Ssm And Church "moral" Activism In Political And Judicial Forums

[mormonnewb]

Not to derail the thread further, but this errant projection made me chuckle. To see why, read The Politics of Race.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I chuckled too because (as always) you have the most clever ways to prove my point. As I understand this most linked article in the history of the web, civil rights was okay until we black people started to take it too far. Instead, we should endorse policies proposed by conservatives (almost none of whom are black), because THEY have the answers to what ails black people. And despite the fact that more than 90% of blacks would prefer other policies, "we just don't know what's good for us."

Once again, what a purely ingenious way to demonstrate the white supremacist assumptions of these people. Kudos to you, sir!

 

And no, I'm not saying that any opposition to, say, affirmative action, is racist.  There are some perfectly logical (although unpersuasive) arguments that it is a form of "reverse racism."  For a largely white group to challenge affirmative action as having a negative impact on them is to be expected and part of the political process.  What leaves me incredulous is the conservative who says, "I want to end affirmative action for the benefit of blacks despite the fact that they almost universally support it."

 

By way of analogy, that would be like Pres. Obama calling our Prophet and saying, "Just a heads up, but we're going to start mandating that you seal gay couples in your temples.  And just so you know, this isn't because we think that your exclusion of gays hurts them.  It's because we think your policy is killing the church from a PR perspective.  And we're really worried about the future growth of the Church.  Besides, we've had some think tank guys look at your scriptures and we're pretty sure that you're reading them all wrong.  Trust me.  You'll thank us later."

 

Even a knee-jerk liberal like myself would be insulted by such a call.  President Obama, a non-Mormon, has the nerve to presume that he knows what's best for Mormons?  Kenyan, please!

Edited March 28, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Calm]

You seem to not want to know.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

Or

"An article in the December issue of APA's Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology points to a possible cause of seemingly higher rates of suicide among LGB and transgendered (LGBT) youth: discrepancies between what gay youth report about suicide attempts and what they're actually doing.

The article, by Cornell University's Ritch C. Savin-Williams, PhD, reports on two studies that conclude that even though sexual-minority teens are more likely than heterosexual youth to report suicide attempts, half of those reports are false--that is, the young people had thought about suicide but hadn't acted on it. In addition, Savin-Williams found, many of the true attempts the young people reported weren't life-threatening.

"When you ask in-depth questions about suicide attempts, the responses you get account for the rate differences between heterosexual and sexual minority youth suicide," Savin-Williams says. "The heterosexual youth had hardly any false attempts, while those with same-sex attractions had a lot of them."

In one of the studies, 23 percent of 83 young sexual-minority women said they'd attempted suicide at least once. On further questioning, though, 29 percent of the reported attempts turned out to be false, and 80 percent of the true attempts were not life-threatening, Savin-Williams writes. The one exception was a small number of young women who were part of a support group, whose rate of actual suicide attempts was much higher than others in the sample.

In the other study, Savin-Williams compared reported suicide attempts in 126 young sexual-minority young people and 140 young heterosexual men and women. Again, while sexual-minority men and women were far more likely to report suicide attempts than heterosexual subjects, the two groups showed similar rates of true suicide attempts.

The findings suggest that gay youth are vulnerable to the media's and researchers' well-meaning but negative depictions of gay youth as highly troubled people heading on a collision course with life, Savin-Williams maintains.

"There's a script we have in our culture--a 'suffering suicidal' script--that these kids have picked up on," he says. A better approach for researchers, teachers and other youth workers, he believes, is to treat all young LGBT people as ordinary kids with great potential, unless they show research-based or visible indicators of suicide risk. "

[Calm]

Just wondering because I do, on both mine and my husband's side of the family. And suicidal thoughts were prevalant among them.

Did you read the APA study as to why that might be?

[mormonnewb]

Succeeding in spite of discrimination does not negate the existence of discrimination.  But it does say something about the extent and severity of the discrimination. 

 

In that case, it must be true that I experience for more discrimination than Frederick Douglas ever did.  After all, he was able to accomplish far more than I have while living during the days of slavery.  And if he succeeded in spite of it, according to the logic above, the discrimination he faced could not have been that severe at all, right?

