction isn't a mental illness, but intolerance against gay people DOES lead to suicides. It's less a problem of any particular religion or non-religion and more a problem with certain modes of thought. Intolerance against gay people happens in both secular and religious communities, unfortunately. 

 

Gay people suffer a great deal of persecution in this country and others. As Mormons we should be sympathetic to that. 

 

Intolerance causes suicide?

 

I always thought it was caused by mental illness.

[mormonnewb]

Intolerance causes suicide?

I always thought it was caused by mental illness.

Suicide is not just caused by mental illness. After a stock market crash, people will throw themselves out of windows. This phenomenon isn't due to an increase in mental illness, but rather it is a reaction to a situation that SEEMS unbearable.

For many gay people, living with SSA can seem unbearable. To the extent that we add to their burdens, we have SOME culpability for their suicides.

[Tacenda]

 

 

I open my heart to whom and what way I choose.  I dismiss the following claims:

 

1.  That there is a systemic and significant shortage of jobs, housing, and borrowing opportunities for self-proclaimed homosexuals . . .

 

2.  That there is a demonstrated organic cause for homosexual behavior . . .

 

3.  That men who abandon their wives and families for other men are in any way brave . . .

 

4.  That those who succumb to homosexual urges are in any way brave . . .

 

5.  That those who self-proclaim as homosexual are in any way laudworthy on that account . . .

 

6.  That those who use the courts to impose requirements abhorrent to others are in any way laudworthy . . .

 

7.  That there is any statistically significant difference between "gay on gay" and "straight on gay" or "gay on straight" violence that needs addressing via legislation . . .

 

8.  That hate crime laws are not anything other than politically motivated favors extended as a quid pro quo for political favors given or promised . . .

 

9.  That it is not a horror beyond expression that children should be raised in same-sex households . . . and . . .

 

10.  That women are not the losers in the homosexual "rights" wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4hJVRNTTMY

 

LDS (Mormon) Same Sex Attraction Study

 

What do you think?  Care to watch this? 

[Gray]

 

Wow.

 

You must really really think so if you say so.

 

Don't mean it is so.

And the social science [so-called] upon which you rely [apparently] relies upon more proper ganders than the scientific method.

 

So stop the unsupported and insupportable hate speech against religionists already.

 

If that's what you got out of my post, you've misread it completely

[Gray]

Gray, I've got a better idea.

 

Please supply reputable studies which demonstrate that self-identifying homosexuals in the US earn, on average, X% less than their unafflicted heterosexual counterparts.

 

Please supply reputable studies which demonstrate that self-identifying homosexuals in the US are refused housing X% more frequently than their unafflicted heterosexual counterparts.

 

Please supply reputable studies which demonstrate that self-identifying homosexuals in the US suffer assaults/murders X% more frequently than their unafflicted heterosexual counterparts.

 

Then we can start having a conversation on whether your insupportable and unsupported assertions ought to receive any weight in anybody's algebra.

 

I don't think I need to find all that to support my assertion that gays are persecuted. This should suffice:

 

http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/bullying_sexual_orientation.page

[Gray]

Intolerance causes suicide?

 

I always thought it was caused by mental illness.

 

I'm glad you've had a chance to reconsider some of your assumptions

[Danzo]

I'm glad you've had a chance to reconsider some of your assumptions

 

 

Most people manage to go through life and not commit suicide,  Even the ones who feel persecuted.

 

In fact, most people who are persecuted, do not commit suicide.  

 

Are you suggesting that identifying as gay, is a mental defect that makes one more susceptible to suicide?

[california boy]

Most people manage to go through life and not commit suicide,  Even the ones who feel persecuted.

 

In fact, most people who are persecuted, do not commit suicide.  

 

Are you suggesting that identifying as gay, is a mental defect that makes one more susceptible to suicide?

Unfortunately, many gays are not only persecuted, but many have been shunned by their churches, and have been rejected by their families.  Some have lost all of their friends as well.  There is more to it than just persecution.  If you lost your complete support system and were being persecuted without any support, the feeling of despair is certainly exasperated.  It can be even more devistating when it is your family, friends, or church that is doing the persecution.

 

I am not saying that the Mormon church persecutes gays, so please don't jump to that conclusion.  But I wouldn't whitewash the role individual members in the church that can be very devestating.  From personal experience, is all I can say, is that it is tough for most gay Mormons to deal with this issue.