[Stone holm]

I chuckled too because (as always) you have the most clever ways to prove my point. As I understand this most linked article in the history of the web, civil rights was okay until we black people started to take it too far. Instead, we should endorse policies proposed by conservatives (almost none of whom are black), because THEY have the answers to what ails black people. And despite the fact that more than 90% of blacks would prefer other policies, "we just don't know what's good for us."

Once again, what a purely ingenious way to demonstrate the white supremacist assumptions of these people. Kudos to you, sir!

 

And no, I'm not saying that any opposition to, say, affirmative action, is racist.  There are some perfectly logical (although unpersuasive) arguments that it is a form of "reverse racism."  For a largely white group to challenge affirmative action as having a negative impact on them is to be expected and part of the political process.  What leaves me incredulous is the conservative who says, "I want to end affirmative action for the benefit of blacks despite the fact that they almost universally support it."

 

By way of analogy, that would be like Pres. Obama calling our Prophet and saying, "Just a heads up, but we're going to start mandating that you seal gay couples in your temples.  And just so you know, this isn't because we think that your exclusion of gays hurts them.  It's because we think your policy is killing the church from a PR perspective.  And we're really worried about the future growth of the Church.  Besides, we've had some think tank guys look at your scriptures and we're pretty sure that you're reading them all wrong.  Trust me.  You'll thank us later."

 

Even a knee-jerk liberal like myself would be insulted by such a call.  President Obama, a non-Mormon, has the nerve to presume that he knows what's best for Mormons?  Kenyan, please!

Ah but of course they know what is best for you!

[Tacenda]

B'bye

Sorry about your kindergarten experience, I had a bully in kindergarten too, he'd call me a boy because my hair was cut in a pixie style, thank you mom . But, we're talking adults here, they just want what you and I have. But it definitely doesn't mean they should sue a church to be able to marry in the confines of it. I'm not for that. And we do need to open our mind and heart to the even minute possibility that something occurred and they were born with chromosomes that spell their love choice. And the one or two, man given scripture in the bible may not be the end all be all to the problem. We evolve, not to our destruction but to our construction, that of working it out. Not lay down the gauntlet, but the reach out and touch, (the song)hand.

[thesometimesaint]

Homosexuality is caused by penguins according to Focus on the Family Action.

[Stone holm]

Homosexuality is caused by penguins according to Focus on the Family Action.

 

I thought it was caused by letting your kids watch "Frozen"...does it have something to do with temperature?

[thesometimesaint]

I thought it was caused by letting your kids watch "Frozen"...does it have something to do with temperature?

 

That idea is being promoted by a Mormon. It has nothing to do with temperature as far as I know.

[USU78]

Sorry about your kindergarten experience, I had a bully in kindergarten too, he'd call me a boy because my hair was cut in a pixie style, thank you mom . But, we're talking adults here, they just want what you and I have. But it definitely doesn't mean they should sue a church to be able to marry in the confines of it. I'm not for that. And we do need to open our mind and heart to the even minute possibility that something occurred and they were born with chromosomes that spell their love choice. And the one or two, man given scripture in the bible may not be the end all be all to the problem. We evolve, not to our destruction but to our construction, that of working it out. Not lay down the gauntlet, but the reach out and touch, (the song)hand.

So, you have bought into the hopeless fiction that homosexuality is genetic, inborn and immutable, huh?

[Tacenda]

So, you have bought into the hopeless fiction that homosexuality is genetic, inborn and immutable, huh?

You really want me to go away don't you. 

[USU78]

You really want me to go away don't you.

Delighted I could do something to make your life seem a little more worthwhile

[wenglund]

I chuckled too because (as always) you have the most clever ways to prove my point. As I understand this most linked article in the history of the web, civil rights was okay until we black people started to take it too far. Instead, we should endorse policies proposed by conservatives (almost none of whom are black), because THEY have the answers to what ails black people. And despite the fact that more than 90% of blacks would prefer other policies, "we just don't know what's good for us."

 

Evidently, obtaining civil rights doesn't necessarily endow a person with accurate reading comprehension skills since your interpretation of my article is miles (greater than the distance of the Martin Luther King Highway) from what was actually said. Instead, it simply parrots the multi-colored straw man you  seem so fond of propping up and flogging--a serious case of confirmation bias if there ever was one.

 

True emancipation will occur for you when you finally discover that the chains that bind and enslave you are of your own making--though certainly assisted by the liberal indoctrination you have been immersed in, and that true freedom comes from subjecting yourself to Christ. His is a gospel that isn't poll-based or race-centric, but the product of wise and loving and transcendent God tailored to each of his individual.and beloved children.

 

In short, it is time for you to get unstuck from the 60's and move on with the rest of your fellow saints towards a fullness in Christ. [Thumbs Up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Delighted I could do something to make your life seem a little more worthwhile

I hope no SSM couples move into your ward or neighborhood.  They just might change your mind about them, then what would we disagree on?  But I'll just say I love Dr. Pepper too.  Maybe for now we'll have one thing in common.  Cheerio and have a nice day, the mountains and sky sure look beautiful in the greater Salt Lake area today!  Take Care.   

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from. ??

I offer a sincere apology and a willingness to be a more charitable in future posts. You are right and that was a uncalled for esp since I don't know you very well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Seriously bro, I don't get people who can't see that Uncle Thomas Sowell is an intellectual hack who simply profits from being a shill for racists.  By virtue of his pigment, he can get away with making racist assumptions about "the black community" (as if such a thing exists) that a white person could never get away with.  As a result, he is trotted out to oppose any effort to redress racial disparities in education, economics, you name it.  And he is part of an entire cottage industry of such House Negroes.

 

For example, a few years ago, Uncle Larry Elder wrote a book entitled "Stupid Black Men."  Can you even imagine a white guy getting such a book published?  As the name implies, it was a manifesto on all of the "stupid" things that black men are doing in society.  Now, there is always a place for critical self-reflection, but this book wasn't written TO black men, but rather ABOUT us.   After all, the title virtually ensured that none of us would buy it.  How many Mormons would purchase a book entitled "Stupid Mormon Sheeple"?  Bueller?  Anyone?  Bueller?

 

But back to Sowell ... This isn't an issue of dueling political philosophies.  His purpose is to stoke racial differences and comfort SOME whites in their feeling of "superiority."

 

For instance, here is one of my favorite Sowell abominations:

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/362030/early-skirmishes-race-war-thomas-sowell

 

He titles it "Early Skirmishes in the Race War."  He starts the essay by remarking how grateful he is to old enough that he might not be around for the impending race war in America.  And what are the causes of this race war?  Increasing economic equalities between the races?  Repeated incidents of unarmed black men dying at the hands of police officers and even civilians?  No!  The problem is the epidemic of roving gangs of black youths randomly attacking white people on the streets of America.

 

Now, if you haven't heard of these "numerous" incidents, Sowell suggests that it is because the media won't cover them, with the exception of Bill O'Reilly who has featured the "Knockout Game" in several recent shows.  Of course, O'Reilly's knockout game turned out to be an urban myth, but why would we expect a "distinguished scholar" to be able to discern fact from fiction?  But I digress ...

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/26/knockout-game-myth/3729635/

 

Sowell goes on and on and on about the dangers faced by whites from these roving bands of "thugs."  Of course, he gives no statistical data to inform the reader about the actual extent of the problem.  That's not his point.  His point is to warn us that "racists" (whoever they may be) will soon use these (countless) attacks to justify their hatred of blacks.  And before we know it, the race war is underway.

 

To recap, Sowell is worried about a race war resulting from white backlash against vicious attacks by roaming gangs of black youths.  So to avoid this thing that he presumably doesn't want, he amplifies reports of these incidents (despite a slew of contrary evidence that such attacks are extremely rare and not part of any coordinated attack against "the man").  As someone who has four "black youths," who will be the likely victims in any such race war, do you see why I might not consider Thomas Sowell to be a "friend" to black people?

 

I assume that there are "Uncle Brighams" in Mormonism.  Perhaps, as Mormons, you treat them with deference and respect, but in a language befitting Sowell's perceptions of blacks, this homey don't play dat!

Wait, so you are trying to justify the use of derogatory terms because you dislike Thomas Sowell because you disagree with him. You think because he is not down for the struggle that you can just thrown him through the mud? I also think your characterization of Thomas is way off. Anyway I will not belabor that point.

 

BTW I don't personally know any whites that have a superiority complex. By and large I think that era is over and has been for a long time.