[Gray]

Most people manage to go through life and not commit suicide,  Even the ones who feel persecuted.

 

In fact, most people who are persecuted, do not commit suicide.  

 

Are you suggesting that identifying as gay, is a mental defect that makes one more susceptible to suicide?

 

Why would I suggest that? I think any group would have a similar suicide rate if placed under similar circumstances.

[Danzo]

Why would I suggest that? I think any group would have a similar suicide rate if placed under similar circumstances.

 

If by similar, you mean, subject persecution, I disagree.

 

Do you have any evidence that suicide rates are higher is for persecuted groups in general?

 

I know of LDS people who are persecuted for joining the church, do they have a higher suicide rate?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Danzo

[california boy]

If by similar, you mean, subject persecution, I disagree.

 

Do you have any evidence that suicide rates are higher is for persecuted groups in general?

 

I know of LDS people who are persecuted for joining the church, do they have a higher suicide rate?

 

 

 

 

I

 

 

You completely ignored my post.  It is more than just being persecuted. 

[Danzo]

You completely ignored my post.  It is more than just being persecuted. 

 

Sorry, I was getting around to your post. 

 

I don't deny that gays have been mistreated.  

It is my understanding that Suicide most often happens primarily because of what is going on inside a person, not what is outside the person. I think it rare, when suicide occurs, to be able to say "So and So made him do it., If So and So hadn't done this or that, that person would still be alive".

[california boy]

Sorry, I was getting around to your post. 

 

I don't deny that gays have been mistreated.  

It is my understanding that Suicide most often happens primarily because of what is going on inside a person, not what is outside the person. I think it rare, when suicide occurs, to be able to say "So and So made him do it., If So and So hadn't done this or that, that person would still be alive".

The fact that you understand what is going on inside the person causes the suicide is probably accurate.  That does not mean that external issues may be causing the distress within the individual.  Since there have been gays that have left a note claiming that the church was causing these internal issues is what is being discussed.  Suicide does not always mean mental illness.  It sometimes means the person can not cope with external pressures being put upon them.

[Danzo]

 Since there have been gays that have left a note claiming that the church was causing these internal issues is what is being discussed. 

 

My understanding is that many people who commit suicide leave notes blaming others for their actions.  Do we then have someone to "blame" for the suicide?

 

In these cases where the church was blamed for the suicide, do you think that removing the person from the church would have prevented the act?

[california boy]

My understanding is that many people who commit suicide leave notes blaming others for their actions.  Do we then have someone to "blame" for the suicide?

 

In these cases where the church was blamed for the suicide, do you think that removing the person from the church would have prevented the act?

I have no idea.  I do know that the transition from having all of your social support from the church and family to finding a community that accepts you can be difficult.  For some I think it can be overwhelming.

 

I am not blaming the church for the suicide. I am just saying that there can be underlying issues one has to deal with by growing up in the Mormon church when you know how much the church condemns homosexuality.  It is getting better, but some see reconciling the two as hopeless.

[USU78]

I am not blaming the church for the suicide. I am just saying that there can be underlying issues one has to deal with by growing up in the Mormon church when you know how much the church condemns homosexuality.

 

Hmmm.

 

This is a more nuanced position than cb has had in years past, and not an unwelcome one.

 

  It is getting better, but some see reconciling the two as hopeless.

 

I would tend to agree that reconciling unrepentant immorality with Church teaching is more than a stretch:  it is a logical impossibility.

[USU78]

If that's what you got out of my post, you've misread it completely

 

I doubt that.

 

Fact is, you blame the Church and Church members for the incidents of suicide we observe.

 

Ain't nobody to blame but the suicide.

 

Or the suicide's mental illness.

 

To suggest, as you did and do, that the Church and Church members are responsible is an act of bigotry.

[USU78]

Unfortunately, many gays are not only persecuted, but many have been shunned by their churches, and have been rejected by their families.

 

Or, perhaps, they have rejected their families, or have made themselves so obnoxious that no one can stand to be around them.  The UeberRage so prevalent amongst self-identifying homosexuals makes living with them . . . problematic.

 

I am not saying that the Mormon church persecutes gays, so please don't jump to that conclusion.  But I wouldn't whitewash the role individual members in the church that can be very devestating.  From personal experience, is all I can say, is that it is tough for most gay Mormons to deal with this issue.

 

Perhaps the fingerpointing in this part of the post is evidence of deflection.

 

Perhaps not.

 

Looks like it.