 

You know the funny thing is that there are plenty of people in the black community that get away with using racist terms and if they were white they would be raked through the coals. Are you going to condemn the rap community? Or do they get a pass?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Evidently, obtaining civil rights doesn't necessarily endow a person with accurate reading comprehension skills since your interpretation of my article is miles (greater than the distance of the Martin Luther King Highway) from what was actually said. Instead, it simply parrots the multi-colored straw man you  seem so fond of propping up and flogging--a serious case of confirmation bias if there ever was one.

 

True emancipation will occur for you when you finally discover that the chains that bind and enslave you are of your own making--though certainly assisted by the liberal indoctrination you have been immersed in, and that true freedom comes from subjecting yourself to Christ. His is a gospel that isn't poll-based or race-centric, but the product of wise and loving and transcendent God tailored to each of his individual.and beloved children.

 

In short, it is time for you to get unstuck from the 60's and move on with the rest of your fellow saints towards a fullness in Christ. [Thumbs Up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade,

This is well said. I have a feeling that it will be misunderstood. The hard thing that is going on here is that this is turning political but it is also racial and for some reason to even have a conversation about this is impossible these days.  I was about to say more but I think I am done.

[mormonnewb]

Evidently, obtaining civil rights doesn't necessarily endow a person with accurate reading comprehension skills since your interpretation of my article is miles (greater than the distance of the Martin Luther King Highway) from what was actually said. Instead, it simply parrots the multi-colored straw man you seem so fond of propping up and flogging--a serious case of confirmation bias if there ever was one.

True emancipation will occur for you when you finally discover that the chains that bind and enslave you are of your own making--though certainly assisted by the liberal indoctrination you have been immersed in, and that true freedom comes from subjecting yourself to Christ. His is a gospel that isn't poll-based or race-centric, but the product of wise and loving and transcendent God tailored to each of his individual.and beloved children.

In short, it is time for you to get unstuck from the 60's and move on with the rest of your fellow saints towards a fullness in Christ. [Thumbs Up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You could have saved yourself several trips to the thesaurus and simply said, "Oops, my bad." Because you in no way answered my critique that the article in question is based on the idea that "we enlightened white people know what's best for you black folks."

By the way, making blind assertions about my reading comprehension skills is not an answer to my critique.

As for my "true emancipation" being through submission to Christ, I want to once again thank you for stepping down from your high tapir to show me the way. However, if I may give some advice of my own: You first!

[mormonnewb]

BTW I don't personally know any whites that have a superiority complex. By and large I think that era is over and has been for a long time.

Wow! Wow! Wow!

I don't know a black person who hasn't, on some level, bought into the idea that WHITE people are more intelligent, industrious and moral (myself included).

I strongly suspect that at least one of us isn't seeing the situation clearly.

[mormonnewb]

Wait, so you are trying to justify the use of derogatory terms because you dislike Thomas Sowell because you disagree with him. You think because he is not down for the struggle that you can just thrown him through the mud? I also think your characterization of Thomas is way off. Anyway I will not belabor that point.

My problem with Sowell isn't his critiques of the black community but rather that he makes his living making those critiques exclusively to white audiences.

In another thread, I mentioned Steve Benson, the grandson of ETB. He is an ex-Mormon who runs around giving talks about the evils of Mormonism to non-Mormons. In that thread, a few people made negative comments about him and not ONE person came to his defense (not even me). I suspect that is because, whether we agree with his specification conclusions about the "truthiness" of the Church or not, no one can argue that he is trying to HELP Mormons.

Likewise, Sowell is not trying to help the black community. He's trying to get rich selling books to WHITE people. In that context, referring to him as an "Uncle" is being quite polite because in, say, a black barbershop, we have MUCH more colorful terms for Sowell and his ilk

[USU78]

My how the poison of inherited entitlement has wormed its way into G-d's Church (assuming the bona fides of certain posters, which, I suppose, we must), clogging things up and making rational discourse impracticable!

 

A conservative statistician dares question the un-examinable race and socialist political verities and he's decried as a race traitor when he's mentioned in a conversation between [alleged] coreligionists.

 

All whites (especially white Mormon males) are entitled and evil, and none may speak to the issue, since it's an established unalterable fact that may not be questioned:  the thinking has been done, apparently.

 

Yet, I seem to hear the insistent tenor hurling back a tepid verbal attack in response to true institutional enormity:  "You're wrong, and always have been wrong!  I'm a man, no worse than any man."

 

And thus we are, most of us, doing our level best under increasingly trying circumstances and in the face of liberty-killing horrors.

 

All because we are never to be forgiven for the sins of others, not even our ancestors, whose taint we must ever bear.

 

Excuse me while I call "B******t!'

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wow! Wow! Wow!

I don't know a black person who hasn't, on some level, bought into the idea that WHITE people are more intelligent, industrious and moral (myself included).

I strongly suspect that at least one of us isn't seeing the situation clearly.

So I am to take blame for your understanding that has nothing to do with me. Maybe the issue has more to do with you than with me? I have never once thought what you just typed or ever propagated that idea. This goes to that idea that the white man is holding you down.  The big thing that gets fostered in the black community is that you guys cant let it go. Some one wrongs you (And they don't even have to wrong you specifically but just some one that is black) and you guys hang on to it and then it seems you paint us all that way.

 

Men are men we all have our issues. I do want to talk about these issues because one day maybe we can all just get along.

 

Ever seen the movie Die Hard III? There is some very applicable things that I see in what you are saying that apply to the character Zues as portrayed by Samuel L Jackson  Oh well.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My problem with Sowell isn't his critiques of the black community but rather that he makes his living making those critiques exclusively to white audiences.

In another thread, I mentioned Steve Benson, the grandson of ETB. He is an ex-Mormon who runs around giving talks about the evils of Mormonism to non-Mormons. In that thread, a few people made negative comments about him and not ONE person came to his defense (not even me). I suspect that is because, whether we agree with his specification conclusions about the "truthiness" of the Church or not, no one can argue that he is trying to HELP Mormons.

Likewise, Sowell is not trying to help the black community. He's trying to get rich selling books to WHITE people. In that context, referring to him as an "Uncle" is being quite polite because in, say, a black barbershop, we have MUCH more colorful terms for Sowell and his ilk

I think he is making his comments to everyone. The black community just calls him Uncle Tom and then ignores him. I think Sowell is trying to help the black community. We can look to liberalism and the failures it has brought the black community.  Case in point is Detroit. That epic failure is brought to you by 40 years of nothing but democrat policies. And look what it did to that once fine city.

 

You know, you make this life what it is. The only power people have over you is the power you give them.

[mormonnewb]

RETRACTED.

Edited March 29, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Tacenda]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/28/wendy-gay-family_n_5042297.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

 

 

Quote below is by Wendy, in answer to one of several questions......This was only 2012! 

 

"Well, it’s been really difficult to be honest. Before my son came out in 2012, we had been in our ward or the congregation for about 10 years. We had many, many dear friends in that ward. So when we had started to tell people in that ward that our son was gay, the friends that we had (not overnight but gradually) just sort of evaporated and the friends we thought we had… we didn’t have as much. It became what felt like an old-fashioned Amish shunning. When Jordan was 13 (two years ago, when he came out) and he passed the sacrament, which is similar to Catholic communion, there were people in the congregation who wouldn’t take it from my son, they would only take it from other boys. It was incredibly hurtful for me to see that happen. My son is 15 now and has never broken any of our church’s standards: he’s never even held a boy’s hand, he’s never had a boyfriend, he’s never broken any commandments that our church has set. It shouldn’t even be an issue if he had. But according to the rules that our Church has, he is still totally worthy to pass the sacrament, but people there still didn’t think he was good enough. So that was rough. And we would have people say pretty ignorant things to us. I had a woman tell me once that I should have my children taken away from me and given to some mother that would teach them to follow the prophet better. You know, my husband and I had assignments in that ward. I was teaching a class to the 15- and 16-year-old teenagers and my husband was president of the Elders Quorum, a group of older men of the congregation. We were getting so many complaints from other people in the ward that they didn’t want us working with their children or people in their family that we finally just stepped down from those callings. People wouldn’t sit by us in class, they wouldn’t talk to my son, they didn’t want him to go on scout camp outs. They wouldn’t let their sons go if my son was going and things like that.

We ended up switching wards. We are attending a different ward now. We have been there for about a year. And it’s been a little bit better, probably because we don’t know people as well so it’s not as hurtful when they’re not as friendly. We have a few people that have been supportive and sweet, but it’s still really hard. A few people will talk to us privately and thank us for what we’re doing, but there has not been anybody that’s been vocally supportive and will stand up for us. We feel very alone."